Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 78

Thread: Pushing and Pulling effect on tone curve?

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    304

    Pushing and Pulling effect on tone curve?

    Jock Sturges work was one of my big reasons for switch to large format last year. There is a tone and texture that I feel just cant be done in digital. After shooting for a year I feel like i'm getting close but the soft shadows and tone still elude me. I found a post and he said the following.

    What lets me get away with meterlessness in b&w is the simple fact that I overexpose between two and three stops and then underdevelop pretty radically. So now matter how much I have overexposed highlights they never have time to develop unprintable density. Annnnd, that gives me lovely shadow detail. Old trick really and I'd be surprised if most of you don't already know all about this.
    In my head it sounds like he just pushes the film but my experience is that pushing increases contrast. So re-reading it I wondered if I mis-understood. But even if you overexpose, why would under developing leave you with the same shadow detail, in my head they should be under exposed as well.

    So am i understanding this correctly. I know he does not use a meter but lets assume he shoots ISO 100 film at 400, am i understanding that he is basing his development time on ISO 800 or higher?

    Learning on digital originally, the switch to film has been learn as I go and I feel like im missing something basic here. Thoughts?
    Ryan Mills

  2. #2
    Drew Wiley
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    SF Bay area, CA
    Posts
    18,337

    Re: Pushing and Pulling effect on tone curve?

    That's called shooting from the hip.... which is often synonymous with shooting yourself in the foot... or in the case of large format film, unnecessarily shooting holes in your wallet. Some films will let you be sloppier than others, but achieving rich tonality has exactly zero to do with guessing exposures. Buy a light meter.

  3. #3

    Re: Pushing and Pulling effect on tone curve?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanmills View Post
    Jock Sturges work was one of my big reasons for switch to large format last year. There is a tone and texture that I feel just cant be done in digital. After shooting for a year I feel like i'm getting close but the soft shadows and tone still elude me. I found a post and he said the following.



    In my head it sounds like he just pushes the film but my experience is that pushing increases contrast. So re-reading it I wondered if I mis-understood. But even if you overexpose, why would under developing leave you with the same shadow detail, in my head they should be under exposed as well.

    So am i understanding this correctly. I know he does not use a meter but lets assume he shoots ISO 100 film at 400, am i understanding that he is basing his development time on ISO 800 or higher?

    Learning on digital originally, the switch to film has been learn as I go and I feel like im missing something basic here. Thoughts?
    wrong direction of X
    he makes dense, flat negatives …. linda connor (sfai teacher since 69) worked with POP, which was very forgiving of exposure. search sturges alma matter

    LC (and many others) use the newspaper method: can you read a newspaper through the negative? In her case (ca '71) the answer was definitely no.
    try the method.
    can you read through the negative?
    Yes --- punch the exposure (increase)
    can you make a contact print on low contrast grade?
    Yes --- good to go
    No --- change development time

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    304

    Re: Pushing and Pulling effect on tone curve?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    That's called shooting from the hip.... which is often synonymous with shooting yourself in the foot... or in the case of large format film, unnecessarily shooting holes in your wallet. Some films will let you be sloppier than others, but achieving rich tonality has exactly zero to do with guessing exposures. Buy a light meter.
    I will be sure to tell the master photographer that next time I see him, i'm sure after 30+ years of shooting he had no idea.
    Ryan Mills

  5. #5
    bob carnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario,
    Posts
    4,939

    Re: Pushing and Pulling effect on tone curve?

    I have seen a lot of Jock Sturges prints and I think his prints are world class, to me his description makes perfect sense.
    He is looking for beautiful shadow detail , with a hint of black, and long on highlight detail. This gives a very soft looking print.

    I have clients who have asked for this type of print, and to mimic his print style I advise the photographer to overexpose heavily and under process to suit highlight detail.

    This is often done with Trix and PMK , which team up very well.

    I am a huge fan of his printing skills.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    304

    Re: Pushing and Pulling effect on tone curve?

    Quote Originally Posted by marfa boomboom tx View Post
    wrong direction of X
    he makes dense, flat negatives …. linda connor (sfai teacher since 69) worked with POP, which was very forgiving of exposure. search sturges alma matter

    LC (and many others) use the newspaper method: can you read a newspaper through the negative? In her case (ca '71) the answer was definitely no.
    try the method.
    can you read through the negative?
    Yes --- punch the exposure (increase)
    can you make a contact print on low contrast grade?
    Yes --- good to go
    No --- change development time
    That's very interesting, So when you say X are you saying if he shoots ISO 100 film at 400, he is developing for 100 or less? How would this differ from just overexposing X number of stops and developing normally? Or is that exactly what he is doing? What part is limiting the highlights? I always meter my shadows and push things up so I tend to overexpose but I don't understand how you limit the highlight density.

