8x20 Questions

[neil poulsen]

So yesterday, I purchased an 8x20 outfit . . . Oh my gosh.

I saw it listed on the web and went to the store to take a look without any particular intention of purchasing another camera outfit. But it included a fully equipped Toyo G 8x10 and a cleverly designed adapter to hold a Wisner 8x20 conversion kit on the Toyo, and considering the very reasonable price, I bought it. Four, beautifully made 8x20 walnut holders were included in the sale, loaded with film. The Toyo also came with extra rails and two mounting blocks to hold the 8x20 outfit, etc.

I've read the archives on this site and at Apug, and I have a few remaining questions about 8x20.

>> On average, what's the cost and availability of film? Purchasing 10 or so sheets at a time would be nice. But, perhaps I need to purchase in larger quantities to reduce the cost per sheet?

>> I can enlarge 8x10. I don't do much contact printing, so I'm wondering how much improvement I would see in an 8x20 contact print versus an enlarged silver print from a 4x10 section of an 8x10 negative. It's only a 2x enlargement, so I'm wondering if the difference would be that significant?

>> I have a tripod, a large Linhof with a 2" column and geared crank, that can hold this camera. Thinking that my 3039 Monfratto, hexagonal plate head rated to 26lbs may not be up to the task, what head should I consider? I was thinking of mounting both of the Toyo blocks onto a single piece of metal or wood and attaching this assembled double block to the tripod head. My tripod plate is about 4.5" in diameter.

>> The Toyo is a pretty solid camera that's capable of holding its own with the 8x20. But, would it make sense to purchase a Wisner 8x10 for the 8x20 conversion kit? Specs for the Wisner traditional L indicate that the weight of the whole outfit would drop by about 9lbs. So, it would be a lighter kit.

>> I tend to stick to similar dip and dunk development methods (out and back in each minute) with formats that I use. Are there holders for 8x20? I could make a tank, if need be. Or, am I stuck with tray development?

>> I've heard there's a problem keeping the film flat within the holder for 11x14, 14x17, etc. Is this the case with 8x20? One can get away without double-faced tape in 8x10; can one just load and expose with 8x20? It's longer of course, but no wider.

>> Is there a market for contact printed 8x20 photos? Of course, a lot depends on the particular image, but generally speaking, is there a market?

>> I would need a frame for contact printing the negative, which can be a little expensive. Is there a way to jury-rig something, in the meantime?

Thanks in advance. I never really expected to get into ULF, but here I stand with this recently acquired outfit.

[DrTang]

when I had a 8x20

I made a developing 'tank' out of pvc pipe section.. I believe I glued a tank lid from a 35mm tank onto an end piece - that seems about like something I'd do

mine...get this - came with like 25 boxes of tri-x

so I could mess around until I got the proper development thing down

I sold the whole outfit years and years ago..

I don't recall any mishaps, scratches or that beige patch where the film overlaps itself

maybe I got lucky

[Oren Grad]

On average, what's the cost and availability of film? Purchasing 10 or so sheets at a time would be nice. But, perhaps I need to purchase in larger quantities to reduce the cost per sheet?

Ilford FP4 Plus and HP5 Plus are available in quantities as small as one box as part of Harman's annual special order period (orders taken late spring, film delivered fall). From this or any other supplier, don't expect volume discounts - just be thankful the film is available at all.

I can enlarge 8x10. I don't do much contact printing, so I'm wondering how much improvement I would see in an 8x20 contact print versus an enlarged silver print from a 4x10 section of an 8x10 negative. It's only a 2x enlargement, so I'm wondering if the difference would be that significant?

They look different. The differences can be subtle; only you can decide whether they matter for your purposes.

The Toyo is a pretty solid camera that's capable of holding its own with the 8x20. But, would it make sense to purchase a Wisner 8x10 for the 8x20 conversion kit? Specs for the Wisner traditional L indicate that the weight of the whole outfit would drop by about 9lbs. So, it would be a lighter kit.

How important is (relative) compactness and (somewhat easier) portability to you? I wouldn't mess with a big monorail in the field myself, but YMMV.

I tend to stick to similar dip and dunk development methods (out and back in each minute) with formats that I use. Are there holders for 8x20? I could make a tank, if need be. Or, am I stuck with tray development?

I use Jobo 3062 and 3063 drums for ULF sheets. (Caveat: OK for standard developers, not for pyro.)

