Where do you meter for snow?

[John Kasaian]

I know of two elderly gents, both skiers who due to health problems have had to quit sking. One of these guys is suffering from a terminal disease, so he especially won't be strapping on his boards this year. He was a long time character at the local ski area well known and loved by all(one legend has it that he streaked the Day Lodge to celebrate his 70th birthday!) I was trying to think of something to cheer him up so I thought I'd take some LF shots of his favorite runs using my point and shoot 8x10(Gowland Aerial) camera and make prints for both these guys. My question is about how to best filter snow. I'll be using a #8 yellow as it seems to help get some of the texture of the snow, but if I take my reading off the snow I'll get rather murky looking white stuff, so I've been metering off the sky. OK, but still not the best solution. So, like ....uhhh where do you meter for expansive snow scenes to get good results? Oh yeah---its B&W!
Another issue I've got is that at the base of this particular ski area there is a small alpine lake. I'm trying to picture in my minds eye how this lake should appear in my print. I wonder if it will appear gray(if it reflects the sky) or more like a big blob of ink? OTOH if it is cloudy there could be some very interesting effects if the clouds are reflected in the lake.
Any ideas, suggestions or thoughts on the matter? Because of the nature of one of these fellow's illness time is kind of running out, so I doubt if I'll have too much time to experiment---any "short cuts" would be greatly appreciated.

[John Kasaian]

Sorry I'm not thinking right! This is really a question about metering and filters. What works best? Conditions are changable---it could be bright sun or overcast As someone once said, weather in the mountains are about as predictable as a baby's bottom.

[Jeffrey Sipress]

I think the general rule is to meter the snow and over expose that by about 1.5 stops.

[Bernard Languillier]

Hi there,

Being new to LF and shooting mostly slide film, my adivce might be the most relevant, but I'll give it a try nonetheless.

As you probably know, the measure provide by your light meter if applied as such to the camera focussed at infinity and without filter used, would result in the area you metered being rendered as 18% grey (a slightly dark grey actually).

If that area was not supposed to be rendered as such, you end up with an underexposed image (in the case of snow). To avoid this, you have several options:

- use a Kodak 18% grey card and average 2 spots meterings on the card oriented first 45 degrees to the left, and then 45 degrees to the right. It is important to make sure that the this test is done in light conditions similar to those present in most of the scene,
- measure the light somewhere in the scene that is close to 18% grey (shadows in the snow could be a good candidate).
- measure any place in the scene, and decide how much thta area should be lighter or darker than average grey, knowing that + 3 or 3.5 stops shoudl give nearly full white, while - 3 or 3.5 stops should give nearly full black.

Finally, if you fear that the exposure range in the scene exceeds 6 or 7 stops, you might have to bias the result above to decide if you want to keep details in the highlights or in the shadows. My personnal feeling is that it is better not to overexpose snow too much so as to keep enough texture information.

If you use filters, or focus to a point closer to infinity, you will have to correct the exposure computed above to compensate for the resulting loss of lights. I am sorry, but I am unable to provide you with a good filter recommendation for B&W snow shooting. Considering that snow tends to reflect the blue of the sky (especially in the shadows), I would think that a yellow filter would indeed produce darker shadows, with probably little effect on the areas directly hit by the sun (besides an overall darkening if the exposure is not adjusted). This should indeed improve the texture of the snow also.

Finally, regarding your lake, I guess that a pola filter would help you control the amount of sky reflection you will get.

Sorry not to be able to help more,

Best regards,
Bernard

[Tom Perkins]

John,
There is a good section in Ansel Adams' the negative on snow scenes. The light yellow does provide some texture. One full stop compensation for a light yellow filter at 5,000 feet or more. Try metering the snow in direct light and in shadow, put the shadows in zone 4 or 5, and adjust the development time on the highlights to bring them down to zone 7 or 8. If the scene doesn't have much shadow in it, then you can underexpose and increase development time, which also helps the texture in the clouds. Your readings on the bright parts of the clouds and the snow should be about the same. The lake will come out kind of dark. If you don't have time to experiment, bracket. If that doesn't work, then just shoot your 400 film f/11 at 1/250 or its equivalent with a light yellow filter and the H___ with all the worrying. Good luck. Tom Perkins

[Erik Sherman]

You could also take an incident meter reading and, if you are concerned whether you'll like the blance of tones, bracket above and below. Sure, it's overkill, but then you only have to set up once.

[Francesco]

John,

I have spent most of last winter experimenting with Don Miller's rule of thumb for capturing snow texture and it has now become mine as well.

Bright, sunny conditions (sunlight on snow): use a Yellow (2x) filter and expose for 2 stops more than the metered reading adjusted for the filter factor.

Cloudy conditions (no sunlight on snow): NO Yellow filter and expose for 2 stops more than the metered reading.

One example http://cicoli.com/WinterScenesGallery/pages/Neg1Feb9,2004gentle_jpg.htm

Good luck!

Francesco (www.cicoli.com)

[ramin]

Francesco: What emulsion do you use that yellow filter on, could you mention this please?

cheers

[Robert A. Zeichner]

It sounds as if you really need a "painless" way of doing this and fast. I would recommend the following:

Try using the "Sunny 16" rule to establish your exposure. f16 at the reciprocal of your film speed and calculate from there (in bright sun of course). So, if using T-Max100 say, and you intend to shoot at 1/100 sec., set the aperture to f16. That gets you a base from which to work. Just re-calculate for different apertures or shutter speeds. If you rate the film at 64, use 1/60 at f16.

A yellow filter will do just fine, but for even a little more texture on the snow, I would recommend a Wratten G (equiv. to a #15 dark yellow). With T-max 100, you can use a filter factor of 1 stop for this filter. Because it is deeper in color, it will block even more of the UV rich skylight that illuminates the shadow areas of the grains of snow resulting in a more obvious texture.

The business with the pond is a bit trickier. A Polarizer might help if the orientation of the sun is correct. Otherwise it will act more like a neutral density filter than a polarizer. The Wratten G will do well to make any reflections of clouds pop, so that might be all you need. It will also darken the water if the water is reflecting blue sky.

I've done similar kinds of shooting with my Graflex RB Super D and have gotten wonderful results and had a good deal of fun shooting to boot.

Good luck

[Gem Singer]

Hi John,

I second Robert's suggestion of a #15 yellow filter. It was my favorite filter for B&W film while photographing snow scenes in the Oregon Cascades. It will also help with the reflection of the clouds in the lake. Meter through the filter, if possible. Then you won't need to worry about the filter factor.

I usually spot meter the darkest shadow area in the scene and then close down two stops. Bracketing 1/2 stop in either direction for insurance.