Just posting a link that might be helpful so those who scan 8x10 on Epson v700 - v850 scanners. I have two of these being machined for me and I will let you know how well it works out.
http://bendolman-photography-journal...0-film-on.html
Printable View
Just posting a link that might be helpful so those who scan 8x10 on Epson v700 - v850 scanners. I have two of these being machined for me and I will let you know how well it works out.
http://bendolman-photography-journal...0-film-on.html
Very interesting - Thanks for sharing !
Looking forward to your own experience with these.
Pierre
Ok the results came with an added bonus - better sharpness! So the holder is very basic as expected but the aluminum is sturdy enough to mount the negative with decent tension with tape. Below are the pictures of the simple frame and the 1200 DPI scan from a 8x10 negative that shows the added sharpness with the holder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre 2
Holder in Epson v700
http://www.netsoft2k.com/Docs/Media/...20(Custom).jpg
Holder on lightbox with negative
http://www.netsoft2k.com/Docs/Media/...20(Custom).jpg
8x10 1200 DPI Crop Without Holder
http://www.netsoft2k.com/Docs/Media/...-1200-Crop.jpg
8x10 1200 DPI Crop Without Holder (Increased sharpness)
http://www.netsoft2k.com/Docs/Media/...-1200-Crop.jpg
I got this for color negatives but I haven't shot any color negatives just yet (still new to 8x10). However, I do have Portra film that I will be shooting when family is in town during 4th of July. I am fairly confident that this will avoid newton rings.
Hope this helps.
Pali
Very interesting.
Seems many of us have various ways of finding 'good enough' to quote from another thread.
I use a different, but not better method, unnecessary to specify again, as it's in the archive here somewhere.
Thanks for sharing.
I scan my "snapshot" 8x10 negatives on my Epson 4990 scanner by placing a piece of Tru-Vue Ultra Vue glass over the negative while it's laying directly on the platen glass. Works perfect for me :) I don't find anti-newton rings and the sharpness/quality is pretty good considering the scanner.
BTW, do you have any more aluminum 8x10 negative frames? I'd buy one
I'd buy one as well
Pali,
I like the idea very much, but what would stop me from doing this (or buying this) is that I couldn't scan a full 8x10 negative, including the black borders.
Am I correct in thinking that, or might it be possible?
I know it's nitpicking, but I'm one of those people who prints/scans 100% of every image, including borders.
Ari brings up a good point...I didn't realize the borders were being cropped off :/
Ari, you're absolutely correct. The frame is cropped by the holder which sucks. The only way to avoid it would be to cut the holder to the exact size of the film and then use clear tape to mount the negative. Or you can scan the negative and then Photoshop the cropped layer on top. The align-layers tool should make the process easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari
Knowing the sharpness benefit, it will be hard for me to scan without it now. Posting another negative that I re-scanned to see if sharpness is indeed a major improvement and once again, holder is significantly sharper on my scanner.
Full Scans [Without holder on left]
http://www.netsoft2k.com/Docs/Media/...arison%20A.jpg
100% Zoom Resolution Comparison Unsharpned Originals [Without holder on left]
http://www.netsoft2k.com/Docs/Media/...arison%20B.jpg
For those who are interested in getting one, I am sure that I can make it work if there is enough interest. I would be passing it to you guys at cost but keep the following in mind. This was made at my dad's CNC shop that is his retirement business. He wouldn't mind making a few of these but his shop is one that moves slow :) and he would have to squeeze these into his schedule. I could get an idea from him on how much it would be at cost for him but I am pretty sure that it will be cheaper if we can get multiples, 10+, vs. just 2 or 3. The only cost I know so far is that he paid approx $20 on ebay for the 2 aluminum sheets.
Pali
I will want one.
Whatever it takes.
Thanks!
Would order one as well, but not at whatever price !!!
Otherwise, a local photographer told me that he scans his Delta 100 8x10 negatives on a V750 but IN COLOR. Anybody else is doing the same ? Any recognized advantage ? (he switches back to b&w in photoshop or Light Room).
Looking forward to the availability for one of those aluminum pieces...
Thanks !
From your linked journal entry:
"I sourced three sheets of aluminium with differing thicknesses ranging from 1mm, 1.5mm and 2mm so I could see which thickness gave me the optimum focus and structural strength...After quite a few test scans I decided the 1.5mm thick aluminium sheet was best which gave excellent sharp scans and was strong and stable enough for repeated use, the 1mm aluminium was too thin with the film sometimes relaxed onto the scanner glass and was not stable, the 2mm aluminium was too thick leading to a slight loss in focus and sharpness when compared to the 1.5mm film support, it was quite surprising how much a difference 0.5mm made."
Epson scanners are notorious for sample variation with respect to locating the plane of focus at different heights above their glass. While 1.5mm tested as optimum for your scanner, others' might need different thicknesses. Epson, BetterScanning and ScanScience all acknowledge this by making their smaller film holders height-adjustable.
