Using Horseman 980/985/VH-R to shoot 4x5: experiences and advice please.

[MonkeyBrain]

Hi, been struggling a little working with a Crown Graphic over the last year. I like the extra quality 4x5 gives me over 120 film, and wish to continue with LF, however the fact that lenses cannot be easily and quickly changed on location, and the almost total lack of available rangefinder cams on the market, means I've come to the point where I need to trade the Graflex in for something more appropriate to my needs. Although I can't currently afford it, a Linhof super tech V is top of my list. However I recently discovered the Horseman rangefinders and have seen mentioned a couple of times that, with the addition of an adapter, they can be used to shoot 4x5. However I can find very little info about this on the net, so basically I'm wondering if anyone on APUG has experiences of using a Horseman rangefinder to shoot 4x5 that they could share with me? I also have a few specific questions (see below).

(Yes, I know the Horseman rangefinders are primarily MF cameras, but I assume that, as I am asking about using them as LF cameras, I havent fallen foul of LF-Forum rules by posting this here...please accept my apologies if that is not the case though).


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Everyone wants different things from a camera, so first off I guess it makes sense to list my needs:

To work exclusively handheld, focusing only with rangefinder, never groundglass. I'm also unlikely to ever make much use of movements.

As I'm working hand-held, obviously weight is an issue up to a point, but at the same time I mostly use the camera for environmental portraits (i.e. I'm not a street photographer who spends days on end hauling the heavy camera around the city) and so I can put the thing down when I want to take a break without risk of missing a shot (though I'm not exactly physically well-built, and anyway I travel overseas a lot so it makes sense to keep weight down just to avoid baggage problems).

My priorities when working are speed in composing, focusing and shooting, and ease of movement within the environment (so I can follow 'action' and drastically change POV and composition accordingly).

So my reasons for considering a Horseman are: lightweight, small, ease of changing lens in the field, availability of rangefinder cams, large built-in viewfinder, cheap, well-made.

Not sure that it makes much difference to the discussion, but 80% of the time I work with studio flash (on location).

I have almost 20 years experience of working in this way, know exactly what I do and do not want from a camera, so while I can appreciate that suggestions such as 'you'd be better off just using roll film" or "LF was designed to be used on a tripod, with time and deliberation" may be totally well intentioned, they'd fall on deaf ears as I have absolutely no desire to change my working methods at this point in time.

As a side note, I've also considered the possibility of a Wista RF, with the addition of a Linhof grip. But I'm primarily concerned with info regarding the Horseman cameras here.

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Questions:

First off, what are the limitations of using a 4x5 adapter? For example, does the adapter compensate for any change to film-plane to lens distance, allowing normal use of the rangefinder? Or does the rangefinder become unusable when shooting 4x5?

From what I've read online, I'm assuming that rangefinder cams are not linked to a specific individual lens (such as is the case with older Linhofs), but rather just to that particular focal length (i.e. a 150mm cam will work with any Horseman 150mm)? If that is the case, will the cam also work for the same focal length lens produced by another manufacturer?

I also read somewhere that only 2 different focal lengths of lens can be used with the 4x5 adapter. Is this true? Which focal lengths? What happens if an inappropriate lens is used? Vignetting? I hardly ever use wide angle lenses, so it doesnt worry me if they are ruled out, however I'm increasingly enamored of longer focal lengths, so it would be disappointing if no lens over, say, 180mm can be used (this is one reason why Ive been put off going for a Wista RF, as they are only cammed for 3 specific lenses, none of which are long).

Am I right in saying that the 980/985/VHR use an international graflock back, and therefore (with the addition of the 4x5 adapter) will accept 4x5 Grafmatic film holders?

And what fujiroid holder can I use (presumably any holder that is compatible with an international back?)?

How is clarity/ease-of-use of rangefinder (compared with Speed/Crown Graphics, for example)?

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Sorry for incredibly long post. My thinking was that by providing maximum detail about my needs no one would waste their time replying with irrelevant info, but instead I've probably wasted more of all your time in asking you to read this epic…sorry

[Tin Can]

I hate to burst your bubble, but your Crown is the best option.

Horseman MF with 4x5 adapter could be made to use RF, but will be heavy and require sighting in the RF for that purpose.

Grafmatics are heavy, I don't have 4X5 Grafmatics, a 2X3 is 9 oz.

4X5 is not quite 2X the size of 2X3, not gaining a tremendous amount.

RF is the issue.

Weights, as weighed by me right now.

Horseman VHR without 4X5 adapter 4.12 lbs

Horseman HD 4X5 no RF 4.08

Century Graphic 2X3 3 finders 3.06

Speed Graphic 3X4 2 shutters 3 find 3.11

Speed Graphic 4X5 everything 6.05

Linhof Prewar 5X7 GG only 7.09

I don't know what baby Linhofs weigh,but i bet they are not lightweight.

I find my VHR too heavy. I prefer my Century Graphic with wood holders, sheet film is flat, unlike roll film.

3X4 is actually the best of all and Ilford is cutting film this summer to fit.

I suggest a Century, they are really nice.

[MonkeyBrain]

Thanks for the reply Randy Moe, I'd been looking for a list of comparable camera weights, but with little luck, so thats very helpful. However weight is only one consideration.

Plus, the Crown doesnt do what I need it to do (i.e. I cant change lenses half way through a shoot and still use the rangefinder to focus) so keeping it is not an option. End of story.

As a kind of solution, I was buying a second Crown to use with a different focal length lens, so i could switch between the two, when I realized just how much hassle it is to find graflex cams...and not just to find them but even to work out which is even the correct one for the lens.

Also that means traveling the world with two camera bodies instead of one. Which totally undermines any saving made on the weight front...

I currently use Grafmatics and would not be willing to part with them, as anything else is too slow for my purposes.

As I said, I was kind of hoping for info about using Horseman rangefinders, rather than arguments as to why I'd be better of using something else. This may well turn out to be the case, but I'd like to make that decision based on info about Horseman cameras themselves. Have you used yours with 4x5 at all? If not, why not? Purely because its too heavy? It sounds like you favor roll film anyway though, right?

Sorry, that last paragraph sounds a bit ungrateful. I dont mean to be, just hoping not to end up with a thread full of people urging me to use their favorite camera, but rather some info about one specific camera, about which I know very little.

Thanks again

[Tin Can]

Where did i say I prefer roll film?

'I find my VHR too heavy. I prefer my Century Graphic with wood holders, sheet film is flat, unlike roll film.'


I don't use a VHR for 4X5.

Thanks for the reply Randy Moe, I'd been looking for a list of comparable camera weights, but with little luck, so thats very helpful. However weight is only one consideration.

Plus, the Crown doesnt do what I need it to do (i.e. I cant change lenses half way through a shoot and still use the rangefinder to focus) so keeping it is not an option. End of story.

As a kind of solution, I was buying a second Crown to use with a different focal length lens, so i could switch between the two, when I realized just how much hassle it is to find graflex cams...and not just to find them but even to work out which is even the correct one for the lens.

Also that means traveling the world with two camera bodies instead of one. Which totally undermines any saving made on the weight front...

I currently use Grafmatics and would not be willing to part with them, as anything else is too slow for my purposes.

As I said, I was kind of hoping for info about using Horseman rangefinders, rather than arguments as to why I'd be better of using something else. This may well turn out to be the case, but I'd like to make that decision based on info about Horseman cameras themselves. Have you used yours with 4x5 at all? If not, why not? Purely because its too heavy? It sounds like you favor roll film anyway though, right?

Sorry, that last paragraph sounds a bit ungrateful. I dont mean to be, just hoping not to end up with a thread full of people urging me to use their favorite camera, but rather some info about one specific camera, about which I know very little.

Thanks again

[Dan Fromm]

MB, there have been extensive discussions on www.graflex.org about making cams for top RF Crowns. Have you been there and read them?

[Oren Grad]

For example, does the adapter compensate for any change to film-plane to lens distance, allowing normal use of the rangefinder?

No.

Or does the rangefinder become unusable when shooting 4x5?

Pretty much. You might be able to reset the infinity stops for the longest cammed lenses.

From what I've read online, I'm assuming that rangefinder cams are not linked to a specific individual lens (such as is the case with older Linhofs), but rather just to that particular focal length (i.e. a 150mm cam will work with any Horseman 150mm)?

I'm not sure whether there are differences between different generations of the Horseman/Topcor lenses.

If that is the case, will the cam also work for the same focal length lens produced by another manufacturer?

