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Thread: From Ebony RW45 to 8x10?

  1. #1
    Steve Williams_812's Avatar
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    From Ebony RW45 to 8x10?

    I have made several right turns in photography in the past 20 years. After many years of 4x5 use, about 10 with a Zone VI camera, I made a rash decision (something I am good at) and sold lock, stock , and barrel of 4x5 gear and got an old 8x10 Deardorff.

    In short, a disaster. I purchased a tired old camera, leaking bellows, non-functioning knobs, just a bad camera after a pristine Zone VI camera. Same with the lenses---going from modern lenses with good shutters to less than perfect lenses, one in a Packard shutter..... After a few short months I found myself cursing the camera and just wanting the 4x5 back. So I dump it all and purchase a new Ebony RW45, three mint condition lenses, new holders, new meter, blah, blah, blah....

    That was about a year ago. Have made several hundred negatives with it and there is nothing wrong with them. About two months ago I started going through the 8x10 contact sheets I had made and was just astounded (again) at how much elegant life there is in those images. I had been so angry with the beater camera that I had never really allowed myself to really look at the 100 or so negatives I had made.

    To keep this short, I find myself again wanting to produce those contact images that I just cannot produce in 4x5. Obviously I have to ask myself if I am just not doing the same thing all over....

    So here is my question for you seasoned 8x10 users, perhaps you can detect the crap in my thinking.

    1. I believe there is a genuine formal difference in the quality of the 8x10 contact that cannot be replicated with a 4x5 camera. This is something independent of the picture content.

    2. There is a fundamental and drastic difference between working in 4x5 and 8x10. The ritual and process has different demands and affects the final image as a result of that ritual---reflective, meditative, comtemplative, etc...

    3. I suspect my displeasure with the camera was not the format as much as frustration with a disfunctional tool.... had I purchased something of similar quality to the Zone VI, had I bought a Deardorff that did not leak, that I could actually raise the lens and not have it slip because the locking knob would not tighten, I believe I would still be shooting 8x10.

    4. I can accept life without enlarging the 8x10. (I have an 8x10 enlarger, I use it to make 20x24 contact sheets from 35mm negs)

    5. I will be 50 this July, I'm not too old to start lugging an 8x10 around am I?

    I am looking at two cameras----an excellent condition Deardorff or Zone VI. A Wisner would be OK. Would love an Ebony but that is just not going to happen. I could sell my truck I suppose....

    And while I have 3 lenses for the 4x5 I generally use one. I think I could shoot for a long time with just a 240.

    Any theraputic or psychological help would be appreciated before I tell my wife I am going to make some changes again...

    steve
    Steve Williams
    Scooter in the Sticks

  2. #2

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    From Ebony RW45 to 8x10?

    I've been "going digital" for practical work, and have been tempted to go to 8x10 contact prints as a counterpoint. I understand the frustration of using funky cameras – but I'd be cautious about a wooden 8x10 anyway - after all, you are much more likely to bang it because it is bigger and heavier. I've seen some good deals on older 8x10 monorails – some of them, like the Sinar Norma, the Toyo G, the older Arcas, the simplier Linhofs – aren't that heavy but are far sturdier and more precise than an old Deardorff... But I have nightmares from assisting old time pros who were still using Dorfs in their studios in the early 1980s - the wobble, the shake, the horror.

    Guess I'd look at 240 repro lenses too.

    Then there is also ULF - 7x17s, etc... if you're stuck with contact printing, might as well go large ....mmmmmm

  3. #3

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    From Ebony RW45 to 8x10?

    Steve, Been there myself. I went from using a beat-up old 8x10 Deardorff that I restored to a brand new Wisner 5x7. I had used the 8x10 for over 10 years and was just plain burned out dealing with the camera. So I plunged ahead and bought a new camera. That's when my tale of woes started. About a year after using the 5x7 I like you took a look at the 8x10 contact prints. I had thought that the 8x10 format was the problem. It turns out that the Deardorff was the source of my pain. So I went ahead and purchased a brand new Wisner 8x10. What a difference a new camera can make. The Wisner was like a new experience.....one that I would not soon forget.

    After I had been using the Wisner 8x10 I decided that I HAD to have a 7x17 conversion back for the 5x7. Seemed logical at the time. I thought that I would enjoy the format. And the back would justify keeping the 5x7. I ordered the 7x17 back.....big mistake. Once again I decided that if 8x10 was good.....11x14 must be better. So one month after I had my 7x17 back I sold the entire 5x7/7x17 Wisner. I bought a slightly used Wisner 11x14 complete with holders and a case. I also sold my Hasselbald and bought...you guessed it, an 8x20 conversion back for my 8x10. The larger format bug had bitten hard.

    So why the history lesson you ask? We all experience the format confusion. I looked very serious at a 16x20 over the 11x14. Thankfully I decided that the 16x20 was not pratical at the time. So now I have the 8x10, the 8x20 back, and the 11x14. I have sold my enlarger and moved on to nothing but contact printing. So here is my opinion.

    Points 1 and 2. Right on the money. Big difference for me between a 4x5 negative and an 8x10 negative. I will also add that there are not as many with this opinion in the community. I enjoy the contact printing processes. At one point in time I did toy around with the idea of a Zone VI 8x10 enlarger. No longer will I think about that one. Again in my opinion the contact print has a look, feel and quality that is impossible to compare to an enlarged print. Again this is all my opinion. There is no positive proof on this statement.

    Point 3. Again you are right on the money. I feel that some cameras are better off to restore and display. Nothing beats history like a hundred plus year old camera on a wooden tripod for a conversation piece.

    Point 4. The voice of maturity. The 8x10 contact print is still the age old standard. I for one have moved on to Azo as my standard print. This is why I levitate to a large negative. The Azo print is one that makes the most sense when contact printing. Much easier to work with over traditional enlarging paper.

    Point 5. 50 years young is never too old to lug around a camera. Just make sure that you choose the right camera. There are many lighter 8x10 models out there. Given your choice I would go with the Zone VI 8x10. Lighter and esier to use over a Deardorff. I say plunge into the 8x10.

    Hope this helps.

    -Bruce

  4. #4
    tim atherton's Avatar
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    From Ebony RW45 to 8x10?

    Unless you are someone who uses a lot of extreme movements - long lenses, close-ups of lichen or whatever, an awful lot of the encumberance and frustration of an 8x10 can be lessened by a lighter camera. They do tend to be more modern, ergo more expensive - Canham metal, Phillips, Gandolfi variant, Wehman (definately a good cheaper option), ultralight Gowland (but with it's own set of frustrations).

    Otherwise, going for function over form (having also gone the wobbly frustrating Deardorff route), I would chose a nice condition Kodak Master 8x10 if I were doing it again - even if you needed to order new bellows. If I didn't have a Phillips, that would probably be my choice.

    Using some of the lighter cameras mentioned, you can also use a lighter tripod and head. The biggest weight is then the holders.

    And either a 240 G-Claron or a 250 Fuji 6.7 would be a good addition.

    Just a few thoughts.
    You'd be amazed how small the demand is for pictures of trees... - Fred Astaire to Audrey Hepburn

    www.photo-muse.blogspot.com blog

  5. #5

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    From Ebony RW45 to 8x10?

    I have to say that 8x10 is my favorite format, having tried 4x5, 5x7, 11x14, and 12x20. The contact print is beautiful to behold and the equipment is quite manageable in the field. A good compromise when I look at the overall picture. Pun not intended although I do find the 8x10 ground glass very easy to look at, you can check the overall composition, focus, corners, all at once without much scanning around. I don't know if I just got lucky with the Deardorffs but I have always found mine (I've had a few) quite rigid with very smooth movements and positive locking action. They are very well designed and made, beautiful classic, and simple and pure joy to use IMHO. I'm sure there are other cameras that are as well made or even better, I've just gotten accustomed to the way my Deardorff handles and can focus more on the picture when I'm photographing. Good luck.