While I would also be interested in purchasing the 8x10 mounting system you've devised, what happens if my scanner (I don't have one yet; just thinking about it) "wants" a different aluminum thickness?
Order the thinnest one and then shim?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura
--Darin
I'd be interested in buying an 8x10 aluminum negative frame like this just for the convenience of knowing I'm placing the negative in the correct area so I'm spending less time repositioning the negative. It would actually make my scans go a lot quicker because I can just place a piece of Tru-Vue Ultra Vue glass on top of the negative without having to do a preview scan to see if I've aligned it correctly. (on my scanner I get the sharpest scans when I scan on the platen glass with the Tru-Vue glass on top)
I would DEFINITELY buy a "full frame" version of this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Moe
Thanks for the reminder ! What an incredible amount of useful information...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura
The thinnest one was described as structurally inadequate. Even if 1.5mm (the thinnest "viable") is ordered, what if a particular Epson scanner's optimum full-area focal plane is lower? Shimming would take the film higher, not lower, than it needs to be. "Mill" the glass? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Darin Boville
Epson scanner sample variation is problematic.
I'll repeat that I'm nitpicking; a sharper scan is what we all want, and the aluminum holder is doubly useful, as Eric stated, for use in quick and easy positioning of the negative on the platen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Netsoft2k
The difference in your scans is quite noticeable.
There seems to be enough interest to make it worth spending more time on this. My dad said that it'll roughly be around 70-80 per piece at cost if he gets them CNC milled at his shop. He also mentioned that it could be cheaper if we get these "pressed" instead but he doesn't have a sheet press.
Regarding the height, I have a few ideas to make this possibly more flexible. I think if this was machined out from a 2.5mm sheet and had a pocket for the negative that was 1.5mm deep, the holder will still be strong yet only increase the height by 1mm. You could even mount 4 plastic screws on the corners to adjust the height upto 3-4 mm which will give a range of 1-5 mm similar to the betterscanning holder.
These could also be made for 5x7.
Let me know if anyone else have any other ideas to try. We could have our own LF branded holders.
Pali
70-80 what per unit?
Assuming we aren't talking dollers / pounds or euros then I'm interested
Bruce
Sorry, US dollars.
Hi Pali,
I suggest you start a Forum Poll, in a new thread, instructions are somewhere...around here.
Perhaps include how much people would pay with shipping. Shipping fragile aluminum may require special consideration.
Ask about the 'black edges' which is called 'rebate' preference.
Then the trick question, which is. At what height does your Epson 7xx or 8xx scanner scan best?
It's a trick question because it reveals 2 things. 1, Actual heights being used. 2, It means that person has already solved his or her problem and will most likely not buy yours.
Unwanted advice, here's more.
Is aluminum the best material? Which grade aluminum? Anodized?
What about liability? Sharp edges cut fingers.
What will be the machined surface smoothness 'RA' be? How about dimensional tolerances, or precise thickness. If 1/2 mm is a big deal, so are a bunch of parameters.
5X7 would be very nice. Be aware 5X7 MAY use a different higher resolution scanning lens which may have different height issues and masking codes to calibrate an Epson.
I prefer NOT including the rebate, so we can tape the film better.
Scanning rebate is imitation contact printing and can be done in Post. Thus not necessary technically.
If you cannot produce and sell for double production cost, you will lose money.
Good luck and have fun with it!
Hopefully!
:)
+1, I could sure use one of these frames on my V700.
Wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Moe
It's a piece of metal with a hole cut in it. Either you want one or you don't.
I made mine on my milling machine in an hour.
So your labor is worthless?Quote:
Originally Posted by vinny
Machine time is free?
Make us all one.
:)
Just tell me how much and take my money! lol... :)
I want to keep this as simple as possible and am only going to do anything to help those who need it. Don't need to make any money from this because it is not going to be a business or anything even remotely close to it. I just think this holder can benefit some of us and for those of us who want one, I am going to try to pass this to you at cost. I can't say for sure but I would imagine a custom made holder from a machine shop would come at a ridiculous price. If anyone knows some place where we could get it made at a lower rate, please let us know because that would of course be the preference. As FYI, my dad's cost is an estimate based on labor he has to pay for the machine operator plus what it would cost to get the aluminum sheets. Don't know what else to say other than that I can understand that a simple piece like this should not cost this much but when I do the math given his setup, it adds up.
Now on to a quick update, my dad is checking with his contacts to see if he can get these sheets pressed and then mill only the necessary areas to keep the cost low. That said we are dealing with very low numbers and it will be challenging to get a better price on it than doing it in house. I am also going to see if he can have a modified version made to see if we can make it more flexible with height variations.
Not going to make any promises but I will try my best to help if you are still interested knowing this will be around 70-80 USD excluding shipping. This will ship from MD, USA so factor that in when you are thinking about it.
Pali
Netsoft2k- When it gets up and running can you place me on the waitlist? (would it be possible to get one that shows the full 8x10 image?)
Only if you'll help me figure out exactly how to make one for us and take some pressure off me :) Keep in mind I am just a fellow photographer who wants to help but not sure the best way to do that just yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by axs810
Anyways, I am wondering if we should compromise slight borders on the top and bottom edge so mounting is easier? Those should be just pure black parts that can easily be added later in post.
Pali
Or just make two versions of the film guide. I'm just looking for an aluminum frame guide for scanning 8x10 so I don't have to waste time readjusting the negative on the platen glass. The plastic film guide that comes with the Epson scanners are rubbish but if there was one made out of aluminum maybe that would allow me to have a better workflow since I put a piece of glass over the negative anyways.
I wish I could help but when it comes to machining things I'm of no use :(
An alternative material, by Ben Horne. (08:10)
https://youtu.be/1hWtiJSMckQ
His very appropriate mount material is about a penny width, as he puts it. However it it is not adjustable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliverto
My sample penny, slight worn, is 0.58" which is 1.47 mm which is 'good enough' to be 1.5 mm. So...
I use a height of 3 mm.
Solutions vary.
Thanks ! What I like with the rubber material is that I believe there is then essentially no risk of scratching the scanner glass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliverto
For the aluminum piece, 70-80 USD is too much to my taste - well worth the price but over my threshold for not doing something myself. Too bad my plasma cutter is not on a cnc. Plasma cutter, router, whatever... Once on a CNC machine, the actual cutting is a matter of seconds (but that obviously does not consider the time spent to optimize the different pieces on a big sheet, procuring the big sheet, checking the result of each sheet, paying for the CNC machine etc...) CNC plasma cutter will provide a really clean cut requiring minimal finishing (much better than what I can do with the cutter by hand).
The milling has the added advantage of enabling a recessed lip if wanted but otherwise, I would inquire into laser cutting outfit.
Simply as a potential customer expressing my desires, at that price, I would prefer to be looking at a piece of polished (to avoid scratches) stainless steel for strength.
As for the recess (which I suppose is the rebate in proper english), if is very narrow, as to allow to view practically the whole negative, one thing to consider could be 8x10 sheet film dimension variability (if there are any between batches/manufacturers). One thing I would really like with the recess is that I believe that it would prevent any light from the scanner light diffracting past the film edges... Hum.. I will wait and see what others have to say. That rebate (if that is the proper word) could then really provide an advantage but only along the very edges of the scanned negative ... And maybe some thin felt could be used under the aluminum to protect the glass...
Thanks for the thread, initiative and sharing your experience. Looking forward to further developments, and comments...
Thanks for posting this! This sure does make things a lot simpler and gives everyone the opportunity to make one for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliverto
Had one of these precision milled from plain steel by a local machine shop and painted matte black. Chose steel, 1st, because the shop had 1.2 mm material in stock, which would allow for shimming to greater height if necessary, and 2nd, for the ability to try magnets for film holding at some later date.
I used the dimensions on the original drawing, except for the height of the inside hole. I specified 246 mm, not 248 mm, based on my own measurements which showed that to be the proper height for the actual image area of my negatives. I shot with mostly older Fidelity and Lisco holders; perhaps the original author's negatives were different.
The frame came out flat, and did not require taping to the scanner. The slightly greater weight of steel vs. aluminum or plastic helped. And as you can see from the attached, I needed very little magic tape to stretch and attach a negative. If worried about scratching the scanner glass, one could either put a bit of tape or the original Epson film area guide under the frame . However, the frame was perfectly smooth and deburred inside and out.
My machinist was John Zug at Quicksilver Precision Tool in Florissant, Colorado, a small town west of Colorado Springs. (http://www.quicksilvertool.com/) As he says on his homepage, he specializes in custom surgical instruments and positioner fabrication. The execution was excellent++. Serious work — see the attached photos. It could've been made by Epson. I paid seventy-five dollars with painting, but John said he feels he would need to get at least ninety dollars to do them one off manually. He does have a CNC mill however, and said there could be significant savings if he could get orders for at least five at a time, which would justify programming the part for the CNC machine. Other materials are available. Shipping would be extra.
John gave me his permission to post his info, and would welcome inquiries directly from forum members.
Frame being milled.
I made three of these holders, the first using the dimensions given on Ben Dolmans' website. A test scan with this first one showed the image out of alignment top to bottom - far enough out of alignment so as to be basically unusable. So for the next one I altered the dimensions to make the hole for the film to be 245mm long (very close to the value suggested by Chuck). I made the top cutout (the area used for scanner calibration) the same size as shown on the website (12mm), and decreased the top bar width to 11mm (as opposed to the original 18mm).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck S.
