Carbon inks, which ones to use?

[bubblecatcher]

Hi, i have just acquired a second epson 4800 that i wish to dedicate to black and white printing, but am unsure of which ink set to go with

Paul Roark EB6
or
piezography K7

both look very good when used with QTR.

I currently use epson ABW with Canson platine fibre rag, but understand that canson rag photogaphique is very good.

Does anyone know where i can example prints of both ink sets?

I understand that with the K7 i can create glossy BW print using the gloss over print. The EB6 is matte only, but can print on glossy paper?

If anyone has used both some pros and cons would be appriciated.

thanks

[Lenny Eiger]

I have a preference for Cone. I've used both... It's very simple, interchangeable, etc.

Lenny

[Ken Lee]

There are several areas of concern.

One is the issue of accommodating non-OEM ink cartridges to different printers and circumventing the chips found in OEM cartridges. Every printer is different and your solution provider will have to get you over that hurdle. With the Eboni solution you'll be working with the provider of your cartridges. I've have excellent support from Ross Hardie at InkjetCarts.us, and there have been several stages at which phone support has been required. With Piezography that is handled for you.

Another issue is profiling various papers, working with a tool like Quadtone RIP etc. With the Eboni solution, you're on your own from the start, unless you choose one of the papers that has already been profiled for your printer. There were none for mine and I got help from forum members here as well as on the QTR forum. I had to purchase a spectrophotometer.

The issue of determining which inks actually look best to you on which papers, can only come after you've jumped over the previous 2 hurdles.

A final issue is cost: once you get past the other issues, which provider is cheapest ? Is your time valuable ? Do you want to spend your time making profiles and fiddling with chips and cartridges, or would you rather pay for the convenience of a turnkey solution ?

Working with the Eboni 6 solution, you'll be dependent on technical support from colleagues found on forums. You may also be dependent at times on the provider of your cartridges to help you through the process of turning your printer into something it was designed to prevent. There's no one person or business to whom you can refer in a pinch. If you're not blessed with patience, you may find it all rather exasperating. If you are a natural troubleshooter, you might find it enjoyable and challenging.

I went with the Eboni approach, and like the results. It was certainly a longer and harder approach, but it has been rewarding. Had I been in a hurry, I would have chosen the Pieozography solution and would have likely lost less sleep and done less cussing.

You might find this brief article interesting.

One thing I can tell you, is that whichever you choose, no longer having to buy expensive ink in little cartridges which end up in a landfill - is a reward in itself. Lack of image fading is another.

[Ken Lee]

I should add that Epson inks with Canson Platine is a nice combination. The issues I found with that approach were as follows:

1) Epson inks will fade at different rates. Over time your monochrome images will exhibit non-linear color-shift. This has been documented at Aardenburg imaging. I presume it's due to their being composed of both dyes and pigments, but it's probably more complicated than that.

2) Epson inks exhibit metamerism: the slightly warm-toned images I have made look perfect under daylight, but can sometimes take on a magenta cast under incandescent light.

3) Epson inks are not inexpensive.

[Peter De Smidt]

I've used both and have a preference for Eboni on Epson Hot Press Natural. It's a just slightly warm pure carbon ink print on cotton paper. As far as I know, going cooler would require adding dyes, as the HP 'pigments' do. That said, I wouldn't use Eboni on PK papers. It would have to be sprayed or something so that the pigment would stick to the paper. This would be fussy, the image would be very much on top of the paper, and laminating sprays have lots of downsides.

[Lenny Eiger]

There are always lots of caveats with the MIS solutions. I won't say its impossible to get it to work, but if I was starting, I'd want the one that was easy, where the research had been done, where it was all balanced, it had a variety of colors from warm to cool, which could be mixed together, split-toned even, and that had a series of profiles all ready to go.

I've mixed my own inks up from scratch, using solutions from both Cone and MIS, different color mixes and clear base fluid. I used a magnetic stirrer, and drawdown bars to get things balance - a total pain. I had to extrapolate the actual densities from to what a printer would do from the drawdown... I did all that it was because Cone only had 4 tones back in the day. I am very happy to be back with stock Cone ink sets, now that there are 7 tones.

There's nothing wrong with going down a path to see what can happen, but if you want excellent results in less time, do yourself a few favors, and get what works...

Just my opinion.

Lenny

[Peter De Smidt]

Lenny, have you used Eboni-6? When did you last try MIS products?

Note that of the Piezography inks, only the Carbon K7/K6 inks (formerly Sepia K7/K6) pure carbon inks. They tend to be warmer than Eboni, which is good or bad depending on what you want. No variable tone (on the same paper, anyway) ink set will be pure carbon pigment. With carbon ink sets you control tone by paper choice. There's also a bit of leeway with ink dilutions. Some print warmer than others. Arches water color paper and Epson Hot Press Natural print the most neutral of all non-brightened papers that I'm aware of.

I agree with Ken's comments, with the proviso that Cone's system is only plug-and-play if you use ink/paper combos that he's profiled. If you use a non-profiled paper, you'll have to pay to have it profiled. With Eboni, if you use Paul Roarks's recommendation (printer, dilutions, paper) then it too is plug-and-play. It's only if you change things up that you'll have to do the whole QTR enchilada. It's not very intuitive, but it's not rocket science either. It takes experimentation. It took me a day to fine-tune my custom Eboni setup.

All I buy from MIS is Eboni black ink and their clear base. I make the dilutions myself. I have a magnetic stirrer, but there's no need for one with Eboni dilutions.

If you don't mind some tinkering, you want maximum longevity, you want as neutral of pure carbon prints that you can get, and you want to save some money, then Eboni is a great choice. If you don't want those things, then one of the Piezography ink sets would be a better choice.

Note that MIS has pure carbon ink (not Eboni) for PK papers, but these print very warm.

[Lenny Eiger]

Lenny, have you used Eboni-6? When did you last try MIS products?

It's been a while. I got burned badly when they converted the Eboni from a prior version. My base fluid turned it into a globular jello and I couldn't get any base fluid from them. I was out of commission for a bit. That's when I changed back to Cone, from making my own mix with MIS. I had to reprofile everything, prints that were re-ordered had to be redone, etc., etc. Now they sell base fluid and its better.

Over the years I read about Paul's earlier strategy for printing and I thought it overly cumbersome. Of course, your method, one ink, is as simple as it gets, that's great. With a little work I am sure anyone could get it to work. As photographers, we all know how to use a graduate, or a scale, etc. However, it does lock you in to one color scheme. If you like it, great...

Cone has a variety of colors, special edition inks, etc., and everything is balanced. You can swap out a color in channel 3 for another, or you can mix 3/4 warm neutral and a bit of selenium to get just exactly what you want. I have done so much research on all of this, I'm actually kind of tired of it. I'd just like to make some prints now, and easy is the order of the day, provided it works with excellent quality, of course.

I tend to trust Jon Cone a bit more with his quality control. It's probably because I know him personally and I know his commitment to getting this right. He's been at the forefront of b&w inks since the beginning, had to fight for it every step of the way (yes, with Epson) and I want to support his efforts. Without these efforts, no one would be able to put alternate inks in a printer today.

I think Epson is an ignorant company. Instead of trying to put Cone out of business, they should have worked together with him, and put out a "Jon Cone edition" black and white printer with Cone's inks. Sort of like the "Eddie Bauer" Jeep that was so popular in the 90's. A Jon Cone printer would have sold a tremendous amount. They were too self absorbed to see it.

Hoep that explains some of this...

Lenny

[SergeiR]

I had really good results with EB6 and Red River, while it worked. Then cartridges gone funny and i never seem to get it right since

[sanking]

.......
Cone has a variety of colors, special edition inks, etc., and everything is balanced. You can swap out a color in channel 3 for another, or you can mix 3/4 warm neutral and a bit of selenium to get just exactly what you want. I have done so much research on all of this, I'm actually kind of tired of it. I'd just like to make some prints now, and easy is the order of the day, provided it works with excellent quality, of course.

I tend to trust Jon Cone a bit more with his quality control. It's probably because I know him personally and I know his commitment to getting this right. He's been at the forefront of b&w inks since the beginning, had to fight for it every step of the way (yes, with Epson) and I want to support his efforts. Without these efforts, no one would be able to put alternate inks in a printer today.

........
Lenny

I use the Cone K7 inks, now with mostly pure carbon ink shades. One thing that should be mentioned is that you can begin with the Cone inks and the pre-loaded profiles and then develop your own profiles with the regular QTR tools. One of the features of the K7 system that I don't like is the fact that the Cone profiles are not user modifiable, at least not easily. With my own profiles made with Harrington's regular QTR tools it is possible to quickly create a profile for another paper. So there is some sense in the path that Ken and Peter have taken in learning to fish rather than just eating the fish.

Sandy