Page 1 of 15 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 145

Thread: What's happened with moderators since my last 2007 presence here?

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    What's happened with moderators since my last 2007 presence here?

    I've been away for a few years and just now logged back in. So I've been poking around to see what I've been missing for all these years. While most is still good old same, I came across this thread

    http://www.largeformatphotography.in...n-Effect/page1

    which ultimately I have found disturbing. Perhaps that's been the case of recent, but the attitude shown by some (moderators not excluded) during this thread was quite contrary to thread's intent.

    Let me first say, that I have always appreciated the existence of the LF forum , the huge financial and personal effort that's been needed daily to support it, and all the personal compromises moderators have to endure to do their job. And I have no issue with what the first post stated in the thread. However, what I question is some resposnses, including from moderators themselves, that to me verge on calling for a ban. Here is why:

    Kevin Kolosky made a remark at one point, that forum may not be all it could be given the strict adherence to forum guidelines, which is decided upon by the few volunteering moderators, and that alone could stiffen discussions. He further went to state that, if the forum is not all one expects, then there are technologies these days to start their own. This was quite immediately struck by several replies from Sal Santamaura, which ultimately ended with

    "I respect your right to, within the rules and in a civil manner, post about what you think. In this case, I have no respect for what you think on the subject. I've posted my disagreement with what you think in a civil manner that's within the rules"

    Being contradictory within a single sentence is one thing, but when one openly DISRESPECTS another's right to state what they think, it isn't civil at all. In fact, it may well inflame a discussion without further warnings. Do we need to wait for such to develop further before a ban is called for? Or is it too much policing from my end?

    The thread itself was an announcement and the most unfortunate part of it was the last post by Ken Lee:

    "The moderators don't want to spend the time worrying about the 0.1 % of members who can't or won't abide by the guidelines.

    The tiny fraction of members who can't grasp the intention of the guidelines - or object to them as a matter of principle - will be (and have recently been) escorted out.

    This thread is now closed, for the same reason that it was created: to save moderator time. Now, back to... Large Format Photography.

    Warning: If you start another thread on this topic, you will be banned."


    The last (warning) part I find disrespectful to everyone who pitched in (or who may have come across this thread later on) and it suggests to me that Mr. Lee failed to comply with his own original statement. Unless, of course, we are actually being faced with the new moderation style, one that simply goes: I'm the boss because I can "escort you out".

    Now, am I being banned for bringing it up again? Is this what we want to agree with as calling a civil way of making everyone feeling at home and free to state their views? It isn't an issue for me to have politics and religions removed from the site, it most certainly is a right call in my view. But we all need to be careful with what and how we state it. The timing of our posts could prove critical too.

    I have been on many forums over the years, photography or not, but I have NEVER seen a moderator go to such an extent to show his true colors in the end. Or was it a misstep not exactly thought through before posting? Same as some who had misspoken, only later having to apologize?
    Witold
    simplest solutions are usually the most difficult ...

  2. #2
    Kirk Gittings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Albuquerque, Nuevo Mexico
    Posts
    9,864

    Re: What's happened with moderators since my last 2007 presence here?

    You are taking this thread completely isolated from the context in which it was created. You would need to read all previous threads for about a year or two previous to really understand the genesis of it.
    Thanks,
    Kirk

    at age 73:
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep"

  3. #3

    Re: What's happened with moderators since my last 2007 presence here?

    Kirk,

    I've always appreciated how you ran moderation. I did read MOST of the thread, granted not all. However, the way it was ended by Ken is absolutely appalling. Forum's behavioral guidelines are part of taking the opinionated culture of diverse minds into a respectful direction. It CANNOT be done by suggesting that a thread on such topic can no longer be started started under the penalty of being expelled. When such statement comes from a moderator, it makes it that much worse.

    It has just been suggested to me, through PM, that I delete this thread because of, well ... the threat that ended it. I've had a few of my own mishaps while posting replies, but I usually had the guts to make it right. However, we all have opinions and when they are just that, we all need be able to see it as such and nothing more. I felt that Kevin had a valid point and came across nobody taking his side (I don't believe I'm the only one in agreement). If anything, he came under attacks, after which he tried to re-state his thoughts in somewhat different ways. But in the end, up until the end, it was about a few taking up a thread that, I also agree, should have been a locked announcement. However, it was likely to start a thread on the same topic anyways.

    In the end, I made this thread ONLY because of how it was ended. It had no place to be. As you know more than anyone, moderating a forum, especially a frequented one, takes a lot. But it is not possible to moderate effectively, if a threatening statement is made of the mentioned kind. And THAT is the actual topic I wished to bring about.
    Witold
    simplest solutions are usually the most difficult ...

