Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 23

Thread: filter holder/system for wide angle/90mm lens on 4x5

  1. #11

    Join Date
    Sep 1998
    Posts
    10,334

    Re: filter holder/system for wide angle/90mm lens on 4x5

    Quote Originally Posted by Old-N-Feeble View Post
    If you decide to try filters on the rear of the lens then consider gels. Those won't cause focus shift nor image degradation.
    As much as thicker glass or acrylics.. Anything behind the rear element, regardless of its thickness, will cause a focus shift of 1/3 rd the thickness of whatever it is. But a scratch, fingerprint, dust, etc on a gel behind the lens is just as detrimental as if they were on glass behind the lens. So is lack of filter flatness with a gel.

  2. #12

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    South Texas
    Posts
    1,833

    Re: filter holder/system for wide angle/90mm lens on 4x5

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post
    As much as thicker glass or acrylics.. Anything behind the rear element, regardless of its thickness, will cause a focus shift of 1/3 rd the thickness of whatever it is. But a scratch, fingerprint, dust, etc on a gel behind the lens is just as detrimental as if they were on glass behind the lens. So is lack of filter flatness with a gel.
    Those are valid points... I just assume no one would use a damaged gel filter. But, of course, assumptions are just that.

  3. #13

    Join Date
    Sep 1998
    Location
    Oregon and Austria
    Posts
    1,891

    Re: filter holder/system for wide angle/90mm lens on 4x5

    Bob is correct in everything he says.... however, optimum performance is not always necessary or possible. You need to find the right system for the type of work you do.

    A few thoughts about the issues raised:

    Light fall-off: You can't avoid this with a 90mm (or shorter) lens, but it may not be that objectionable or correctable. If you plan on shooting black-and-white, then much of the fall-off problem can be corrected at the printing stage (the same with color neg and digital processing). You just need to be sure you give adequate exposure (i.e., be aware that the edges and corners are getting less exposure than the meter reading!). If you are doing critical work with transparencies, then a center filter might be worth investing in. FWIW, I and many others use a 90mm regularly without a center filter.

    Vignetting: One thin screw-on filter on the front of a 90mm lens should not be a problem with regards to vignetting. Two will start to impinge on the image circle, but you can avoid vignetting by not using the extremes of movements that would show vignetting. I like the smaller f/8 version of the 90mm for its size and weight, and I have done my share of vignetting with it, both from filters and from simply using more movements than the (somewhat smaller than the f/4.5 90s) image circle can handle. One way to avoid filter vignetting is to buy a step-up ring and use a couple sizes larger filters on you 90mm. You could just leave the step-up ring in place. This is more expensive, of course, but a viable solution. (If you get a center filter, it acts as a step-up ring as well, forcing you to buy larger filters). Check for vignetting by stopping down to taking aperture and making sure you can see the entire aperture from the cut-corners of your ground glass (or see all corners when looking back through the lens). One more comment here since you're stacking filters: If you don't use movements, two screw-in filters will work fine; it's when you need to use the edges of the image circle that you'll get into trouble.

    The filter system you linked to looks alright to me, kind of like a poor-man's mat box. It's hard to tell if it's well built, but if so, then the issue (since you need to stack filters) would be to ensure that 100mm filters will be large enough to not vignette that far away from the lens. You'd have to try it out.

    Placing filters behind the lens: Yes, as Bob says, you risk degrading the image. The amount of degradation depends on the optical quality of the filter you use and it's flatness when mounted behind the lens. I have used good quality coated glass filters behind the lens (B+H or Heliopan) and had good results. I could see no noticeable degradation in 11x14 enlargements. Keep in mind that you'll have to focus with the rear filter in place, especially if it's glass, as it will cause a focus shift. Doing this with a stronger ND filter might present difficulties. Optical gels behind the lens are best in regard to focus shift, but they must be mounted flat and parallel (they used to make gel holders for the back of lenses...) and kept meticulously clean. I have a bunch of gels that I used to use in the studio, but they are just impractical for the kind of field work I do now. I've settled on good-quality screw-in filters.

    If you need the faster f/4.5 lens or not: If you aren't shooting with lots of movement, you can easily get by with one of the slower f/8-f/6.3 lenses (the Nikkor has the largest image circle in this category). The image quality is equal if not superior. I find focusing with the slower lenses to be no problem (I have a host of smaller slower lenses including the Nikkor M f/9 lenses, the Fujinon a f/9 lenses, etc.). The upside is that the lens will be smaller, lighter and take smaller (and thus less-expensive) filters. Stepping up to larger filters to avoid vignetting would be cheaper too. If you plan to use a lot of front rise or tilt/swing (e.g., for architecture or if you really needed that extra stop for some reason) then maybe the faster lens would be justified.