    I recently got the New Work 96-2000 book and could see signs they negs were thick in the highlights and that's why I started wondering. I tried this early on and found that they just cant be scanned that thick and after I found a really ideal scanning density but its not the same. I'm working with an enlarger now and im going to have to tinker more.

    What I have never quite gotten right was shooting in the sun like he does sometimes, i can get it near perfect in the shade where I have lower contrast. But keeping both highlights and shadows close enough to print without massive burning and dodging eludes me in the sun. Pointers other than use a meter are welcome.
    Ryan Mills

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    304

    Re: Pushing and Pulling effect on tone curve?

    Quote Originally Posted by bob carnie View Post
    I have seen a lot of Jock Sturges prints and I think his prints are world class, to me his description makes perfect sense.
    He is looking for beautiful shadow detail , with a hint of black, and long on highlight detail. This gives a very soft looking print.

    I have clients who have asked for this type of print, and to mimic his print style I advise the photographer to overexpose heavily and under process to suit highlight detail.

    This is often done with Trix and PMK , which team up very well.

    I am a huge fan of his printing skills.
    Your comment "hint of black" was exactly what I noticed, he never really prints for a true black most of the time. Its something I just felt like it had to be there when do my own and feel I need to look at that again. Im just missing how he keeps his highlights down during the development process. There is a shot of Misty Dawn on a dock standing backwards that is clearly overexposed a lot, so much I dont think I would have published it personally. So there is a range, just wish I knew it.

    I know for a fact up until the rolli project it was tri-x pro with hc-110. It was not the 320 pro but I still get really close using it and a slightly tweaked dilution (1:38 for 6:30 at 68 degrees). He shoots mostly digital right now but was shooting tmax for the rolli project and loved it. I got some tmax 100 and 400 to tinker with using the double dilution, wondering if that might help keep the contrast lighter without pushing the film so far.
    Ryan Mills

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    1,856

    Re: Pushing and Pulling effect on tone curve?

    Ryan, you aren't getting a clear answer yet. You have pushing and pulling confused.

    Pushing is shooting 400 film at 1600, which underexposes it, and developing more to make up for the underexposure (which is something a lot of people do that technically does not work, but this isn't the place to discuss that). Pulling is exposing 400 film at 100 and developing less so that the film does not get too dark. In the context being discussed, this has the specific effect of drawing the overexposed bright areas down into a more printable range without affecting the shadows.

    From what you are saying, Sturgis overexposes and underdevelops. This leads to flat (less contrasty) negatives, which makes sense in the context of what you are saying.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Massachusetts USA
    Posts
    8,476

    Re: Pushing and Pulling effect on tone curve?

    If we use a film that really is ISO 400 and expose it as if it were 100, then all things being equal we over-expose by 2 stops.

    If we then give the film N-2 development, we contract the high values that were just placed 2 stops too high, back down by 2 stops.

    That's likely what is meant by over exposing and under developing. The tone curve gets less steep. We have compressed the contrast range.

    Compared to the "soot and chalk" appearance of many b&w photos, a competently exposed, developed and printed negative will often look remarkable. It has less to do with format size, than with competent technique. The same principles apply whether we shoot small film or large film.

  10. #10
    bob carnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario,
    Posts
    4,939

    Re: Pushing and Pulling effect on tone curve?

    Plus one

    When he prints or has prints made they are on what I call the soft side and the black is there but not dominant.

    You need this long scale negative to get this look. Ken describes the process very well.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Lee View Post
    If we use a film that really is ISO 400 and expose it as if it were 100, then all things being equal we over-expose by 2 stops.

    If we then give the film N-2 development, we contract the high values that were just placed 2 stops too high, back down by 2 stops.

    That's likely what is meant by over exposing and under developing.

    Compared to the "soot and chalk" appearance of many b&w photos, a competently exposed, developed and printed negative will often look remarkable. It has less to do with format size, than with competent technique. The same principles apply whether we shoot small film or large film.

Similar Threads

  1. Pulling FP4+?
    By Scott -- in forum Darkroom: Film, Processing & Printing
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 22-Jul-2012, 06:39
  2. To tone or not to tone (digitally)
    By PMahoney in forum Digital Processing
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 19-Oct-2006, 17:50
  3. pulling HP5+
    By Dawid in forum Darkroom: Film, Processing & Printing
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 16-May-2006, 14:17
  4. Pulling HP5+
    By Wayne Crider in forum Darkroom: Film, Processing & Printing
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 1-Oct-2001, 17:08

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •