What Happened here? Film Developing Help Please

[bob carnie]

Tobias

grey backgrounds are very difficult to keep even.... I even give initial manual inversion and twist as well bang the bottom for the first 15 seconds when using a jobo then put it on the machine.

Photo flow marks will print white... this really looks like insufficient agitation in the very beginning.


Bob

[Tobias Key]

Tobias

grey backgrounds are very difficult to keep even.... I even give initial manual inversion and twist as well bang the bottom for the first 15 seconds when using a jobo then put it on the machine.

Photo flow marks will print white... this really looks like insufficient agitation in the very beginning.


Bob

Thanks Bob, everything you are saying is really helpful. At the moment I'm putting all my developing gear through the dishwasher to rule out contamination, then I'm certainly going to try what you say. I think I got thrown off course when I first used the tank, I think I got some Tanol that was old, and that has lead me to fix things that probably didn't need fixing. I originally agitated more aggressively than I do now but changed it along the way, I think I've mistaken uneven developing for surge marks on other negs and so haven't solved the problem. With the initial agitation should I do agitate for a full minute after the fill is complete and then do 2 inversions at the top of every minute? Does that sound like a reasonable staring point?

[bob carnie]

Tobias

I think a full minute initial agitation is too much... I count 15-20 seconds and I try to get the developer in really fast... no pre soak btw as people have issues with minus development areas when using a pre soak.

then I will revert to my normal dev, in my case it is rotary process.... I think this is something that should be part of everyone's development procedure as it seems to give lots of people here and on other sites huge problems.

With very complicated scenes one never sees this issue as the streaking is camoflaged.. but grey backgrounds or open grey sky's are really unforgiving.

Bob

Thanks Bob, everything you are saying is really helpful. At the moment I'm putting all my developing gear through the dishwasher to rule out contamination, then I'm certainly going to try what you say. I think I got thrown off course when I first used the tank, I think I got some Tanol that was old, and that has lead me to fix things that probably didn't need fixing. I originally agitated more aggressively than I do now but changed it along the way, I think I've mistaken uneven developing for surge marks on other negs and so haven't solved the problem. With the initial agitation should I do agitate for a full minute after the fill is complete and then do 2 inversions at the top of every minute? Does that sound like a reasonable staring point?

[Lenny Eiger]

I would also suggest a pre-soak. That usually stops this in its tracks... I have no issues with minus development, not sure what Bob has experienced in this regard...

I'm using a Jobo these days, but I used to agitate for the first 30 and the last 30 and 6 seconds every 30 seconds. It worked fine...

I also disagree about the comments on the photoflo... I use a little extra Formaflo and leave it in there for 3 minutes. It's supposed to allow the film to dry in one single sheet and when you leave it in long enough it actually does that....

Lenny

[djdister]

Your original post said the marks are slightly greasy and irregular in nature, which still owe more to an overuse of Photoflo than anything else. An overly high concentration of wetting agent leaves greasy marks on the film, potentially on either side. And due to the potential irregularity of Photoflo scum, they will not leave any sort of regular marks as they drip and/or evaporate off the surface of the film. If you do research on agitation problems in the developer, you will see very different patterns of density showing up on the negative, relative to the edges of the film, contact of the film edges with the tank, and etc.

Those marks are not symptomatic of agitation problems in the developer or fixer. After washing the film normally for 30 minutes (or whatever), try just a couple of drops of Photoflo with distilled water in the final rinse only.

[bob carnie]

My terms- Minus development means that something has prevented the developer to fully cover the grey backround and I have seen many , odd shapes due to this, It also can happen in mural printing when developer is uneven and slow to
get on areas of the paper.

the dark pattern is because developer has not gotten on this paticular section of the film the OP shows. thus my term Minus Development..these odd areas will print dark.

I have seen in Jobo the exact same Minus Development ,,, major road ruts in grey backgrounds that were only solved by the agitation sequence explained above.

I do not see how we can be discussing photo flow marks... as they would be plus density on the print or scan and show up as white.... I have seen photo flow issues, they are white in the positive form, and as M Wesik pointed out
if its on the base side of the film you can wipe it off, if it is on the emulsion side of the film you are SOOL.

There was a thread on APUG about uneven marks due to pre soak.. its all about getting the emulsion ready at the same time.

[djdister]

If you want to see a textbook example of uneven developing, look at the 8x10 xray shot (cropped) by Randy in the "Waters Edge" thread. This looks nothing like that.

[DennisD]

If you can't see a film or deposit on the negative surface, those spots really wouldn't be caused by photo flow. Also doubtful that photo flow deposits would form in those shapes and add that much density. If there's nothing on the negative surface, what exactly is the "greasy" look you refer to ? Excess photo flow might appear greasy, but it would be visible on the film surface.

IMHO the marks are related to the development process --- The observed pattern is strange and really suggests uneven development. The question is what prevented proper development ? There are some unanswered questions:

- Did anything come in contact with the negatives before you loaded them into the combiplan holder ?
- We're all the negatives in the same development batch affected ?
- is this a random occurrence ? Are there particular conditions when it occurs ?
- what's your film handling procedure ? You may have laid the film down on something that has affected development
- how is your film stored ? Dampness or moisture may have had some effect on the film at some point.

It's also very possible that, in a combiplan tank, one negative might have touched against another or stuck to another long enough for the developing to progress unevenly, if only briefly, perhaps at the outset.

Cleaning the combiplan tank and film holder carefully is a good starting point.

[Tobias Key]

If you can't see a film or deposit on the negative surface, those spots really wouldn't be caused by photo flow. Also doubtful that photo flow deposits would form in those shapes and add that much density. If there's nothing on the negative surface, what exactly is the "greasy" look you refer to ? Excess photo flow might appear greasy, but it would be visible on the film surface.

IMHO the marks are related to the development process --- The observed pattern is strange and really suggests uneven development. The question is what prevented proper development ? There are some unanswered questions:

- Did anything come in contact with the negatives before you loaded them into the combiplan holder ?
- We're all the negatives in the same development batch affected ?
- is this a random occurrence ? Are there particular conditions when it occurs ?
- what's your film handling procedure ? You may have laid the film down on something that has affected development
- how is your film stored ? Dampness or moisture may have had some effect on the film at some point.

It's also very possible that, in a combiplan tank, one negative might have touched against another or stuck to another long enough for the developing to progress unevenly, if only briefly, perhaps at the outset.

Cleaning the combiplan tank and film holder carefully is a good starting point.

Hi Dennis

I'm inclined to agree that it's in the development process. It's either something contaminating the film before development, something like trapped water dripping out of the filling valve when I put the lid on, but two sheets sticking together momentarily might be a good call. Next time I have a batch film to develop I'm going to up the initial agitation and be a little more vigorous. It's a tricky problem because it's minimal enough to be disguised in most negatives, so it's something that may have happened before but wasn't visible.

I'm just going to have to shoot some film and develop as meticulously as I can and see what happens.

[DennisD]

Tobias,

A couple of thoughts---
1) I've used combiplan tanks and like them. In this case you might try leaving the middle slot empty (thus allowing more space between sheets). See if there's still an issue. You need not aggressively agitate because the film could dislodge from the slot or the holding guides. Just consistent agitation for the initial startup as others suggested. (With fewer sheets loaded, aggressive agitation might create more fluid pressure on the film)

2) Have you developed film from different original batches or film of different types/brands and experienced this very same problem ?
I would want to be sure the film itself did not have some hidden issue or defect that is not related to your handling and/or processing.

Good wishes and hope to hear your new tests are successful.