    Hope this helps,

    Doremus

  4. #14

    Join Date
    Sep 1998
    Posts
    10,334

    Re: filter holder/system for wide angle/90mm lens on 4x5

    Quote Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder View Post
    Bob is correct in everything he says.... however, optimum performance is not always necessary or possible. You need to find the right system for the type of work you do.

    A few thoughts about the issues raised:

    Light fall-off: You can't avoid this with a 90mm (or shorter) lens, but it may not be that objectionable or correctable. If you plan on shooting black-and-white, then much of the fall-off problem can be corrected at the printing stage (the same with color neg and digital processing). You just need to be sure you give adequate exposure (i.e., be aware that the edges and corners are getting less exposure than the meter reading!). If you are doing critical work with transparencies, then a center filter might be worth investing in. FWIW, I and many others use a 90mm regularly without a center filter.

    Vignetting: One thin screw-on filter on the front of a 90mm lens should not be a problem with regards to vignetting. Two will start to impinge on the image circle, but you can avoid vignetting by not using the extremes of movements that would show vignetting. I like the smaller f/8 version of the 90mm for its size and weight, and I have done my share of vignetting with it, both from filters and from simply using more movements than the (somewhat smaller than the f/4.5 90s) image circle can handle. One way to avoid filter vignetting is to buy a step-up ring and use a couple sizes larger filters on you 90mm. You could just leave the step-up ring in place. This is more expensive, of course, but a viable solution. (If you get a center filter, it acts as a step-up ring as well, forcing you to buy larger filters). Check for vignetting by stopping down to taking aperture and making sure you can see the entire aperture from the cut-corners of your ground glass (or see all corners when looking back through the lens). One more comment here since you're stacking filters: If you don't use movements, two screw-in filters will work fine; it's when you need to use the edges of the image circle that you'll get into trouble.

    The filter system you linked to looks alright to me, kind of like a poor-man's mat box. It's hard to tell if it's well built, but if so, then the issue (since you need to stack filters) would be to ensure that 100mm filters will be large enough to not vignette that far away from the lens. You'd have to try it out.

    Placing filters behind the lens: Yes, as Bob says, you risk degrading the image. The amount of degradation depends on the optical quality of the filter you use and it's flatness when mounted behind the lens. I have used good quality coated glass filters behind the lens (B+H or Heliopan) and had good results. I could see no noticeable degradation in 11x14 enlargements. Keep in mind that you'll have to focus with the rear filter in place, especially if it's glass, as it will cause a focus shift. Doing this with a stronger ND filter might present difficulties. Optical gels behind the lens are best in regard to focus shift, but they must be mounted flat and parallel (they used to make gel holders for the back of lenses...) and kept meticulously clean. I have a bunch of gels that I used to use in the studio, but they are just impractical for the kind of field work I do now. I've settled on good-quality screw-in filters.

    If you need the faster f/4.5 lens or not: If you aren't shooting with lots of movement, you can easily get by with one of the slower f/8-f/6.3 lenses (the Nikkor has the largest image circle in this category). The image quality is equal if not superior. I find focusing with the slower lenses to be no problem (I have a host of smaller slower lenses including the Nikkor M f/9 lenses, the Fujinon a f/9 lenses, etc.). The upside is that the lens will be smaller, lighter and take smaller (and thus less-expensive) filters. Stepping up to larger filters to avoid vignetting would be cheaper too. If you plan to use a lot of front rise or tilt/swing (e.g., for architecture or if you really needed that extra stop for some reason) then maybe the faster lens would be justified.

    Hope this helps,

    Doremus
    Just to be sure. B&H is a camera store. They do not make filters. Maybe you meant B+W? B &W is black and white, not a filter company.

  5. #15

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    South Texas
    Posts
    1,833

    Re: filter holder/system for wide angle/90mm lens on 4x5


  6. #16
    Huub
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    90

    Re: filter holder/system for wide angle/90mm lens on 4x5

    Doremus sums it up pretty well regarding the use of filters and especially in doing black and white the fall off with a 90 mm is easely solved in the printing stage. One more thing to consider is that your camera of choice doesn't allow for massive amounts of movements. Using either an older f8 SA or the f6.8 Grandagon i had a hard time to vignet those lenses on my old 45A, even when stacking two filters.

  7. #17

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Sheridan, Colorado
    Posts
    871

    Re: filter holder/system for wide angle/90mm lens on 4x5

    I have several wide-angles -- even the Schnieder 47mm XL -- which has a 67mm filter thread. As I normally have a UV filter on my lenses, and sometimes want to add one or two more, I opted to standardize ALL of my lenses to 77mm filter threads. This allows me to put three filters on any lens without vignetting. Depending on the filter thread of the lens you will use, you might need to use a step-up ring to avoid vignetting. The size and need for a step up ring depends on the angle of coverage of the lens you will use and the filter thread on that lens. You might not need a step-up ring at all, but if you do, you will need to determine when vignetting will start to occur. First test your lens with three filters (or the maximum number you would ever use). No vignetting? No problem. Vignetting? Try a step-up ring that you think might work and retest. No need to buy larger filters just yet -- place your current filters inside the step-up ring and retest -- until you get the right step-up ring -- then order filters. Getting additional step-up rings to the same size, for your other lenses, will make your life easier.

