Returned goods for the For Sale section, some guidelines?

[Kirk Gittings]

What good are unenforceable guidelines? IMHO either it is at your own risk or not. If in any shape or form the mods have to get involved then it is not "at your own risk". If you post guidelines then people are going to think that if the guidelines are not followed then they have some recourse from the moderators. One of the reasons I grew sour on moderating was because I had received a couple of calls at my home in the evening from disgruntled buyers or sellers who simply did not get that it was at their risk and that I was not a recourse.

IMHO this is a very problematic direction to go in. The reason I participate in the FS section is to be able to deal with people I know on some level. I have never had to return anything and have had only one thing ever returned to me that was damaged in shipping. Do your homework on sellers and expect them to do the same on you. But don't participate unless you are prepared to take a loss. Otherwise go pay the fees at the Bay.

[Vaughn]

In my case it would have been nice to point to the guidelines and say, "Yes, it is customary for the seller to wait until receiving the return before sending the refund. But it might have not made a difference since the buyer went out of his way to be nasty.

[Lachlan 717]

Isn't this whole thread based on trying to manage the exception, rather than the rule?

If there was a systemic issue with how the For Sale section works, wouldn't there be hundreds of posts supporting the notion of changes to the rules?

Seems to me that the near silence on this alleged issue is deafening...

[BrianShaw]

I heard that!

[HMG]

Paypal gets it's cut either way, if you pay as a Gift you are paying the charges, there's no defrauding Paypal. You are however giving up any rights to involve Paypal if an item has issues or doesn't arrive.

Ian

Not correct. If you pay as a "gift" from a paypal balance or from a linked bank account, neither you nor recipient pay fees if both parties within US. However, if you pay via credit card or cross border, there is a fee. I don't know if there are fees within a non-US country.

As to the broader question of who should pay return shipping on a item sold, in my opinion much depends on whether the discrepancy is clear cut or a matter of opinion. For example, was a shutter not working (and not disclosed) or simply a bit slow. Is there a bit more dust than you expect or is there fungus.

I assume if I do enough buying, sooner or later I'll have to pay for return shipping on an item that I think was "optimistically" described. It's the price we pay for having an international marketplace. In the case of liars, or even honest negligence or ineptitude on the part of a seller, its a different story.

[Jody_S]

I would like to see the end of the 'Paypal - Gift' practice here. Yes, it's an attempt to defraud Paypal from their legitimate (and reasonable) fees. I personally will not buy from anyone who insists on having a payment sent as a gift, because I'm afraid of precisely what happened to Ginette. The fact that she got dinged for 2x currency exchange when dealing with a fellow Canadian member is a little galling also, and I'm wondering if it was a strategy to discourage her from returning a known-to-be-defective item, as the cost would end up being prohibitive. The seller also insisted she use a premium, express postal option for the return, which more than doubled the cost of return postage, which again makes me wonder what the motives were. There was no advantage re. insurance or traceability.

I say this as a longtime eBay seller (~1997-8). If someone finds a fault with an item that I did not document & disclose, I pay for their return shipping as well as refunding their original purchase + shipping. Not everyone takes me up on it, but it's made me a lot more aggressive with documenting faults with my items. Does this cost me sales? I don't know. I get a lot of comments that my items are better than described, but this doesn't translate into return buyers.

A lot of people use the classifieds here because they like dealing with fellow photographers who should know when a lens has scratched or when a shutter is buggered. I understand there is more of a risk buying off eBay when you're dealing with pickers and wholesalers who won't take 5 minutes to test an item, or even figure out what it's supposed to look like. I wouldn't like to see the worst practices of eBay sellers migrate into the Classifieds section here. No one here can plead ignorance about what a lens is supposed to look like.

[Wayne]

I dont see PP gift payment as an attempt to defraud Paypal of their reasonable fees. I see it as an attempt by cheapskate sellers to trick the unwary buyer who doesn't realize they lose their right to have PP go after the seller if they buy junk and pay by "gift". Of course it is both things, but the one time I had someone ask me to "gift" the money I refused, and when the product arrived it was junk. Nice try on his part. (not on this forum by the way, it was a guitar)

[Lachlan 717]

Interesting (well, not really, but run with it) that there is much more discussion on PayPal than on new guidelines...

[Dan Fromm]

Interesting (well, not really, but run with it) that there is much more discussion on PayPal than on new guidelines...

Interesting point, Lachlan. But then, there are no new guidelines and there probably won't be.

There's been no discussion of the, um, elephant in the room. Ginette bought a lens, believes she was had, and badly. Not good, not good at all. But unless I've missed something she hasn't named the seller or commented on its bad behavior in the Buyer-Seller Advisories.

Ginette, you really should name names so the rest of us will know who to avoid.

[Wayne]

Interesting (well, not really, but run with it) that there is much more discussion on PayPal than on new guidelines...

Its important because if you are dealing with a seller who wants you to gift them their payment you know right away you are dealing with a cheapskate who also doesn't want you to have Paypal's purchase protections.