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Thread: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

  1. #11
    Youngin Daniel Stone's Avatar
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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    I found that doing the following helped to eliminate the dreaded "surge marks" when (I) used the 2509N reels:

    1. Use the included "flaps/wings". You know, those 4x5 black plastic inserts you clip into the reel after loading your film.
    2. Only load (4) sheets of film, NOT 6. Use the most inside and outside slots to hold your film.
    3. Use a SLOWER rotation speed. This takes some DIY testing, but from what I can recall from memory, I used a speed slightly slower than the "F"(film) setting. The slower rotation speed creates less turbulence/swirling action in the chemistry. Just my experience based on what I saw in my negatives.
    4. Use MORE chemistry than JOBO recommends for rotary development. I usually multiplied the JOBO 'recommended' volumes by 1.5X.
    5. DO NOT do the photo-flo/final rinse(for color) in the drum. Remove your processed film from the reels and do the photo-flo/final rinse step in a tray.
    6. Wash your reels THOROUGHLY every few cycles. In between runs, rinse them with HOT water and dry thoroughly(as in completely dry) before reloading.

    -Dan

  2. #12

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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Stone View Post
    I found that doing the following helped to eliminate the dreaded "surge marks" when (I) used the 2509N reels:

    1. Use the included "flaps/wings". You know, those 4x5 black plastic inserts you clip into the reel after loading your film.
    2. Only load (4) sheets of film, NOT 6. Use the most inside and outside slots to hold your film.
    3. Use a SLOWER rotation speed. This takes some DIY testing, but from what I can recall from memory, I used a speed slightly slower than the "F"(film) setting. The slower rotation speed creates less turbulence/swirling action in the chemistry. Just my experience based on what I saw in my negatives.
    4. Use MORE chemistry than JOBO recommends for rotary development. I usually multiplied the JOBO 'recommended' volumes by 1.5X.
    5. DO NOT do the photo-flo/final rinse(for color) in the drum. Remove your processed film from the reels and do the photo-flo/final rinse step in a tray.
    6. Wash your reels THOROUGHLY every few cycles. In between runs, rinse them with HOT water and dry thoroughly(as in completely dry) before reloading.

    -Dan
    Dan, thanks for sharing your approach to reducing the processing marks. My theory is that build-up on the reels is part of the problem. In any case, I am going to get a used 2509n (or 2) and I need a core for my existing tanks that came without the core
    www.paulchaplo.com
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  3. #13

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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Huub View Post
    I have been using HP5+ in XTOL 1+2 in 2509n reels, using a CPE-2 and i get those dreaded surge marks every now and then. Mostly they are very minor, showing as a little dark stripe at the very edge of the negative. Those marks i let for what they are, as a mark of the technique i used. Just like the numbers showing with my Linhof darkslides or the graflex cassettes.

    Every now and then a negative gets ruined by much bigger surge marks, showing up like a flowing patern along the sides of the negatives. These are of a very different category.

    I haven't found a real solution for it, but putting only 4 negatives in the reel, not using the middle slot helps. But even then sometimes a negative gets ruined, so i decided to change the film i am using. After using TMY-2 until it got much to expensive, started on Rollei RPX400. The few negatives i have shot look pretty nice, but the film is on a very thin base, which makes handling a bit tricky.
    You may not have enough active developer with dilute XTOL and such low volumes of solutions with the rotary method. I've never had a problem with XTOL 1:1 or 1:2 in deep tanks or roll film by inversion. When I use my 2509n reels I use stock XTOL. I had problems with exhausting the developer when using diluted. I like XTOL 1:1 for 120 with my Jobo machine. I never put more than 1 film per reel , so I use a 1520 and 1530 with 3 reels and 3 rolls total. You get great results of the dilute developer with no troubles.

  4. #14
    Huub
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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    You may not have enough active developer with dilute XTOL and such low volumes of solutions with the rotary method.
    Kodak documentation states that you need at least 100 ml stock per 4 sheets of 4x5. The 2521 tank asks for at least 300 ml of solution on the 2509n reel, which in 1+2 with 4 sheets of 4x5 film should work out perfectly. I prefer not to develop in stock solution due to short development times. Using 1+2 my N-2 development with HP5+ is about 6.5 minutes on 20 C; stock would bring that way under the 5 minutes i prefer to stick to as minumum time.

    Neither can photoflo be the cullprit, because i use a tray for the final rinse, for the reasons already stated. A cleaning of the tanks and spirals might be a consideration though, as they have build up a nice stain over the years.

  5. #15

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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    I''m not exactly certain what you mean by surge marks - do you have an illustration that shows them and their intensity?

    I use a 2509N reel WITHOUT WINGS in a 2500 tank and process four 4x5 films at a time, with the 'exposed' side inwards. I manually rotated on the 1509 roller base, consequently speed of rotation varies and is not repeatable. I use the recommended 270ml of liquid, use Ilfosol 3 and after fixing, wash in a tray.

    Assuming that by surge marks you mean a darkened line/zone on the negative is not this the normal result of rotary processing whereby the negative is being passed into and out of, the developing liquid? Consequently, any developing liquid retained on or in the reel adjacent to a sheet of film, would cause added development in the vicinity of that liquid, which over the lenght of the normal developing time would make a significant increase in the 'actual development time' of that locality.

    Surge implies waves, I would have thought using the 2509N wings would magnify any waves made by the film sheets as the pass into, through, and out, of the liquid. Even so I do not see how a wave shaped mark(s) would be caused as the wave would not 'rest' on any part of the negative during reel rotation.

    Of course I could be completely wrong and my thoughts nonsensical!!!!
    regards
    Tony

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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyowen View Post
    Surge implies waves, I would have thought using the 2509N wings would magnify any waves made by the film sheets as the pass into, through, and out, of the liquid. Even so I do not see how a wave shaped mark(s) would be caused as the wave would not 'rest' on any part of the negative during reel rotation.

    Of course I could be completely wrong and my thoughts nonsensical!!!!
    regards
    Tony
    Right. Makes great sense. Let's just call them mysterious processing artifacts experienced in rotary processing of 4x5 inch black & white film with a Jobo processor i.e. CPE2+ using Jobo 2500-series tanks and specifically the 2509 and 2509n reels. Bear with me if I use some barn-yard terms -- I am just a country boy

    You are right to point-out the definition of "surge" and wave action. Perhaps you could use your fluid dynamics knowledge to unravel why so many users have problems with the 2509n reels. I do not have an example to share; rather I am searching to find information on materials and process from users who do not experience the problem, so that I may replicate their positive results.
    www.paulchaplo.com
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  7. #17

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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by pchaplo View Post
    Perhaps you could use your fluid dynamics knowledge to unravel why so many users have problems with the 2509n reels.
    No idea.

    This thread is about surge marks when using the 2509n reel. Therefore I’m assuming surge marks do not occur during ‘correctly used’ tray or stand development.

    Stand development can be done with 2509N reel, and in both stand and tray development the negatives are fully submerged in the liquid for the total processing time.

    Therefore the only difference between the three forms of film development is that rotational development causes the film to continuously pass into and out of, the liquid for the duration of the development time.

    The ‘wings’ when fitted to the 2509N are much thicker than film and are at right angles to the film. Therefore, the wings act as bridge cut-waters (used to guide river flow around bridge piers) and cause turbulence of the developer.

    With or without wings slower rotation of the drum is better than faster rotation as any turbulence would be less.

    Similarly, four films fitted in the innermost and outermost positions would cause less turbulence those six films, since the restriction to (film) movement into and through the liquid flow is less.

    If the surge marks –whatever these are – are caused by local and (per-rotational-cycle) repeated agitation of the fluid then shorter rather than longer development time might minimize that effect.

    Not knowing exactly what is meant by, or the magnitude of, surge marks (hence request for illustration) I am not aware that my 2509N processing (four films, no wings, and 5 minute development) produces that effect.

    Regards
    Tony

  8. #18

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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    [QUOTE=tonyowen;1283025]The ‘wings’ are at right angles to the film/QUOTE]
    Typo, please ignore
    regards
    Tony

  9. #19

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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    Duolab123 successfully processes with XTOL in 1520 and 1530 tanks and up to 3 x 2509 reels with only 1 sheet per reel.

    Chauncey successfully processes fully-loaded (6 sheets of 4x5) in one 2509n reel (with wing installed) in a single-reel tank using a Jobo CPP2 processor that reverses rotation direction. Chauncey uses PMK Pyro and avoids Photoflo, opting for Edwal LFN instead.

    Let me know if I represented your successes accurately and thanks!
    www.paulchaplo.com
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  10. #20

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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by pchaplo View Post
    Duolab123 successfully processes with XTOL in 1520 and 1530 tanks and up to 3 x 2509 reels with only 1 sheet per reel.

    Chauncey successfully processes fully-loaded (6 sheets of 4x5) in one 2509n reel (with wing installed) in a single-reel tank using a Jobo CPP2 processor that reverses rotation direction. Chauncey uses PMK Pyro and avoids Photoflo, opting for Edwal LFN instead.

    Let me know if I represented your successes accurately and thanks!
    YOU CAN'T FIT A 2509N REEL INTO A 1500 SERIES TANK. I USE A 2523 OR 2553 1 OR 2 REELS, 6 SHEETS PER REEL, WITH A CPP2 PROCESSOR. I USE XTOL SOMETIMES STOCK SOMETIMES DILUTED 1&1 BUT AS WAS NOTED EARLIER BY HUUB FOR XTOL YOU NEED AT LEAST 100 mL OF STOCK FOR EACH 80 SQUARE INCHES OF FILM. SO FOR 12 SHEETS 300mL STOCK AND 300 mL WATER, AT 68F OR 20C THATS 9 MIN AND 15 SEC, TOTAL DEVELOPMENT TIME.

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