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Thread: Wisner Apologetics

  1. #1

    Wisner Apologetics

    I write this as a response to many threads in the last month or two related to the Wisner Company, Cameras and owner.

    Several years ago I began a search for a new (or used) wooden field camera. The two year search ended in the purchase of a used Wisner Technical Field, 4x5, from Chuck Farmer, a great guy by the way. He checked the 5 year old camera out thoroughly for me and said it was nice, near new. I bought it without regret. I've used Sinar P2, Toyo G, Calumet, Ebony and Wista Cameras, and this TF was such a joy to use (not just look at) that it is now my main studio 4x5. I use it almost daily along with several hasselblads that I've used for almost 30 years. I use the Wisner for everything from portraits and commercial work to forensics for local attornies. I also do a great deal of fine art work that requires working outdoors, so I also wanted a camera with longer bellows than my Wista and just as light.

    I had the opportunity to look at and play with a 4x5 Wisner Pocket Expedition over about a two year period at a local camera store. No one purchased it over this time and I finally bought it. All the talk on the internet about this camera being so fussy was simply opinion as I found it easy to use and set up. The controls are not a problem for my narrow fingers.

    I look at all of my Wisner purchases as very prudent and well thought out and I have not had a problem with either camera. When I wanted the back of the PE modified to use Calumet roll backs (it was one of the first 35 PE's produced) I called Ron Wisner and asked him how long it would take. He said he could have it out in a week. I had heard of delays through the forums and received a solid promise from him that this would not be the case. He actually had the camera two days in shop and back to me in a week. All professionally handled and ahead of schedule.

    One new, one used and I prefer these to all my other cameras. The Toyo G is the biggest, heaviest, sturdiest, most rigid camera I currently own and I still prefer to use the Wisners, in studio and out. Mr. Wisner may not be the best businessman according to posts here, but he builds a camera that fits my needs, and I bet a lot of Wisner owners out there feel the same. Both of my Wisner cameras are sturdy, full of movements, long in bellows and have wide angle capabilities no less convenient than other wooden cameras. The wide angle bellows for my TF works great with my 90mm and 65mm lenses and I can use the 65 on my PE without a bag bellows and have plenty of movement with the geared rise.

    I do not have stock in the Wisner Company nor do I have a stake in his business viability. I do feel that any photographer who is looking for a fine wooden field camera should not stop considering a Wisner just because of what he reads in these forums. Who he buys from is another decision entirely. A good supportive dealer can be a great help. Buying a used (or new) Wisner from someone other than the factory may alleviate some anxiety. But even with the delays we all seem aware of, Mr. Wisner seems to get the job done sooner or ( many may agree) with later. I do not believe he is out to defraud anyone. He does build a camera that can't be matched for the price.

    Wisner's business practices may be disorganized to his detriment, but my experience with his company has been positive. Good communication was an important factor in my experience. He said, she said, second and third hand information stated as fact serves no good purpose. Complaints with Wisner should go to Wisner and an effort made to correct things before ever being brought up on these pages. I for one, do not want to see one of the reasons for the revival of large format go under or retire early because of out of control rantings. Factual information by an injured party may get results if all forms of private communication has ended and there is an impass, but many of these attacks are defaming.

    At this point I hope much of this has ended and those of you with positive Wisner experiences will speak up. I know you're out there.

    Good light and photo on.

    Gary

  2. #2

    Join Date
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    471

    Wisner Apologetics

    My first LF camera was a 8x10 pocket expedition that i bought used. The reason i chose a Wisner in my search was because the quality matched and in most cases exceeded other manufacturers. Now i think it would be safe to say that Mr. Wisner may never be given an honorary MBA from Harvard. But what many people fall to realize is the repercussions if Wisner Manufacturing made drastic changes. Ron could triple his work force, hire production schedulars, expand his machine shop and bellows departments. Now this would be all fine and well but this gorgeous 8x20 expedition i just bought now cost 7000.00 and it's out of my league. As for the 8x10 pocket expedition.....After a couple of years of use this little camera is still teaching me all of its movements and performing beyond what i expected. For instance I have an old 14 1/2 verito with the mounting flange on the end of the rear barrel, which puts all the lens sticking out from the lens board. ( very heavy to say the least) Normally i would support this lens with a monopod. Being without the monopod the other day I needed to use the verito for a portrait. This put a lot of strain on the front standard. The pocket expedition performed admirably, solid as a rock. My advice to someone who is in the market for a camera is to not believe anything you read in these forums, myself included ,but do as i did and go out and compare cameras and see for yourself. I think you'll find a Wisner will matchup against anything

  3. #3

    Join Date
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    Wisner Apologetics

    Sorry but for me it sounds like an advertisment for Wisner.

