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Thread: Origins of 4x5?

  1. #21
    8x10, 5x7, 4x5, et al Leigh's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of 4x5?

    I do believe the popularity of 4x5 in the US is a direct result of the US military standardizing on that size for photography during the Second World War.

    As with most military procurements of that era, there were huge surplus stocks available after the war ended, very cheap.

    - Leigh
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  2. #22

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    Re: Origins of 4x5?

    Before WW2, the 3.25x4.25 Speed Graphics were more popular than 4x5.
    Wilhelm (Sarasota)

  3. #23
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    Re: Origins of 4x5?

    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    i heard / read something similar.. it was 16x20 and 8x10 and 4x5 because of glass sizes and then it was quartered ....
    very much like whole plate half plate quarter plate
    Yep, I do the same when making 5x4 plates for the Sands & Hunter plate camera. I buy 8x10's for the 8x10 camera and cut them into quarters for the 5x4, as needed.

  4. #24

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    Re: Origins of 4x5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    I do believe the popularity of 4x5 in the US is a direct result of the US military standardizing on that size for photography during the Second World War.

    As with most military procurements of that era, there were huge surplus stocks available after the war ended, very cheap.

    - Leigh
    This is very intriguing. If the 3x4 press cameras were more popular, why on earth would the military choose the 4x5 version? 4x5 film must have been more expensive than 3x4 since it's usually priced by surface area. It makes sense that 3x4 would be more popular because the standard stock lens was specifically designed for 3x4. It's a total surprise for me to learn that it was military demand that pushed 4x5 press cameras into ubiquity. Very odd.

  5. #25
    8x10, 5x7, 4x5, et al Leigh's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of 4x5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teodor Oprean View Post
    If the 3x4 press cameras were more popular, why on earth would the military choose the 4x5 version?
    We don't know whether that was the case or not. The assertion was made by one individual.

    I have worked with both the military field camera kits and the equipment that was used to maintain them, and it was all set up for the 4x5 format. I don't know why. I was not consulted when the decision was made. ;-)

    - Leigh
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  6. #26

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    Re: Origins of .. old European metric plate formats

    Hello from old Europe !

    Off-topic since not related to plate formats in inches,
    but the archives of our French MF+LF forum tell us what follows about metric glass plate sizes at the end of the XIXst century.

    Metric Plate Size Dimensions as of Photographic Congresses of 1889 & 1891, compiled by André G. for http://www.galerie-photo.info
    All dimensions listed below are in centimeters; one centimeter =~ 0.4 inch

    Series 2/3 (extinct)
    32x48
    24x36 [centimeters, not millimeters!]
    16x24
    12x18
    8x12

    Series 3/4 (this is the only series very partially surviving today for cut film, with formats 9x12 cm and 18x24 cm)
    36x48
    24x32
    18x24
    12x16
    9x12

    Series Square (extinct)
    48x48
    36x36
    24x24
    12x12
    8x8

    --

    Hence I would not be surprised if 4x5" plate size was actually defined by one of those congresses as Imperial standard plate sizes at the end of the XIX-st century.

    Another historical fact evoked in the above mentioned discussion on the French forum, and perfectly relevant since we are celebrating the 70-st anniversary of D-Day, and directly related to the US military cut film size choice during WW-II, is that 4x5" was unknown on the European continent (but certainly not in Britain? not sure, since there is full-plate, half-plate and quarter-plate), professional photographers used 9x12 cm, 13x18 cm [not listed above] and 18x24 cm.

    Hence, like chewing-gum and a certain dark, sweet and sparkling non-alcoholic beverage, 4x5" was brought to the European continent at the same time and for the same reasons!

    Some old passionate amateurs in France continued to use 9x12 cm glass plates up to the fifties.
    French and German professionals continued to use 9X12, 13x18 and 18x24 cm cut film up to the 1970's-1980's.
    But as of 1949, Paul-Émile Victor who served during WW-II as a pilot and Arctic expert of the USAF, had 4x5" cameras in the equipment for his first civilian and scientific Greenland expedition on the Inlandsis.

    My guess is that the now called 'international back' was adopted just after WW-II with 9x12cm cut film holders identical in their "oustide' dimensions to American 4x5" cut-film holders (and 13x18 cm similar to 5x7" and 18x14 cm holders similar to 8x10" holders in external sizes)

  7. #27
    multiplex
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    Re: Origins of 4x5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_1856 View Post
    Before WW2, the 3.25x4.25 Speed Graphics were more popular than 4x5.
    makes perfect sense to me .. magic lantern / quarter plate size ...

  8. #28

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    Re: Origins of 4x5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_1856 View Post
    Before WW2, the 3.25x4.25 Speed Graphics were more popular than 4x5.
    Why do you believe this? I ask because I took a quick look in the non-book and found ~ 16,000 3x4 Speed Graphic serial numbers assigned before 12/41 and ~ 32,000 4x5 Speed Graphic serial numbers assigned before 12/41.

  9. #29
    Jac@stafford.net's Avatar
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    Re: Origins of 4x5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teodor Oprean View Post
    This is very intriguing. If the 3x4 press cameras were more popular, why on earth would the military choose the 4x5 version? 4x5 film must have been more expensive than 3x4 since it's usually priced by surface area. It makes sense that 3x4 would be more popular because the standard stock lens was specifically designed for 3x4. It's a total surprise for me to learn that it was military demand that pushed 4x5 press cameras into ubiquity. Very odd.
    The military operated as a Demand Economy in WWII, expensive be damned. Larger than 4" roll film was typical for aerial recon photography. On the civilian side, look to the spacing of column rules (no longer used) for typical sized images made via contact prints.
    .

  10. #30

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    Re: Origins of 4x5?

    All of this is now getting interesting! Maybe 4x5 existed in the 19th century as just another format, but when sizes started to become more standardized around 1900 and the use of film it became a winner. If 4x5 was the most popular size for those shooting a Graflex and Speed Graphic, that would be a lot of film. It would also have some cachet among amatuers as the size professionals used. No doubt 4x5 is partly an accident of history, and partly its inherent convenience as a size. Not too small that you lose detail in contact prints, not so big you can't handhold the camera. One of the truths in camera evolution seems to be that portability and convenience trumps ultimate image quality. The 4x5 is easy to carry & use, and image quality is good enough.

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