  6. #6

    From Ebony RW45 to 8x10?

    Go for it! Get a new 8x10! Sell everything else and focus on this format! Buy some AZO Grade 2 and 3, Pyrocat HD and Efke PL100. If this does not inspire you to compose better while having fun I do not know what will. This is my own set up and my photos and prints are superior to anything else I have done before (i.e. Leica negs, Hassie negs, 8x10 negs enlarged onto Seagull):

  7. #7

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    From Ebony RW45 to 8x10?

    Sorry to slam Deardorffs so badly - I'm sure a well taken care of or restored 'Dorf is a thing a beauty (and still tight and accurate), but the ones used everyday for forty years in a commerical studio are to be avoided! I suspect that many of the ones on eBay are of the latter variety.

  8. #8

    From Ebony RW45 to 8x10?

    1. The only difference between 4x5 and 8x10 is the size of the groundglass, as we all know, but many people report being able to compose better on the larger groundglass. That said, I think a dedicated 4x5 user could probably train herself to get the same results as on 8x10.

    2. The process seems very much the same to me while working with the camera. Making much of a transcendental difference between the formats seems a bit over the top -- they're both view camera formats with a 4:5 ratio.

    4. Well, if you already have an 8x10 enlarger, it seems it'd be crazy not to be using 5x7 or 8x10. That's enough excuse for me!

    Deals are out there on the studio monorails right now -- they're cheaper than the old field cameras. Working out of your car with one of those is a good compromise, and it'll force you not to re-sell your 4x5, which would be silly since you've already bought back into the format once.

    I personally wouldn't buy into 8x10 again. I'd have gotten into 11x14 had I known what I know now. But you've been there and want to go back, so...

  9. #9

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    From Ebony RW45 to 8x10?

    A few years back, I got the 8x10 bug. Bought a used Orbit 8x10 that seems to weigh about the same as a 1948 Buick and an old Carl Meyer 300mm howitzer that seems to weigh about the same. Both are in my attic unused. Dealing with that much weight just absolutely kills any desire to go out and photograph. I'm waist deep into middle age, and the heavy gear inspired more couch time than photo time. Perhaps I need a lighter 8x10 (maybe the Canham, but can't afford it), because I do love the look of contact prints. Now, I'm using a 5x7 for contact prints, and I'm happy with that.

  10. #10
    Steve Williams_812's Avatar
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    From Ebony RW45 to 8x10?

    Thanks for all the feedback.

    Several ideas have been reinforced---

    1. The camera does matter. I used to think the camera was just a tool and that I would adapt to anything that came along. For me the truth is that I embrace certain cameras and reject others. I can judge this by output. I had a complete OM-2s system with many lenses, perfect condition, no photographs. Bought a Leica M6 with three lenses and have been shooting 2 or more rolls of TX a week faithfully for years. Had an old Crown Graphic, didn't make many pictures. Got a Zone VI camera and have been shootings hundreds of negatives a year and continuing with the Ebony. I am certain now as Bruce Rathbun expressed so well that it is not the format that's the problem, but the junker camera I was trying to use. Just as I no longer buy junker cars because they piss me off, I guess I should apply that wisdom to camera's too....

    2. There is some magic to the 8x10 contact print. John O' Connell's response tripped me up a bit---not dfference between 4x5 and 8x10 other than size. At some level I know that is true. Only after some thought did I realize that size does matter, and it impacts process and ritual, if only because of the demands of gravity. When I was shooting commercially I would have stood by the no difference idea. Shooting personally, taking time, doing what I want and what interests me, I see that a jeweler's hammer and a roofers hammer have more differences than size---they do different jobs and they are not interchangeable

    3. I'll wait and get the right camera this time.

    Anyone interested in an Ebony RW45?

    thanks,

    steve
    Steve Williams
    Scooter in the Sticks

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