    Square filter holders have to be pretty wide to avoid vignetting. Cokin, for example, offers the small A and large P holders, but even the large holder is a problem with very wide lenses, because they stick out so far. It's like putting five round filters on the lens. I use a Cokin P holder.

    I'd avoid the rear filter approach. It's too big a pain. The only rear filters I use are round filters on the rear of my Mamiya 37mm fisheye -- with step-up rings from 40.5mm to 77mm. You can read about it and see all of Fuji's LF lenses at:

    www.subclub.org/fujinon/index.htm

  8. #18

    Join Date
    Sep 1998
    Posts
    10,334

    Re: filter holder/system for wide angle/90mm lens on 4x5

    Quote Originally Posted by xkaes View Post
    I have several wide-angles -- even the Schnieder 47mm XL -- which has a 67mm filter thread. As I normally have a UV filter on my lenses, and sometimes want to add one or two more, I opted to standardize ALL of my lenses to 77mm filter threads. This allows me to put three filters on any lens without vignetting. Depending on the filter thread of the lens you will use, you might need to use a step-up ring to avoid vignetting. The size and need for a step up ring depends on the angle of coverage of the lens you will use and the filter thread on that lens. You might not need a step-up ring at all, but if you do, you will need to determine when vignetting will start to occur. First test your lens with three filters (or the maximum number you would ever use). No vignetting? No problem. Vignetting? Try a step-up ring that you think might work and retest. No need to buy larger filters just yet -- place your current filters inside the step-up ring and retest -- until you get the right step-up ring -- then order filters. Getting additional step-up rings to the same size, for your other lenses, will make your life easier.

    Square filter holders have to be pretty wide to avoid vignetting. Cokin, for example, offers the small A and large P holders, but even the large holder is a problem with very wide lenses, because they stick out so far. It's like putting five round filters on the lens. I use a Cokin P holder.

    I'd avoid the rear filter approach. It's too big a pain. The only rear filters I use are round filters on the rear of my Mamiya 37mm fisheye -- with step-up rings from 40.5mm to 77mm. You can read about it and see all of Fuji's LF lenses at:

    www.subclub.org/fujinon/index.htm
    This presumes no or very little movements, especially tilts and swings with a base tilt camera.

  9. #19
    tgtaylor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Posts
    3,830

    Re: filter holder/system for wide angle/90mm lens on 4x5

    Here's what I use with my Toyo's: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._Requires.html

    Get one adapter ring that will mount on the filter threads of your largest lens and stop-down rings for the rest of your lens. I keep all mounted on the holder, which I store in a Lee case, and just remove those not needed. Initially I used HiTech and resins for grads and ND and Cokin resin for B&W, color, and IR. I have since migrated over to Schneider and Format glass filters for B&W & Color. If the diameter of your lens is greater than 95mm, you'll have to use the Cokin X-Pro: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...pter_Ring.html

    Thomas

  10. #20

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Sheridan, Colorado
    Posts
    871

    Re: filter holder/system for wide angle/90mm lens on 4x5

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post
    This presumes no or very little movements, especially tilts and swings with a base tilt camera.
    Sure, but you can test this -- if you happen to know how much swinging/tilting/shifting/rising you will do with the lens. With many wide-angle lenses their is little room for movements even without any filters! And with a pretty collapsed bellows you are physically limited to small movements anyway. My 47mm just barely covers 4x5 but I can't move much at infinity even with a recessed board due to the nearly completely collapsed bellows. My 105mm just barely covers 4x5 but I can't move much at infinity due to the small image circle. But I find I don't need, nor use, much movement with my very wide-angle lenses.

Similar Threads

  1. Filter system for Tomiyama Art Panorama 617 with Nikon 90mm lens
    By Mike Banks in forum Cameras & Camera Accessories
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 20-Apr-2012, 03:51
  2. Schneider Kreuznach 90mm 4X5 Wide Angle lens
    By David Woods in forum Lenses & Lens Accessories
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 5-Apr-2010, 20:02
  3. Linhof drop in 70mm filter holder & wide angle shade
    By Steven Golber in forum Lenses & Lens Accessories
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 8-Apr-2009, 09:46
  4. center filter in wide angle lens
    By Cal Eng in forum Lenses & Lens Accessories
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 24-Jul-2001, 09:05

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •