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Thread: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

  1. #1

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    Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    I know - you want to say "get an Expert tank." Ha! That won't help me right now.

    I have to work with what I have: Jobo CPE2+, HP5+ film, flexible on developer choice. My CPE2+ came with reels that may be usable so I just need a reel or two.

    As I get ready to proceed, I am reading about how a significant number of 2509n users experience processing marks on their black & white 4x5 film using this reel. One person modified the reel by trimming the "triangles" that hold the film in place -- to prevent what at least one person called "surge marks."

    Other users report no problems. How can this be? And so I wonder -- given that people are using the same reel design, how is it that some have processing marks that make their negatives unusable, while others have evenly developed negs?

    Has anyone figured why some folks have success and other failure with these reels? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences! If you are using the reel and it works great, producing beautiful, evenly developed film without the marks, please share details of your method, so that some of the "mojo" can rub-off on me.

    Paul
    www.paulchaplo.com
    "If you get a metal fragment in your eye, think magnet!" - Paul Chaplo

  2. #2

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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    I've had no problems with those reels using colour E6 and any black and white film I've thrown at it. I always use the fastest speed on a CPE2, and 250ml of juice. To be honest never heard of people having"surge" problems.

    I've always used the small tank that only takes one reel. Maybe the folk having problems are using bigger tanks, or too much juice, or the slower rotation speed?

  3. #3
    Huub
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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    I have been using HP5+ in XTOL 1+2 in 2509n reels, using a CPE-2 and i get those dreaded surge marks every now and then. Mostly they are very minor, showing as a little dark stripe at the very edge of the negative. Those marks i let for what they are, as a mark of the technique i used. Just like the numbers showing with my Linhof darkslides or the graflex cassettes.

    Every now and then a negative gets ruined by much bigger surge marks, showing up like a flowing patern along the sides of the negatives. These are of a very different category.

    I haven't found a real solution for it, but putting only 4 negatives in the reel, not using the middle slot helps. But even then sometimes a negative gets ruined, so i decided to change the film i am using. After using TMY-2 until it got much to expensive, started on Rollei RPX400. The few negatives i have shot look pretty nice, but the film is on a very thin base, which makes handling a bit tricky.

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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by pchaplo View Post
    ...I know - you want to say "get an Expert tank."...
    Not only want to, I will. Get an Expert drum.

    Quote Originally Posted by pchaplo View Post
    ...That won't help me right now. I have to work with what I have: Jobo CPE2+...
    Yes, it will help you. You don't have to work with the CPE2+. In your situation -- and I've been in your situation -- I'd either dispose of the CPE2+ or put it in storage, then get an Expert drum. You don't need a processor. Either roll the drum by hand on one of these


    or some other arrangement of your own construction. Search here for previous threads showing what others have built for that purpose. Pour liquids into the drum using something like this:


    You will never reliably eliminate uneven development using a 2509n reel and rotary processing. A few specific films can be successfully processed in those reels using inversion agitation, but most will bend too much and end up with substantial scratches, especially when loaded in the outer slots. Bottom line: there's never been anything designed and built for sheet film processing at home that can hold a candle to Expert drums. Give in, get one and be happy.

  5. #5
    tgtaylor's Avatar
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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    Those dark marks along the sides of the negatives are most likely from photoflo build-up on the reel in that area. I bought my reels new and for the first year or so developed B&W by inversion putting photoflo directly in the tank with the reel. After some time those dark bands began to appear. So I switched to rotary processing and applying photoflo off the reels in a small plastic box that sidewalk chalk came in. The marks disappeared and never came back. I theorize that the photoflo build-up interferred with the flow of the chemistry.

    Don't modify the reel by removing the film stops. That's one way to determine if the sheet is correctly seated in its slot. I process 6 sheets at a time without any scratches, etc. Just make sure that the emulsion is inward toward the post.

    Thomas

  6. #6
    ic-racer's Avatar
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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by pchaplo View Post

    I have to work with what I have: Jobo CPE2+, HP5+ film, flexible on developer choice. My CPE2+ came with reels that may be usable so I just need a reel or two.
    l
    What kind of problems are you having?

  7. #7

    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    I've never had any problems with 2509n reels. I use 1 or 2 tanks in the appropriate drums loaded with either 4 or 6 negs in my Jobo at speed P. I'm using PMK Pyro so solution quantity is either 300 or 450ml per reel. The only time I ever had a problem with 4x5 was when I borrowed a friend's 3010 Expert drum. Go figure.
    PS I would never use Photoflo for anything other than holding down the bottom of the trash can. Edwal LFN is the only way to go.

  8. #8

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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by tgtaylor View Post
    Those dark marks along the sides of the negatives are most likely from photoflo build-up on the reel in that area. I bought my reels new and for the first year or so developed B&W by inversion putting photoflo directly in the tank with the reel. After some time those dark bands began to appear. So I switched to rotary processing and applying photoflo off the reels in a small plastic box that sidewalk chalk came in. The marks disappeared and never came back. I theorize that the photoflo build-up interferred with the flow of the chemistry.
    Thomas
    Thomas, That's interesting that Photoflo could be the culprit. Thanks for replying!
    Paul
    www.paulchaplo.com
    "If you get a metal fragment in your eye, think magnet!" - Paul Chaplo

  9. #9

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    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chauncey Walden View Post
    I've never had any problems with 2509n reels. I use 1 or 2 tanks in the appropriate drums loaded with either 4 or 6 negs in my Jobo at speed P. I'm using PMK Pyro so solution quantity is either 300 or 450ml per reel. The only time I ever had a problem with 4x5 was when I borrowed a friend's 3010 Expert drum. Go figure.
    PS I would never use Photoflo for anything other than holding down the bottom of the trash can. Edwal LFN is the only way to go.
    Chauncey, thanks for chiming-in as a user who never had a problem with 2509n reels. I will located some Edwal LFN as an alternative to Photoflo. Interesting that Thomas also pointed to photoflo. I have never used PMK Pyro -- is that stock solution, or a certain dilution? Do you get it from Freestyle. I seem to recall that Ansel had Pyro-stained hands; is that right?
    www.paulchaplo.com
    "If you get a metal fragment in your eye, think magnet!" - Paul Chaplo

  10. #10

    Re: Jobo 2509n reels: reading about surge marks; is there a solution?

    PMK stock is diluted 1:3:100. I get mine from Photographers' Formulary but Freestyle also handles the Formulary kits. Shelf life is very long. Pyro and amidol developers will both stain hands BUT I would never put my hands in either.

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