A test scan on the second holder showed that these new dimensions would work for me so I made the final holder to the same dimensions. I would recommend making a mockup for yourself out of matboard or some other easily workable material before committing to cutting metal.
Bob
We should make a sticky thread for 8x10 scanning with the V series. It seems there a bunch of techniques, each with pros and cons. Home made area guides, wet mounting, ANR glass overlays etc... It would be nice if you could look in one thread and get a really good idea of how to approach the subject. I am on the fence between buying a sheet of ANR glass, using it as an overlay with pennys at the edges, and copying Ben Horne's rubber overlay solution. I really would prefer to be able to get a good scan with the film edges in tact. Searching around the forum just seems less efficient... :-)
I'll work on it after I play around with a solution, if somebody doesn't beat me to it!
I'd be really interested in something like this to improve my 8x10 scans on my V750
Well I found a piece of matte board that is the right thickness so I tried to cut one of these frames out using that. What a mess! It's challenging with only rulers and an exacto, also the board leaves rough edges and is difficult to perfect. I think I'm going to look for one of the rubberized pads. I was able to do a test scan and the image was sharp though, so for me that was a huge bit of motivation.
Has anybody been able to scan the film holder edges with mounting frames they've made? Ultimately that's what I'd like to do.
When I have time Im going to stop by this 3D print store by my house and see if they could 3D print a new 8x10 frame for the v750 series and 4990...it seems doable right?
Had a piece of 1mm aluminum laying around so cut myself one just a bit smaller than the Epson film guide with tab and all :
Mistakes (it seems that I like to make them myself) :
1) The tab is obviously only there to help you lift out the flimsy film guide : Does not to be reproduced on a rigid frame.
2) While it fils nicely in film holders, 8x10 Ektascan BRA sheet film is actually not quite 8"x10" : It actually IS smaller. I had allowed the inner dimensions of my new guide to be slightly smaller than Epson negative guide with the idea that it would be easier to tape the negative if it was at least slightly supported by my frame : Not even close as the negative is hanging out not from the inner edges of my holders but from a width of flimsy masking tape. Following advised dimensions should be a big help but I would suggest checking the actual size of the sheet film you are using (found a noticeable difference with very old agfa 8x10 sheet I had on hand.
Now,
8x10 is really quite larger than 4x5. Would appreciate some confirmation that it is indeed possible to attach the negative to a frame with enough tension to keep its surface flat, at a thereby consistent height above the scanner's glass, like the Epson can effectively do for 4x5.
Have been doing some small experiments with 1.5mm glass as well but the results are not yet up to my expectations : It seems that I am able to improve contrast but have yet to see an actual improvement in actual focus. Still have to experiment with various spacers.
This maybe what has been referenced by a previous poster but what about using some of that "museum quality no reflections at all invisible glass" to use to support the negative to the target height ? (around 90$ at a "Michaels store" in Montreal).
Pierre
As would I. I would buy 2 if it made the number high enough for production. Spares are good.
Sounds like an interesting solution, I would have one too... If you're shipping to the EU that is.
Well I finally sat down and cut myself a Ben Horne style 8x10 holder. I used the exact same one he used, which I got from the Target website for about $8 dollars (US).
First, the good news: It works! I made a scan last night that was free of newton rings and acceptably sharp for a print up to maybe 16x20, which I feel like is about the limit of the V700 anyway (esp using using lower res lens).
Now the bad news: It's still not perfect, and not super easy using an exacto. I basically cut the outside using the Epson Film Area Guide as a template. For the inside I used a failed Portra 400 negative to try and get as close to the edges as I could so I could still get a 'full sheet' scan. I was basically successful in that, but I cut a teeny-tiny bit too big, and I have to do more taping of the neg to properly fit it. Honestly, if you have a big light table that would make mounting a LOT easier. I'm thinking work with the film as much as you can with lint free gloves. I may order another $8 dollar pad to see if 2nd time is the charm. Arts and crafts were NEVER my strong suit, but what I did was 'acceptable'.
Is somebody here still trying to organize a batch order of a metal holder? A precision cut metal holder would be ideal IMO. I have no idea where to even start looking as far as a metal shops. The rubber mat thing works ok but if someone organizes an order for the original metal design COUNT ME IN. :-)
I wet mount 8x10's directly on the platen glass. Scans look pretty sharp. :)
Do you mask off any areas on the scanner so you don't get mounting fluid in the scanner somehow?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew O'Neill
Is this going to happen? Seems like a lot of interest.
I would still be happy to arrange it through my dad but I got the feeling that price was not reasonable for everyone at around $70-$80 USD. Does anyone know another source to potentially get it cheaper? Happy to help if it's needed.
Pali
Having made several of these from aluminum myself, I think $70-$80 USD is reasonable.
Bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pali K