I've heard there's a problem keeping the film flat within the holder for 11x14, 14x17, etc. Is this the case with 8x20? One can get away without double-faced tape in 8x10; can one just load and expose with 8x20? It's longer of course, but no wider.

Depends on your holders, not just the format. But in general, if you don't have a problem with 8x10, I'd expect you'll be fine with 8x20. I don't use tape with any format up to my maximum of 11x14.

Is there a market for contact printed 8x20 photos? Of course, a lot depends on the particular image, but generally speaking, is there a market?

Is there a market for non-contact printed 8x20 photos? I think the extra sales you'd get just because it's a contact print will be negligible. Use the camera and format if you enjoy it and find that it stimulates good work on your part.

I would need a frame for contact printing the negative, which can be a little expensive. Is there a way to jury-rig something, in the meantime?

I don't use printing frames, because every one I've ever tried gives me bad Newton's rings in the environmental conditions of my darkroom. Instead, I use a plain glass sandwich, with heavy, 3mm thick glass for the top of the sandwich.

Good luck, and enjoy!

[Jim Noel]

"I use Jobo 3062 and 3063 drums for ULF sheets. (Caveat: OK for standard developers, not for pyro."

My experience is exactly the opposite. I get lines with D-76, HC 110, D-23, etc, but not with Pyrocat HD.

[John Jarosz]

I've not had any problem with film flatness in 8x20. 'Course, having said that I'll be afraid to expose some in the future.

I've found that (for me) it's much more difficult to get everything formatted EXACTLY as you would like so the contact print can be as close to 8x20 as possible. It's easier to work around a mistake in image setup when you enlarge a 4x10 (so it's usually slightly more than a 2x enlargement). And since I'm enlarging onto a vacuum easel I can get an 8x20 print fairly easily.

I tray develop negatives one at a time. I keep the film on the bottom of the tray and slosh the developer over the stationary film. This seems to minimize edge/center differences in development of the neg. YMMV.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Neil, nice going! For ULF I shoot three. 11x14, 14x17 and 8x20. I get the most compliments on my 8x20 work at every show I've been in. I contact print in carbon transfer and there is nothing like an 8x20 contact print. Scan it and go bigger, enlarge it? I don't know because all I do is contact print in carbon transfer.

Film can be hard to find. You have to stock the freezer. The Ilford run once a year is the way to go or be patient and find it on line. I shoot expired film and develop in a tray one at a time in Pyrocat HD with great results. Four holder is perfect because you will be very selective with your images.

I use double sided tape in my holders. Light tack/medium tack. I've had film buckle out in the field and it is not pretty when that happens.

I use a Gitzo M1570 head on carbon fiber legs and love it. No quick release please! Trouble with weight and torque.

I love the format. Have fun.

[Oren Grad]

"I use Jobo 3062 and 3063 drums for ULF sheets. (Caveat: OK for standard developers, not for pyro."

My experience is exactly the opposite. I get lines with D-76, HC 110, D-23, etc, but not with Pyrocat HD.

Ouch! Darkroom voodoo strikes again! If only we could figure out what factor(s) account for these different experiences...

[Michael Kadillak]

I can really relate to your feeling of having jumped into the water and all of a sudden you are expecting to execute with this new photographic tool.

Make absolutely no mistake about it. ULF is a labor of love and those of us that have been down the aisle with 8x20 have gained a level of experience that we have (unfortunately) paid for to get to the level of results that are what this process is all about. The most efficient manner of conveying these learned experience is personal conversation. At your beckoned call.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I can really relate to your feeling of having jumped into the water and all of a sudden you are expecting to execute with this new photographic tool.

Make absolutely no mistake about it. ULF is a labor of love and those of us that have been down the aisle with 8x20 have gained a level of experience that we have (unfortunately) paid for to get to the level of results that are what this process is all about. The most efficient manner of conveying these learned experience is personal conversation. At your beckoned call.

But it is so much fun!! Just takes one print!

[Michael Kadillak]

But it is so much fun!! Just takes one print!

This is true. But light leaks from the holders, shaky subject matter caused by wind during long exposures, vignetting at the most inopportune times as well as film developing shortcomings all conspire to point out your shortcomings to becoming a legitimate Master Photographer. ULF is graduate school along your LF photographer journey IMHO. The excessive cost of film dictates learning the mistakes of prior participants so you do not have to pay the same price of admission all by yourself.