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de Porciúncula
    Posts
    5,808

    Re: What's happened with moderators since my last 2007 presence here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witold Grabiec View Post
    It has just been suggested to me, through PM, that I delete this thread ...
    You should. Most of us are tired of this topic and really don't welcome a re-discussion of something that has been discussed to death. You appear to have missed a lot over the years. Welcome back, but enjoy the forum for what it is not what you remember it to be (or wish it was).

    p.s. I got a 5-day ban for writing something that really didn't violate the rules... but I may have incited it by stating that it was "on the line". That experience did a good thing for me, which was to better understand how the slightest hint to "trolling" can escalate and cause grief to those kind enough to moderate this fine forum.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    San Clemente, California
    Posts
    3,804

    Re: What's happened with moderators since my last 2007 presence here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witold Grabiec View Post
    ...several replies from Sal Santamaura, which ultimately ended with

    "I respect your right to, within the rules and in a civil manner, post about what you think. In this case, I have no respect for what you think on the subject. I've posted my disagreement with what you think in a civil manner that's within the rules"

    Being contradictory within a single sentence is one thing, but when one openly DISRESPECTS another's right to state what they think, it isn't civil at all...
    I suspect you fail to understand the subtle nuances of language in my post.

    Here's what it said to Kevin Kolosky, broken down into individual thoughts:

    • I respect your right to post your opinion in the thread.
    • I disagree with and have no respect for the specific opinion you've posted about actions the moderators are taking concerning the thread's subject.


    It's very important that I used bold italics for "what" and you quoted me making the larger phrase bold italics. My construction, in a very civil manner that didn't attack Kevin personally, communicated that I have no respect for and disagree with the opinion he presented about the moderators' decision. That's a very different thing than saying I don't respect him or his right to post that opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Witold Grabiec View Post
    ...I felt that Kevin had a valid point and came across nobody taking his side...
    The reason nobody came to Kevin's defense is because he insistently posted that the forum should change to be what he wants it to be, not what the owner and moderators want it to be. This forum is a private venue, where there is no freedom of speech, whether you, Kevin or anyone else thinks otherwise. If the moderators determine that certain things violate the rules and posting them will lead to being "escorted out the door," they're perfectly correct and within their rights to do that escorting. Kevin's persistent failure to accept the rules is disrespectful behavior. It was his lack of respect for the forum community and the rules that prompted me to keep posting. I stand by everything I wrote in that thread -- if Kevin, you or anyone else feels so strongly that the anarchy of an unmoderated forum is preferable, feel free to go start one of your own.

  6. #6
    Kevin Kolosky
    Join Date
    Jun 1999
    Posts
    791

    Re: What's happened with moderators since my last 2007 presence here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    I suspect you fail to understand the subtle nuances of language in my post.

    Here's what it said to Kevin Kolosky, broken down into individual thoughts:

    • I respect your right to post your opinion in the thread.
    • I disagree with and have no respect for the specific opinion you've posted about actions the moderators are taking concerning the thread's subject.


    It's very important that I used bold italics for "what" and you quoted me making the larger phrase bold italics. My construction, in a very civil manner that didn't attack Kevin personally, communicated that I have no respect for and disagree with the opinion he presented about the moderators' decision. That's a very different thing than saying I don't respect him or his right to post that opinion.



    The reason nobody came to Kevin's defense is because he insistently posted that the forum should change to be what he wants it to be, not what the owner and moderators want it to be. This forum is a private venue, where there is no freedom of speech, whether you, Kevin or anyone else thinks otherwise. If the moderators determine that certain things violate the rules and posting them will lead to being "escorted out the door," they're perfectly correct and within their rights to do that escorting. Kevin's persistent failure to accept the rules is disrespectful behavior. It was his lack of respect for the forum community and the rules that prompted me to keep posting. I stand by everything I wrote in that thread -- if Kevin, you or anyone else feels so strongly that the anarchy of an unmoderated forum is preferable, feel free to go start one of your own.

    Boy, how did I miss all of these people talking about me?

    I accept the rules. If I did not I would have, I assume, been kicked off the site. Rather, I disagree with the rules, which I do not see as disrespectful.

    I notice that a V Bulletin license can be had for under $400.00. Besides the license, what else does one need for a forum like this one. I would imagine a server or two, and some storage space. What else? How much would it cost per month? Perhaps if there were enough members here who would rather participate in a rule free forum, and who would contribute to that goal, we could get one started.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    San Clemente, California
    Posts
    3,804

    Re: What's happened with moderators since my last 2007 presence here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin J. Kolosky View Post
    ...Perhaps if there were enough members here who would rather participate in a rule free forum, and who would contribute to that goal, we could get one started.
    If there are other members here who would embrace your anarchy forum (can't title it with any specific subject like photography, since there would be no rules), I encourage their contributions to you and migration there ASAP.