    I did no bussiness with him and I will never do it anyway, because there are to much bad comments on all different LF forums on him.
    In Europe a company like Wisner would not exist anymore since a long time.
    To have a bad reputation in EU is the killer for every bussiness. But I'm a lucky guy I do not like wooden cameras anyway, but if I ever would buy a woody then it would be a Ebony, Lotus, or Tachihara and never a Wisner but I'ts only my personell thinking about!
    I do no bussiness with a company with bad reputation! I don't want gray hairs because of the troubles.
    Just my opinion!

  4. #4

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    Wisner Apologetics

    I ADORE my 4x5 Tech. It's as simple as that.

  5. #5

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    Wisner Apologetics

    Wisner Apology is needed!

  6. #6
    Octogenarian
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    Wisner Apologetics

    Gary and Robert,

    The criticisms of Ron Wisner on this website were hardly ever aimed at his products. Mostly at his business practices. I have owned two Wisner 4X5 tech fields. As far as I'm concerned, they both were excellent examples of wooden flatbed folding field cameras. For the most part, they were well built and operated flawlessly.

    The grounds for the complaints seem to be based on the way Ron Wisner makes promises that he fails to keep. For example, I'm still waiting for the newsletter that I paid him for in advance and never received. Others are waiting for items that they ordered months, or years ago. After many annoying phone calls, they were finally told that the item was shipped. Sometimes, it wasn't.

    Being a manufacturer, Ron should have set up a network of dealerships and sold his products exclusively through those outlets. Instead, he often sells his products directly to the customer, bypassing the dealer and keeping the middleman's profit for himself. He charges to the customer's credit card at the time of the order and then takes months, even years, to deliver the item. In effect, borrowing the customer's money to finance his business. Legitimate dealers charge the credit card when the item is shipped.

  7. #7

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    Wisner Apologetics

    As I recall from my freshman logic course this is called the Fallacy of the Straw Man or something like that, ie. invent an argument that nobody has made and then refute it. Few if any people have quesitoned Mr. Wisner's products when they have been bought from a retail store and thoroughly checked out in advance of the purchase. The criticisms surround his business practices, e.g. taking people's money with the promise that something would be sold or repaired by a certain time and then not delivering for years after the promised date but not returning the money when requested to do so, making false statements to the effect that the item has been shipped when it hasn't been or saying that it is ready and will be shipped the next day and it isn't, defective products bought from the factory (i.e. without a reputable retailer to check the product out) and similar practices. Often the fproblems have been compounded by a failure to respond to phone calls and e mail messages. So the fact that you like your camera is interesting but is totally unresponsive to the types of Wisner problems that typically are posted here and in other LF forums.
    Brian Ellis
    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you do criticize them you'll be
    a mile away and you'll have their shoes.

  8. #8

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    Wisner Apologetics

    Brian, I speak solely from my personal experience. My own dealings with the Wisner Co. is all I can attest to. My last purchase from them, they not only met their lead time, they beat it by two weeks. But Like I said, that is my dealings with Wisner. As I posted before, I hold this forum and all who participate of the highest esteem. This forum is a wealth of info with many intelligent and talented people. So as someone new to ULF I find this forum priceless. But what concerns me are the defamatory remarks and the piling on of others who have never even owned a Wisner. These blatant attacks not only diminishes the integrity of this forum but speaks volumns to the character and integrity of those who make them.

  9. #9

    Wisner Apologetics

    As Brian stated, I cannot remember anyone having a problem with the product in any way shape or form at any time. Ron has clearly made some very positive contributions to the world of LF by being ingenious and creative.

    All I can say is that when you work hard to put together enought financial resources to make a serious LF purchase and you make the payment and your expectations are every day for the delivery man to knock on the door as promised and months go by with no package for you, it would be hard for me to believe that you would not be climbing the walls with concern. Probably the most helpless feeling in the world.

    That is why I empathize with those that are caught up in these unfortunate events. They are honest people that are an integral part of the LF community and they did not ask for it or deserve to be treated like this. To disregard their position is essentially saying that they should just "get over it". You don't think that they call almost daily pleading for a resolution?

    At this stage of the game, no excuses suffice. As as long as there are customer service shortcomings there will be an unfortunate string of posts commensurate with the activity.

    Nothing would make me happier than to be able to honestly recommend a newcomer to this company in the same manner as I recommend people to Canham, Ebony, Walker, Wehman, Phillips and others. The more integrity there is within the infrastructure of this niche business, the better it is for everyone in it in the long term. When we accept a standard of performance that we know is far less than any reasonable person would expect, we only reinforce the sub standard practices. And this is particularly agrivating when it is an anomoly to otherwise sparkling customer service from other manufacturers.

    Cheers!

  10. #10
    Is that a Hassleblad? Brian Vuillemenot's Avatar
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    Wisner Apologetics

    Hi Dan,

    I'm curious as to why you have such a personal beef with Wisner, and have pursued such an aggressive campaign against him. Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you as to his unacceptable business practices. Did Wisner wrong you at some point in the past?
    Brian Vuillemenot

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