Kharma Chameleon in B&W? Is Fortepan 400 Ilford HP-5+?

[John Kasaian]

While cruising the Black and White forum over at the APUG site I came across Whats Over The Horizon for B&W http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8767 If true, what does it mean? I haven't given the new & improved J and C Classic a try yet, so I can compare it to HP-5+ but maybe someone here can shed some light on the matter.

Cheers(in a confused sort of way)

[Gem Singer]

John,

After reading the thread to which you are referring, I don't see how you concluded that Fortepan 400 is the same as Ilford HP-5+. Was your headline merely a method for attracting attention to your posting?

[Francesco]

Hi John,

My experience in using HP5+, "New" Classic 400 and Fortepan 400 is that they are three different films. "Old" Classic 400 behaved similarly to Fortepan 400. My preference out of the three is "New" Classic 400 (in Pyrocat HD rated 400).

Francesco (www.cicoli.com)

[John Kasaian]

Eugene,

No. The way I understood the thread was that Forte was buying Ilford HP-5+ and marketing it as 'new" Fortepan 400. What has me confused is that the post asserting this is from "JandC" which makes me wonder if this is the same J and C that sells the Classic 400 film. It is interesting (to me) that if Ilford were in need of money, they would be willling to sell in bulk inventory to another manufacturer who has the resources to purchase, and if the poster of this is J and C, and as marketers for J and C Classic 400, they'd be in position to know. There is also mentioned that Forte is no longer making "old" 400 sheet film since presumeably Hp-5+ is a more desireable product. Would that mean that say, Arista .edu 400 is the same product as Arista Pro 400, only cheaper priced? Or is it all advertising puff?

My intent is not to spread rumor but seek the input of someone here with recent experience with these emulsions in order to see if there is any merit. I'd try it out myself except I'm too busy with other projects that I prefer to shoot with 125 ASA film. Additionally I'm curious as to how this factors in to the theories about Ilford's chances of survival advanced here by those who know far more about the workings of commerce than I.

Since Tuan's site probably has the largest number of LF users on board, I figured this would be the place to get answers since the APUG thread, has already seemed to "run it's course" and a reader could well take it that Fortepan 400 is HP-5+. I find that hard to believe, OTOH it kind of makes sense in view of Ilford's difficulties.

Any opinions from anyone whose actually used this stuff?

Cheers(and even more confused!)

[John Kasaian]

Francesco,

Thanks! What is the difference between the new Fortepan 400 and HP-5+? You mentioned that you use Pyrocat HD, does the Fortepan "stain" differently?

[David A. Goldfarb]

I've used New J&C Classic 400 and New ClassicPan 400 from fotoimpex.de, and I used the old ClassicPan 400, and the new Classic 400 is definitely better than the old kind, and neither of them resembles HP5+. New Classic 400 is a long-toe film with a good density range, more akin to TXT. Even if I don't believe my own eyes with regard to tonality, it is not on the same base as Ilford sheet film, and it isn't as scratch resistant as Ilford or Kodak sheet film.

Arista has repackaged HP5+, but they say the .EDU films are sourced from Hungary, which would mean Forte. Whether that means FortePan 400 or HP5+ from Forte, one would have to ask them or test the film.

My impression from a different discussion is that some Forte branded 400 films may be HP5+, but that Classic 400 and ClassicPan 400 are not HP5+--

http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8726

[Gem Singer]

I checked that thread twice, John, and I still don't see any reference to what you are talking about.The thread is headed "What's over the horizon for B&W", but I can't find any mention of JandC purchasing Ilford HP-5+ and marketing it as the new Fortepan 400. Do I need to be a member of APUG in order to see the "secret" stuff?

[John Kasaian]

Eugene(&everyone else)

My apologies! I got the wrong handle---try http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8726 My attention span deficiency finally caught up with my computer illiteracy index.

Thanks for the input, David!

Now I'm 97.95% less confused!

[Francesco]

John,

All 3 films exhibit the same brown stain typical of Pyrocat HD negs (in varying degrees of course). New Fortepan 400 is in my experience NOT HP5+. If choosing between the two, Fortepan 400 gets my vote.

Francesco (www.cicoli.com)

[Jay DeFehr]

John from J&C photo wrote:

"Forte is no longer producing the old emulsion 400 film. All current orders are being filled from the new production 400. I don't know if the edu film is from the new or old stock. I do know that Forte is selling HP5 under their brand in 400 speed roll film. I have been told the edu 400 roll film is HP5 and not the new Forte 400. We have specified that we only want the Forte 400 films in both roll and sheet and that is what we are getting from them."

I am reasonably confident that Arista's Edu. films are Forte Pan, and Arista's Professional films are Ilford. What is not clear to me is wether Arista's Edu. 400 film is "new" Forte Pan 400 or "old" Forte Pan 400. Considering the descriptions of the working properties of "old" Forte Pan 400, I'd say that the Edu. 400 is the "new" stuff. The Edu. 400 and Profesional 400 from Arista are both excellent films, in my experience, but my personal preferrence is for the Professional (HP5+) 400.