Not necessarily. Infinity stops can be reset to account for different flange-to-film registers, but actual FL also often varies in different ways from the marked FL. Any given lens might be close enough for you, or it might not.

I also read somewhere that only 2 different focal lengths of lens can be used with the 4x5 adapter. Is this true? Which focal lengths? What happens if an inappropriate lens is used? Vignetting?

Probably, though I don't know which FLs start to get you in trouble. There are two versions of the adapter - a fixed one and a focusing one. The focusing one may have been introduced to address vignetting - it has its own bellows and focusing rails, and makes the camera very awkward to use hand-held. Per Horseman spec, it also adds almost 2 lb to the weight of the camera.

I hardly ever use wide angle lenses, so it doesnt worry me if they are ruled out, however I'm increasingly enamored of longer focal lengths, so it would be disappointing if no lens over, say, 180mm can be used (this is one reason why Ive been put off going for a Wista RF, as they are only cammed for 3 specific lenses, none of which are long).

If you want to go long and still use a RF, a Technika is what you need.

Am I right in saying that the 980/985/VHR use an international graflock back, and therefore (with the addition of the 4x5 adapter) will accept 4x5 Grafmatic film holders?

And what fujiroid holder can I use (presumably any holder that is compatible with an international back?)?

IIRC the focusing adapter back is Graflok; I don't remember about the fixed one.

How is clarity/ease-of-use of rangefinder (compared with Speed/Crown Graphics, for example)?

In both cases it depends heavily on the condition of the particular sample. My VH-R is fine.

Anyway, the bottom line is that it's going to be somewhere between impractical and impossible to use a 6x9 Horseman as a 4x5 RF camera. Save up for that Technika. (EDIT: or per Dan's comment, look into what you can do with telephoto lenses on a Graphic.)

[MonkeyBrain]

MB, there have been extensive discussions on www.graflex.org about making cams for top RF Crowns. Have you been there and read them?

Hi Dan, yes, thanks, been lurking graflex forum for the last year or so and looked into making cams (or, at least, getting someone to make one for me). I'm about the least technical person in the world though, and havent a hope in hell of ever making anything so precise as a cam.

Actually it was Charles' instructions on graflex.org on how to go about measuring actual focal length of my lens that basically broke the camel's back as far as graflexes go haha. His description of the process was just too much for me.

I just want a working camera that does what I need to do as best as possible, without having to become a technician myself. I appreciate a lot of people get into LF and analog photography precisely because the technical side appeals to them, but I'm not one of those people.

Thanks anyway.

[MonkeyBrain]

No.



Pretty much. You might be able to reset the infinity stops for the longest cammed lenses.



I'm not sure whether there are differences between different generations of the Horseman/Topcor lenses.



Not necessarily. Infinity stops can be reset to account for different flange-to-film registers, but actual FL also often varies in different ways from the marked FL. Any given lens might be close enough for you, or it might not.



Probably, though I don't know which FLs start to get you in trouble. There are two versions of the adapter - a fixed one and a focusing one. The focusing one may have been introduced to address vignetting - it has its own bellows and focusing rails, and makes the camera very awkward to use hand-held. Per Horseman spec, it also adds almost 2 lb to the weight of the camera.



If you want to go long and still use a RF, a Technika is what you need.



IIRC the focusing adapter back is Graflok; I don't remember about the fixed one.



In both cases it depends heavily on the condition of the particular sample. My VH-R is fine.

Anyway, the bottom line is that it's going to be somewhere between impractical and impossible to use a 6x9 Horseman as a 4x5 RF camera. Save up for that Technika. (EDIT: or per Dan's comment, look into what you can do with telephoto lenses on a Graphic.)

Thanks, that's the kind of info I was hoping for. very helpful.

On the basis of your post, I now consider the Horseman struck off the list of contenders.

Unless of course someone has a different view on some of these points.

But there's enough bad news there to make me run a mile

Thanks again...

[Tin Can]

I just unpacked 4 Mamiya RB DDS sheet film holders. I never knew they existed until I spotted them on eBay.

Mamiya RB can use them and Grafmatics.

No nasty roll film required...

SLR 2x3.

[Peter York]

One option with the top rangefinder pacemaker speed/crowns is to add a kalart rangefinder to the side. With this method you can quickly switch between two lenses. Also, if you are patient and willing to go with the common lenses for these cameras you can find lenses with their cam on ebay.

The best option, though, is a Linhof.