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Thread: Arca-Swiss or Shen-Hao

  1. #1

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    Arca-Swiss or Shen-Hao

    After being a medium format shooter for several years I have decided to make the move to a 4x5. I have read hundreds of posts here (I think every one that mentions beginners, Arca or Shen). I have read through Kerry Thalman’s site and Tom Westbrook’s Arca materials too. I have also read a few books (Kodak LF, Hicks+Schultz, and Dykinga). Finally, I have put in several hours under the dark cloth of a friends camera, making a few shots. Now I am finding that when it comes down to it, choices in LF are pretty tough to make-tougher than I thought. My casual observation had pointed toward a Shen Hao HZX45-II. After shooting with a friends Technica, looking at several different monorail models, and doing alot of reading (books and here), I have come to really like the Arca-Swiss Discovery too. That is where I am at now, trying to pick the better camera between these two. Maybe a better way to say it is a better camera for me to work with. I am aware of the size/bulk differences, but think they are not as much of a factor when one considers a full load of gear. I do some hiking, but find myself close enough to the truck during magic hour light that the carrying aspect does not bother me. The real issue is ease of use and control. I will be using the camera outdoors for landscape and the occasional building/cityscape (no studio use at all). I will be getting a Quickload holder and using Velvia as my only film. My lens choices will be a 75mm, 125, and a 210. I'll get the 125 first, but I am planning ahead (I have had a chance to use a 75, 90, 135, 150, 270, and 360- the 75, 125, and 210 meet my needs). I also plan on getting models that take 67mm filters for simplicity and fewer things to carry. If I was to go beyond these three basic lenses it might be a wider, but I do not need anything past about 240 on the long end for the images I like to take.

    I want a camera that can be used in the field, works well with wide angle lenses, and can take a Quickload holder. Both seem to meet these needs. I think the cameras are dissimilar enough and that might be what is throwing me. I know that they are both fine tools and both will take a picture. I am probably putting waaay too much thought into this. I have broken down my planned route into fixed costs and model specific costs. The lenses, Quickload holder, film, darkcloth, loupe and a new Gitzo CF tripod (1325) are the same either way. The camera is where there you see the difference. Beside the initial price (quoted from Badger) of $625 for the Shen Hao and $1425 for the Discovery, there are also the difference in accessories. After buying a fresnel or bright screen the Shen goes for around $800. If you want the bag bellows they are pretty cheap at $99. The Arca accessories I might want is the Lens board reducer and maybe the bag bellows, both are over $300.

    Some questions I have about the differences between a wood field camera and a monorail:

    Will you feel a noticable difference in the controls of the Shen compared to the Arca? On things like focus, and tilt, is it easier, smoother, more accurate with the one camera over the other? I think a concern I have is that the Shen will be very rough, choppy, or imprecise with the focus and tilt. I would expect the Arca to be smooth, accurate, and finely adjustable in a way the wooden field camera is not. Does that make sense? Is it accurate? I read some posts where Arca owners were saying they can make a tilt of 1-2 degrees and the camera will not slip back into the zero detente. I am curious if a wooden camera would behave like that? I have the impression/concern the Arca would be smooth with all movements while you might have to fight with the awkward, uneven or choppy movements of a wooden camera. Is that something you notice in wooden models or are they so close it does not really matter? Stability. Does a wooden camera flex and move when inserting a film holder? Is a wood camera rigid enough? Or do you trade it for compact lightness?

    Shen Hao questions: Does Shen have zero détentes for any movements? Does it have a problem keeping the front panel in a neutral position? Arca Questions: Lens board size. I drew out a 110 and a 171 sized square. The 171's are really big, but that might not be a factor with only 2 or 3 lenses. Wide angle usage. I would like to use a 75mm. Sure the bag bellows would work and would work with upto a 210, but it is also $390 more to spend. Maybe a recessed board would be all you need? I think I read one post where someone “just got” back to a 72.