  8. #8
    http://www.spiritsofsilver.com tgtaylor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    4,728

    Re: What's happened with moderators since my last 2007 presence here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    "...what the owner and moderators want it [the forum] to be..."
    Sal has raised a damn good question: What do the owner and moderatrors want the forum to be? The owner no longer shoots or believes in large format or film and has stated so in no uncertain terms on this forum and neither do most of the moderators, Ken Lee - being the (sole?) exception.

    So what do the owner and moderators want the forum to be?

    Thomas

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    739

    Re: What's happened with moderators since my last 2007 presence here?

    Quote Originally Posted by tgtaylor View Post
    Sal has raised a damn good question: What do the owner and moderatrors want the forum to be? The owner no longer shoots or believes in large format or film and has stated so in no uncertain terms on this forum and neither do most of the moderators, Ken Lee - being the (sole?) exception.

    So what do the owner and moderators want the forum to be?

    Thomas
    QT Luong no longer shoots large format? Are you sure about that? Rick Denney, a mod, clearly shoots large format. I'm not sure who the other mods are to be honest but you're making quite a claim and I'd be interested in hearing how you came to this conclusion.

  10. #10
    http://www.spiritsofsilver.com tgtaylor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    4,728

    Re: What's happened with moderators since my last 2007 presence here?

    Quote Originally Posted by welly View Post
    QT Luong no longer shoots large format? Are you sure about that? Rick Denney, a mod, clearly shoots large format. I'm not sure who the other mods are to be honest but you're making quite a claim and I'd be interested in hearing how you came to this conclusion.
    Actually QT said so himself right here on this forum on a couple of occasions. The first, I believe, was during the thread where Kirk Gitting was claiming that a DSLR could deliver all the movements that a view camera can. (He later toned that down somewhat by saying that there may be some esoteric movement that only a view camera could deliver that he was not aware of.) Not to be outdone Rick Denney then jumped in to say that you could get all view camera movements with a camera phone upon which a member bellied-up to explain that the camera phone could be tilted. LOL!!! Anyway I believe that it was that thread where QT first claimed that LF film no longer had the edge, resolution wise, over the DSLR and that he was shooting DSLR instead of LF. He subsequently reaffirmed that he was no longer shooting LF in another thread. But to QT's credit he has never really bashed LF or film like many others here and now thinking back he based his claim of DLSR's superior resolution on the fact that you could stitch with a DSLR.

    As far as Mr Denny, well I personally don't believe that he shoots film much less LF film, and has demonstrated a decided prejudice against those that do. Take, for example, the thread that I started yesterday regarding storage for mounted film transparencies. Mr Denny moved it to the lounge because he said it wasn't LF. Yet running concurrently with mine and for some time now is a thread on stitching a Toronto church with a DSLR in which the author states "I doubt 5% of the folks shooting LF are making prints that need LF." Now since one thread was sent to the lounge while the other remained in place a good case could be made that the wrong thread (mine) was sent to the lounge. Clearly it should have been Mr. Richard's thread because it is truly all about small format digital and how it is superior to LF film. It's true that I mentioned 35mm, 6x45 and 6x7 but I shoot 35, 645, 6x7, 6x9, 4x5 and 8x10 film cameras and my main interest was in 6x7 storage which, I might add, is commonly shot with 6x7 film backs on LF cameras. (I also have a 6x9 back but I am unable to project anything over 6x7 so I seldom use that format except for B&W or color prints.) Moreover, I wasn't extoling the benefits of film vs digital as in the Richards post extols digital over film but was merely looking for a better storage medium for mounted slides than the Office Max/Depot card file boxes I have been using.

    But Mr. Richards has a valid point when he asserts that LF is commercially dead and that "If the camera fairy gave me a top end MF digital back and a 6x9 camera, I would dump LF because it would not make sense to use it instead for the images I shoot." And many photographer have, in fact, made that switch with more switching to the small format DSLR (as QT) then to the larger (and more expensive) digital options. And therein lies the dilemma faced by this forum. So, again raising the question which Mr Sal unknowingly asked: "What do the owner and moderatrors want the forum to be?"

    Thomas

Similar Threads

  1. New moderators closing active threads
    By IanG in forum Feedback
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 13-Aug-2014, 18:24
  2. Spam in my PM box!!! Moderators alert!!!
    By Don Dudenbostel in forum Feedback
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 23-May-2009, 06:13
  3. Advice from moderators requrested
    By jetcode in forum Feedback
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 7-Dec-2007, 07:16
  4. "Presence" Show at the Creative Center
    By Kirk Gittings in forum Announcements
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 7-Sep-2006, 11:22

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •