Which Graflex would be a good beginner's 4x5 to start out with. There are many on E-bay. What would be a good price to pay?
Which Graflex would be a good beginner's 4x5 to start out with. There are many on E-bay. What would be a good price to pay?
If you do a quick search, you'll find numerous versions of this ever-popular thread. But my vote is for the basic, late model 1960s Crown Graphic with the top rangefinder, along with a Kodak Ektar lens. A clean model will run from $150 to $400 on eBay, depending upon your luck and patience. The graflex.org website has tons of info, and the cameras are very sturdy and inexpensive - it's worth to wait for a clean one rather than settling for a beater.
The next post will tell you that there are only limited movements on a Crown, and that you should get this or that. Frankly, if you want to learn how to use movements, none of the box Graflexes are ideal - for that you should look for a $100-$200 Calumet Monorail and a 210mm lens ($200) of the same era.
If you have more money, a $650 Chinese Shen Hao is a great value for a camera that folds up and still offers plenty of movements, as are used examples of Wistas, Linhofs, etc.
Are you familiar with www.graflex.org? There is much information there about the various models.
I assume you are asking about the various "Graphic" models rather than the big single lens reflex "Graflex" cameras.
I hesitate to recommend the Pacemaker models because they have extremely limited movements. There are many who happily use them, however. Some like the Speed Graphics so that they can use barrel-mounted lenses, but it can be hard to find one with a really good shutter.
The Super Graphic has considerably more movement capability. There are some unorthodox means of getting more adjustment than you might expect. For example, if you need more shift than provided, you can turn the camera on its side and use what is normally front rise. Some people have added extra tripod mounting sockets to facilitate this.
The lenses usually found on all Graphics are easy to use because of their large aperture, but have small image circles, so lack movement capabilities. If you can save money by buying a body only, this is worthwhile.
Regarding price, your best indication is by searching eBay's completed items.
Remember that these are all at least thirty years old, so condition is very important, particularly that of the bellows.
Frank, you're a fine prophet.
I think the first question to answer is do you want the very limited movements of a Graflex or do you need the capabilities of a field or monorail view camera? For me, borrowing a friend's Graflex for a few weeks only whetted my appetite for full-fledged view camera.
Second question; if you go with a Graflex, do you need the focal plane shutter or not? If the focal plane shutter is necessary, then the Speed is the choice. If not, go with the Crown.
The Graflex is a genre of its own. The fact that they have lasted so long is a testament to their ruggedness and continued ability to do a job. On top of that, I think they are just flat fun. I hope to pick up a good Crown within the year. Then I will go to the local High School baseball games and plant myself next to the local Newsie with his Digi.
The Graflexes have been talked up so much that they are now priced well above their worth on the auction site. Don't get me wrong -- they have their appeal, much the same way that the Lomo or Seagull TLR remain enjoyable cameras to use whether or not you have a Nikon F5 or a Mamiya RZ.
I suggest that you rent or borrow a 4x5, and if the bug hits you, save your dash for something a bit more reliable and versatile. My vote is for the Shen-Hao 4x5 with the back movements -- an excellent camera that is compact, relatively light, and reasonably priced. It takes standard back accessories and the popular Technika-sized lensboards. Both of these factors will be important down the road if/when you decide to purchase a more expensive camera.
Also -- brand suggestions aside, if you truly are a beginner, I suggest starting with a field camera rather than a traditional monorail. The field camera is easier to take out with you, which really counts in the beginning -- the best camera is the one that you have with you!
"...something a bit more reliable..."
Come back in 50 years with your Shen-Hao and say that!
Show us a camera more reliable than a Crown or Speed!
"beginner's 4x5"
For what? Everybody tries to answer the question but unless you spend a little time explaining what the camera will be used for nobody can give a good one.
Do you want to be a press photographer with the hat?
Do you want to take landscape photos using little movements but with the big negative?
Do you want to take portraits?
Do you intend to take macros?
Do you want to photograph buildings?
Ya the press cameras are limited. But maybe that's not a problem. OTOH maybe the limits are right in the area you want to use it for.
"...something a bit more reliable..."
Come back in 50 years with your Shen-Hao and say that!
I took my Shen-Hao around for more than four years in a small Jansport daypack, wrapped in a dark cloth if anything at all. Never coddled it. I can't even remember if it was locked down or not when I threw it in there. Took a licking and kept on ticking. It really is a nicely built wooden field camera. I can see replacing the plastic washers (which would take $5 an about and hour of your time), but there's really nothing about the camera that wouldn't make me believe that it would last 50 years or longer.
Show us a camera more reliable than a Crown or Speed!
Show me a "beginner" Crown or Speed user / LF convert that hasn't gotten the bug for a more capable camera within a year of actually shooting with it!
" I took my Shen-Hao around for more than four years..."
only 46 more years to go! ;-)
" Show me a "beginner" Crown or Speed user / LF convert that hasn't gotten the bug for a more capable camera within a year of actually shooting with it!"
There are thousands! Myself included. Many of them at graflex.org. Sure, I also use a Century Universal (made by Graflex by the way!) for 8x10, but my Speeds, Crowns and GVII will not be replaced any time soon!
I am not a "pro" and never will be... And I have also found that movements for a non-pro fall into three categories. "Not needed", "experiment with this" or "I can bend my camera into a pretzel"...
Seriously, movements have been very overrated. Front tilt is essential, only because of the longer focal lengths to be able to get decent depth of field. Sure, that could also relate to swing for horizontals, but I've never missed swing. For product or architectural shooting, movements are necessary. But for everyday photography, not so much.
I'm not saying that movements aren't nice. And I'm not saying they're not needed at any time. I'm relating them to non-pro more casual shooting. Most people get along their whole lifetimes with 35mm or MF with no movements, and don't miss them. Those people should not be excluded from the joys of large format. You can get all the pleasure you want out of a large format camera and never use a single movement. I have done that when in the mood. Single lens, walk around and just have fun, especially with Polaroids.
Sometimes the technical points gets so over blown that the simple joys of photography get lost in these discussions... It makes sense to explain the benefits of movements, but most of them are not necessary for an average shooter who may never use them.
And after all that, even I will admit that movements are fun to play with, and do help more when moving to 8x10 (but again, because of focal lengths)...
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