    Rail length-is it hard to use the 30cm rail with a wide and all that extra rail sticking out the back? In other words to you poke yourself a lot? The size and packing factor are not a factor. A full kit is still going to be a load. I am however concerned about the ease of use. I know the Arca is a good camera. I am concerned that the Shen is too much of an economy camera and will come up short in real use. I guess I want to be sure I am spending my money in the right way. Does the extra $700-1200 the Arca ends up costing (with possible accessories) get me any more?

    Bottom line- setting up in the desert, what is going to be the better camera to work with?

    My thanks for whatever comments you can give.

  2. #2
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    Arca-Swiss or Shen-Hao

    Does the extra $700-$1200 for the Arca get me more camera? --- Answer: It certainly does!!

    Darren, you are comparing apples to oranges here. Of course, both are very capable 4x5 cameras that can be used in the field with the lenses that you mention. All of the technical comparisons you have made in your post are correct. The only points you didn't touch on were: "am I a metal, or a wooden camera guy"? And: "do I prefer a folding flat bed, or a monorail type camera"? Only you can answer those questions.

    The remaining decision you need to make is: " do I want to spend the additional money for the Arca Swiss"? You are the only one who can make that decision

    To give you a direct answer your question, I've owned the Shen Hao and handled an Arca Swiss, and if I were setting up in a desert environment, I would definitely choose the Arca. However, I'm a wooden folding flat bed field camera guy and neither of those cameras would be my first choice.

  3. #3

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    Arca-Swiss or Shen-Hao

    I didn't read your question thoroughly (I'm at work), but I think I have the jist.

    Using a mono-rail like the Discovery can be a bit of a pain, especially if you want to hike to your location. A field camera is much more desirable in this regard. In the studio however, a mono-rail's ease of movement and precision cannot be beat.

    If you're gonna shoot in dusty, sandy environments it might play havoc with those lovely high precision low tolerance mechanisms. A wooden field camera is less precise, relies more on friction grip rather than geared movements.

    The ideal camera I have found is the Linhof Technikardan 45S, which is a field camera with an extendable rail.

    As for cameras moving when inserting a sheet film holder, most cameras will move if you insert the holder in a ham-fisted way. There are easy techniques to follow to ensure this doesn't happen. One is that you remove the ground-glass piece from the camera, insert the holder and then put the GG back on.

    I did own a Wisner 45 and it was pretty rigid. You'd be surprised at how heavy a truly rigid camera is. It's a comprimise thing.

    Most field cameras don't have detents.

    Also, why buy new ? There is a huge choice of used LF cameras out there going for a fraction of the new price and they are in excellent shape ...

  4. #4

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    Arca-Swiss or Shen-Hao

    "I am probably putting waaay too much thought into this"



    I don't think so. I suggest you find a way to try both cameras. Your concerns are about fit and feel, and the only way to find out, is by fitting and feeling for yourself. Once you gague the difference, you can decide if the difference is worth the money.



    If you consider the total cost of your equipment, IE all the lenses, etc, then the dollar difference between the two cameras is much less.



    If you are interested in expanding the camera to accomodate longer lenses, then the Arca merely requires some additional rail, and possibly a longer bellows. Those purchases will exceed the cost of the Shen Hao, but you will still have a portable, modular setup.



    I have a Discovery and love it. I sold my Tachihara (similar to Shen Hao). Like you, I only "stroll" with the camera, a mile or two at most. I don't go on real hikes with it. I don't carry it in a pack - but in the case which came with the camera.(You might want to factor in that cost as well - it's a very nice case). Being a monoral, you can keep the lens on the camera in the case, and there is no unfolding or folding to do at setup time.

  5. #5

    Arca-Swiss or Shen-Hao

    I think the Arca Swiss Discovery is a pain in the ass to lug around outdoors, but once I get to the location, I am glad I brought it. Having owned a Toho, Tachihara, and Wista DXII (which I still have), this is definitely my favorite 4X5--even if I have to hike a mile or two. Personally, I love the precision and ease of operation. I was certainly glad that I had the Arca in April when I got to a sunset viewpoint overlooking Lake Powell and determined that the Fujinon 450 was the lens I needed to get the shot I wanted. The other cameras couldn't have handled this lens (except Toho with extender). You can often find a used Discovery for $900-1,000 (that is how I got mine).

    --John

  6. #6

    Arca-Swiss or Shen-Hao

    Darren,

    The two cameras you are considering offer great "bang for the buck", but they are two totally different beasts. Both will handle the range of lenses you are considering. What it really comes down to is ease of use, cost and personal preference. At $625 Shen-Hao is one of the best bargains out there in a folding wood field camera, and while the ARCA-SWISS Discovery is about $800 more, it still represents a great value for the money.

    I have shot with the Shen-Hao, and while it is capable of handling a fairly wide range of lenses, beware of a little creative specmanship. The min and max extensions advertised are not with the standards in the neutral positions. To achieve the advertised numbers requires a combination of base and axis tilts on one or both standards. This negatively impacts rigidity (at max extension) and ease of use with wide angles (for example, implementing front rise with standards non-parallel changes focus - so it becomes a multi-step, iterative process). I don't recall the shortest lens the Shen Hao can use with the standards in the neutral position (either 90 or 110, maybe a Shen-Hao owner can confirm). I'm pretty sure you will have to use combined front base and axis tilts to use a 75 (or 80) on a Shen-Hao with a flat board (and I believe with a recessed board as well - Shen-Hao owners?). The max. extension with the standards in the neutral position is about 11 3/4" (just a hair under 300mm).

    Also, the weight spec of the Shen-Hao is EXTREMELY optimistic. The one I had weighed 5 1/2 lbs. - more than and ARCA-SWISS Discovery.

    Arca Questions: Lens board size. I drew out a 110 and a 171 sized square. The 171's are really big, but that might not be a factor with only 2 or 3 lenses.

    Yes, the 171mm boards are huge for a field camera. I have a Canham-made ARCA to Linhof board adapter that stays on my camera most of the time. The one exception is when I want to go REAL wide. I have a 26mm recessed board in the 171mm size. A board this big eliminates many of the difficulties of working with a recessed board. I can use a standard cable release, I can easily see and get at all my lens controls, etc. ARCA also makes a 171mm to 110mm adapter, or if you want to spend more money, you can get the 6x9 front standard and tapered bellows. Like most things ARCA, you have three or four viable options and can select the one that works best for your needs and your budget. I've gradually picked up a few accessories for my F-Line and it can be easily configured to handle lenses from 38mm - 600mm non-telephoto. It doesn't sound like that's an issue for you, but it illustrates how flexible and complete the ARCA system is.

    When comparing accessories, there really is no comparison. The Shen-Hao bag bellows are made from a thick, stiff upholstery-like vinyl (think Naugahyde), are a bit difficult to install and must be removed to fold the camera. The ARCA-SWISS leather wide angle bellows are amazingly suptle, a snap (literally) to install and can be left on the camera during transport They also cost nearly 4x as much (there is a reason).

    I don't want this to sound like I'm bashing the Shen-Hao. I'm not, just pointing out some of it's limitations. No camera is perfect, but for one costing $625, the Shen-Hao is a tremendous bargain that I have often recommended for anyone with limited funds. You would be hard pressed to find a more feature rich camera for less than twice the cost.

    Like Eugene said, this really is an applesranges comparison. I have not used the ARCA-SWISS Discovery, but I currently shoot with it's close brother, the F-Line Classic. If I recall, the only differences are: different rail (fixed 30cm vs. 30cm optical bench telescopic), fewer levels, different colored knobs, knobs instead of spring loaded clamps for locking the front and rear shift movements and no fine focusing on the front standard. The Discovery comes with a case and cost over $1000 less. It takes all the same accessories as the other ARCA cameras and can be easily (but not inexpensively) updgraded and reconfigured to your heart's content (and wallet's discontent). For all practical intents and purposes, the Discovery is almost an F-Line for a lot less money. In terms of quality and design, IMHO the ARCA-SWISS Discovery represents one of the best values in new large format cameras. There are less expensive cameras, and there MAY be "better" cameras (it's debatable until the cows come home), but you won't find a better camera for less money than an ARCA-SWISS Discovery. If I didn't already have an F-Line, I'd seriously consider getting a Discovery myself.

    I believe, but am not 100% sure that you can upgrade your Discovery at the time of purchase to your desired configuration by paying the cost difference between the configurations. In other words, I believe you can order the Discovery with a different rail (say the 30cm optical bench telepscopic or the 30cm collapsible rail) by paying an additional charge. You may be able to do the same with the bellows. You will need to check with your dealer to verify this, but if it is possible you could order a Discovery with leather wide angle bellows in place of the standard bellows, if desired. If you don't plan to shoot with long lenses, this could save you considerable money over buying a stock Discovery with the standard 38cm bellows and later adding a bag bellows . Ditto if you want a different rail. Again, check with your dealer.

    Wide angle usage. I would like to use a 75mm. Sure the bag bellows would work and would work with upto a 210, but it is also $390 more to spend.

    The wide angle bellows would be the best option. Check to see if you can order your camera with the wide angle leather bellows in place of the standard 38cm bellows.

    Rail length-is it hard to use the 30cm rail with a wide and all that extra rail sticking out the back? In other words to you poke yourself a lot?

    I have not found this to be a problem. I'm not a huge ultrawide user, but I do use very short lenses on occasion (and an 80mm regularly). The ARCA standards sit high enough above the rail that a good portion of that 30cm can be in front of the lens without the rail showing up in the photo.

    Does the extra $700-1200 the Arca ends up costing (with possible accessories) get me any more?

    Definitely. It gets you a more flexible, more expandable system camera that is more rigid, smoother operating and IMHO easier to use. Is it worth the extra money? Only you can answer that one.

    Bottom line- setting up in the desert, what is going to be the better camera to work with?

    Again, only you can decide. Either camera would work for your application. It really comes down to personal preference. Do you prefer the aesthetic qualities of wood, or the high tech precision of CNC machined metal?

    Using a mono-rail like the Discovery can be a bit of a pain, especially if you want to hike to your location. A field camera is much more desirable in this regard. In the studio however, a mono-rail's ease of movement and precision cannot be beat.

    Exactly how is it a pain? At 5 lbs. the Discovery is lighter than many wooden field cameras, including the Shen-Hao. It will be faster to set up and use than a folding wooden camera. It may be a little more bulky, but not prohibitively so (especially with one of the optional collapsible or telescoping rails).

    If you're gonna shoot in dusty, sandy environments it might play havoc with those lovely high precision low tolerance mechanisms. A wooden field camera is less precise, relies more on friction grip rather than geared movements.

    The only geared movement on the Discovery is the rear fine focus - same as the Shen-Hao (and the Technikardan). Jack Dykinga (and many others) has been using ARCAs in the desert for many years. If there was a problem, he would have switched years ago. This is simply a non-issue.

    The ideal camera I have found is the Linhof Technikardan 45S, which is a field camera with an extendable rail.

    Until about 11 months ago, the TK45S was my primary camera. It is, indeed a wonderful camera. However, even used, it is more than the two cameras Darren asked about. It is also bulkier and heavier. As I mentioned above, these days I shoot with an ARCA-SWISS F-Line Classic. New, it currently costs about $750 ($2450 vs. $3295) less than a TK45S. Having used both cameras (I'd be happy with either), I prefer the ARCA. I find it faster to set-up and easier to operate (not by a lot, and that's just my opinion, not an undisputable fact). I guess I don't understand how the Technikardan can be considered ideal, but the Discovery a bit of a pain. The quality and operation of these two cameras are much more similar to each other than either is to the Shen-Hao.

    Personally, I think if Darren could afford it, the ARCA-SWISS F-Line Field would be a great camera for his needs (as described above). This model comes with the smaller 6x9 front standard (takes the 110mm boards), the 24cm tapered bellows and the 30cm collapsible rail. This makes it more compact and lighter than the other F-Line configutations. And although it costs twice as much as the Discovery ($2865) it would elminate the cost of purchasing a bag bellows and lensboard adapter. This camera would easily handle Darren's desired lenses of 75mm - 210m and could easily go wider if he ever desires (or longer with the 50cm bellows and extension rail).

    I didn't intend this to read as an advertisement for ARCA-SWISS. There are a lot of fine cameras out there that would meet Darren's needs. The ARCA is just one option he asked about and what I am currently shooting. It's a well designed, well built expandable system. Although the cost of the accessories are on the high side (but comprable to other brands of equal quality - Linhof, Sinar, etrc.), the cameras are actually priced quite competively. I can't think of a better built camera than the Discovery for less than $1500. In fact, the quality exceeds some brands costing hunderes, if not thousands, more. The Shen-Hao is in a totally different class, but still one heck of a lot of camera for the money. I was pleasantly surprised with the quality of the sample I tested. Is it in the same league as an ARCA or Linhof. Certainly not. I wouldn't even put it in the same league as a Wista. However, it costs less than 1/2 as much. I can answer your specific questions about features and operation of the two cameras, but it all really comes down to your personal preferrences and how much you want to spend.

    Kerry

  7. #7

    Arca-Swiss or Shen-Hao

    Its a bit strange to compare one of the cheapest field cameras with one of the most expensive monorails. Even if the Discovery looks cheap at first sight, be aware that you will find almost no used accessoires and need to buy everything new. Any used Linhof, Sinar, Calumet, Toyo would be far cheaper looking at the total costs of ownership.

    If you are on a budget I would recommend a Linhof Kardan M (cheap, excellent build quality, weights 'only' about 6 pounds, accessories easily available, a bit bulky though).

    Otherwise I would follow Kerrys recommendation and go for an Arca F-Line or Technikardan.

  8. #8

    Arca-Swiss or Shen-Hao

    Once the Arca is set up in your tripod its the simplest, fastest, easiest, bestest camera you could want. I really, really liked mine. If you're not too worried about carrying your new purchase around buy the Discovery. A used Discovery with a bag bellows is the way to go. Don't buy the 120 or 125mm lens - buy a 110 Schneider, super sharp and miles of coverage. The Arca with a bag bellows and a 110 is an incredibly capable and useful camera and lens combination. Later add a 180 (the bag bellows will work just fine with a 180, a 210 is a bit long and carrying the extra standard bellows is a pain) and then buy a 75mm. (or better IMO the 80 Schneider) 80, 110, 180 is a great combo, all can take 67mm filters.

  9. #9

    Arca-Swiss or Shen-Hao

    Kerry and others have pretty much said it all already.

    I wanted to chime in and say that like Ken and John, I am a happy Discovery user. I hike with mine, and while it is not the best LF camera for hiking (I really need to get a lensboard adapter one of these days, these 171mm boards are not just bulky, they are heavy!), but I deal with it because it is a real pleasure to use. Kerry pointed out the differences between the Discovery and the "standard" F-line cameras, and what he listed is it. Quite an amazing bargain compared to the rest of the Arca line.

    A couple of things to keep in mind. First, you absolutely need the bag bellows if you want to use a 75mm and have any movements at all. I got the leather bellows and they are superb... of course they cost almost $400. That's the second thing to keep in mind -- Arca components are good, but are not cheap. You can get in the door with the Discovery, but any upgrades after that point (rail extension, bellows, etc.) cost you the same as any other rich Arca user. ;-)

  10. #10

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    Arca-Swiss or Shen-Hao

    If you can afford an Arca Discovery with accessories, get one. If you don't have a lot of money, get the Shen-Hao. Both are probably the best values in their respective categories.

    My Arca-Swiss is the best camera yet, and I've owned at least a dozen quality 4x5 cameras beforehand.

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