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Thread: Commissionned new lenses, foolish ?

  1. #21

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    Commissionned new lenses, foolish ?

    Michael,

    Just read the Shneider thread on APUG, and it's interesting to note that it's not the same people who spoke in both threads, and yet the conclusion to both is about the same : let's take matter into our own hands...

    The suggestions so far revolve around wide angle lenses, and i agree that's a piece of the market that is not covered by modern lenses, but i was also thinking about "normal" lenses and long lenses for ULFers, lenses with 50 degree coverage, that can be made simply, and are less "high tech" than the process lenses that are used today and that frankly are overkill for contact printing....

    Hand grinding optical elements might be going a little too far into taking matters in our own hands, but getting optical assemblies with only the elements made and machining the pieces needed to mount to shutters might be a simpler alternative... with symetrical designs you even get the advantage of needing half as much different elements to design and make...

    PJ

  2. #22
    tim atherton's Avatar
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    Commissionned new lenses, foolish ?

    Micahel - for the Kowa idea, aren't Kowa (and Computar) still out there making lenses?
    You'd be amazed how small the demand is for pictures of trees... - Fred Astaire to Audrey Hepburn

    www.photo-muse.blogspot.com blog

  3. #23

    Commissionned new lenses, foolish ?

    "you are on the right track in my opinon, but I wouldn't do a direct copy of the Computar lenses. I believe they ultimately were designed optimized at 1:1
    (symmetrical), which causes field curvature at infinity that requires small apertures to help compensate. "

    I always had the understanding the 1:1/curvature thing was more of a myth than an actual problem? (or at most a theoretical problem, not a real world one)

  4. #24

    Commissionned new lenses, foolish ?

    I think most of you'all are underestimating the difficulty of commissioning a lens. The optical design -- which glasses to use and the shapes, etc., -- isn't the hardest part. There's also designing the mechanical mount, making the glass elements and making the parts for the mount. Making one or a few would be _very_ expensive because it would be mostly skilled hand labor. That's why Bob Salomen said "They are not looking for 1 up orders" .

    Making 50 or 100 would allow the use of CNC machining, which makes the idea more realistic than it would have been decades ago. But still, 50 or 100 units at an expected cost of at least a few thousands dollars each represents alot of capital. While the ULF community is larger than a few hundred, how many will want to buy the lens? Some will be content with the lens or lenses that they have, while others won't be able to afford the price. Assuming that Cooke and Schneider are pleased with the results of their forays into niche LF optics, perhaps they could be persuaded to make the investment. If the plan is to have a group of people make deposits, your going to have to find 50 or more people willing to put up a few thousand dollars, perhaps to a stranger. I guess that you'll be lucky to see the money from one out of ten people who express an interest. Maybe find an established retailer to take the deposits, or setup an escrow account?

    As Conrad said, another issue is what shutter to use. If you only make a barrel lens, your market will really shrink. The largest suitable shutter today is the Copal 3. This will either eliminate some otherwise attactive designs, or severely restrict their maximum aperture.

    As others have said, there is the competition with the used market, including machining older lenses to fit into shutters.

    I think your best bet is to identify one particular lens, by focal length and desired coverage, that is exceedingly hard to find on the used market and which would be very useful to users of one or more popular ultra-large formats. Then you could see how many photographers agree on your choice and strongly want this lens, then you could try interesting Cooke or Schneider, or perhaps Linos or a Japenese manufacturer.

  5. #25

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    Commissionned new lenses, foolish ?

    One of the nice things about the G-clarons is you can unscrew them and put the lens into a shutter. All without a great deal of skill. How about making a couple of barrel lenses that the end user could mount into a shutter?

    It lowers the intial purchase price. It saves the cost of paying somebody else to mount the cells into a shutter.

    I understand F/stop markings would be an issue.

  6. #26

    Commissionned new lenses, foolish ?

    Gary,

    You may think that it is a non-issue, and it probably is for most LF shooters, but any shooter that has used some of these lenses for purposes which they were not designed (wide angle use on banquet cameras, etc) can tell you that field curvature is a very real issue that may be able to be addressed as part of a redesign.

    Some people think that we need the small apertures to correct for lens aberrations off axis, and that is true, but only partially. It is possible with some of these lenses to focus it at the center on infinity, and the edges of the IC will be out of focus. You can also focus on the edges, and the center will be out of focus. It's not the case that the edges will never be in focus without stopping down, but that the curvature is so extreme that when the center is in focus, the edges are actualy focused beyond infinity, which is an example of field curvature.

    Tim,

    Computar as the LF community knows it does not exist. I understand the brand was sold to another optics company that now makes CCD optics for security equipment. However, I suspect that the model that was used for the Computar/Kyvytar brands may be an appropriate approach for this problem, as I believe they were designed in the US, and then manufactured in Japan under contract by an optics company.

    I'm not an optics person, so this is well out of my realm of experience, but I think that making a lens like the Computar line would be a fairly easy and straightforward thing (in the scheme of things, that is), since there are few elements, and the designs will be quite simple.

    However, I also recommend people consider other older lens designs, like the old angulons, and the Boyer and Wollensak WA lenses, and also the old (and slow) protars. These things have to fit in a #3 shutter, and size is important, so the long lenses will end up being fairly slow to meet both of these requirements.

    Ultimately, when it comes to normal lenses, there are a lot of Artars out there, so I don't see that being much of a market (except for getting it in a modern shutter). It's the wide angle lenses where there is little to choose from, and almost none in a modern shutter with modern coatings.

    ---Michael

  7. #27

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    Commissionned new lenses, foolish ?

    My 2 cents. I'd love to see a series of f7.7 coated Dagor's beginning at 16 1/2". 420mm, 485mm, and 600mm. Those 3 would cover almost anything somebody wanted to accomplish in ULF. We don't need 14" as G-Claron's are plentiful and do a fantastic job. A Schneider 305XL would be nice. Probably cover 24X30. Is Kern still in business in Switzerland. They made the last Dagor's.

  8. #28

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    Commissionned new lenses, foolish ?

    Ah yes, an affordable f7.7 Dagor! That would be a prize!

    BTW, how did Ron Wisner make out with his casket set he had Schneider build? I wonder if he realized a profit, or at least broke even on the venture?

    Also, what about approaching manufacturers in the former eastern block? They make excellent optics when motivated and the exchange rate might be more attractive than what the big four(or five or six) could offer on a limited run. Just a thought.

    Cheers!
    "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority"---EB White

  9. #29
    Brian Bullen
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    Commissionned new lenses, foolish ?

    Patrick

    Although I would appreciate new lenses of either modern or classic design that would cover ULF, I think in the long run cost would be prohibitive. Creating and producing lenses of varied focal lengths for such a limited number of people would lead to a high cost per unit in the end. I can't speculate as to what that cost would be but looking at the current price of Schneiders XXL series I think most ULF photographers are pretty happy with the performance/cost ratio of older lenses. That being said if you can find a way to make a new, reliable and inexpesive lens that will cover big film I'll be first in line.

  10. #30

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    Commissionned new lenses, foolish ?

    Jan - the same thought has crossed my mind, more oriented toward small, light optics for 8x10 (such as the Fuji A f10/360mm). I will be watching the development of this dream with interest, and possibly $. And while not strictly a ULF wish-list item, I would second Micheal's suggestion for a 180mm lens with adequate coverage for 8x10 (with some movements).

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