Question about Zone

[macandal]

In chapter 10 of The Negative, Ansel Adams gives densities for some of the zones (II and VIII come to mind). I have a couple of questions:

1. Are the densities shown here for the negative or for the print?
2. Are the densities for all the zones (0 to X) posted somewhere I can see them?

Thanks.

[Old-N-Feeble]

Negative Zone densities may vary depending on the contrast of paper you use and your printing techniques. This is especially true of highlight densities. I used the ZS as a guide rather than an absolute way of working. One reason for this is I liked my shadows to have more density to lift details off the toe so, according to the ZS, I overexposed. But then I underdeveloped to avoid pushing the highlights into the shoulder. In fact, I underdeveloped a lot so I could adjust contrast and highlight density with selenium toner. It may seem like an odd process but it worked well for me.

[Regular Rod]

In chapter 10 of The Negative, Ansel Adams gives densities for some of the zones (II and VIII come to mind). I have a couple of questions:

1. Are the densities shown here for the negative or for the print?
2. Are the densities for all the zones (0 to X) posted somewhere I can see them?

Thanks.

The Zones are based on the final print values.

You should really do the work and find out the values as far as you feel they should be but this is a very good guide to get you started.



RR

[bob carnie]

In Lab values Zone 10 would be any thing above L-96 value and Zone 0 would be anything below L- 4 value
This is the main reason I never use RGB number but I use LAB and this chart is a very good guide.

The Zones are based on the final print values.

You should really do the work and find out the values as far as you feel they should be but this is a very good guide to get you started.



RR

[macandal]

In Lab values Zone 10 would be any thing above L-96 value and Zone 0 would be anything below L- 4 value
This is the main reason I never use RGB number but I use LAB and this chart is a very good guide.

Bob, what are these "L" values you mention? Is there a way to transfer RGB numbers into "L" numbers?

[macandal]

The Zones are based on the final print values.

RR

Rod, I understand what you're saying, but my question was about the densities he gives in the book (CH 10).

[Stephen Benskin]

In chapter 10 of The Negative, Ansel Adams gives densities for some of the zones (II and VIII come to mind). I have a couple of questions:

1. Are the densities shown here for the negative or for the print?
2. Are the densities for all the zones (0 to X) posted somewhere I can see them?

Thanks.

They are negative densities. The range has to do with matching the negative density range (NDR) to the print log exposure range (LER). Without knowing the paper's LER, you can't determine the film's aim NDR. Adams' numbers should be considered only as an example. It's always best to test for your specific conditions.

[Bill Burk]

In chapter 10 of The Negative, Ansel Adams gives densities for some of the zones (II and VIII come to mind). I have a couple of questions:

1. Are the densities shown here for the negative or for the print?
2. Are the densities for all the zones (0 to X) posted somewhere I can see them?

Thanks.

Hi macandal

1. They are for the negative.
2. Since you have "The Negative" Look at Figure 4-27 for an example graph with all the Zones and then look at Figure 4-28 for an illustration of the "problem" that makes it difficult to give a straight answer. The curves of different films vary. Ansel Adams gave some density ranges in Chapter 10 for Zones I, IV and VIII for Normal development for both Diffusion and Condenser enlargers. Since they are in his book, I guess you could say they are "Standards." But I think they were not meant to be standards. I think he gave numbers in the spirit of helpfulness - instead of giving the snarky answer "you are supposed to figure that out yourself." Ansel Adams gave you some numbers you can use to check your work.

[macandal]

They are negative densities.

1. They are for the negative.

So, if this is true, why is he bringing the "enlarger" part of this process if we're not there yet? We're still trying to get the negative right before we move on to printing. Or is he saying, "if you're going to print using a condenser enlarger, then your zones in your negative must read X for this zone, Y for this zone, and Z for this zone." If is the latter, then this just goes to prove that Ansel was not a writer AT ALL and that his books are in serious need of a major editing job by a professional.

Thanks guys.

(Still having problems determining my EI and N times, in case you're wondering.)

[Stephen Benskin]

So, if this is true, why is he bringing the "enlarger" part of this process if we're not there yet? We're still trying to get the negative right before we move on to printing. Or is he saying, "if you're going to print using a condenser enlarger, then your zones in your negative must read X for this zone, Y for this zone, and Z for this zone." If is the latter, then this just goes to prove that Ansel was not a writer AT ALL and that his books are in serious need of a major editing job by a professional.

Thanks guys.

(Still having problems determining my EI and N times, in case you're wondering.)

Do not just rely on The Negative to explain sensitometry and tone reproduction. There are a number of books that are more focused on that topic. The Zone System uses a simplified form of tone reproduction. Contrary to popular belief, Adams wasn't that interested or knowledgeable on the subject.

Please see the example in my previous post. The printing conditions and the subject luminance range determine the aim NDR. I've written a paper I've written titled "What is Normal?" It may be a little advanced especially concerning flare. I will be happy to answer any questions you might have. It's too large to upload here, but you can find it in the Differences in Grades of Paper thread in the B&W Film, Chemistry folder over at APUG.