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The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
I've haven't been diligently reading these forums the past several months and just yesterday I caught word of Astia Quickloads getting discontinued. Even though I only use Astia for maybe 1 out of 10 shots, this was disconcerting to say the least. The past few years I've been steeling myself for this moment.
So I anxiously searched around the forum some more to see if any of my other film was affected. In 4x5, I use 160S QL (60%), 400NC (30%), and Astia QL (10%). In 8x10, I use 160S and 400NC equally. Slowly, one by one, I started to learn that every film format that I use is basically discontinued or no longer available in the U.S.
I know this is just the precursor, but to me, yesterday, it really felt like The Film Apocalypse. I had that sinking feeling at first, which turned to determination. Funny, when I began LF a couple years ago I knew this time would come and I always believed that I could roll with it, adapt, and use whatever film was available. But I've come to love and rely on 400NC and 160S QL!
So I jumped online and ordered a huge shipment of film and now I realize I don't have the freezer space to store it all and I don't know the best way to store it if I did. In the past, I've always just ordered film as needed and stored in the fridge!
I've got several questions about how you store your film for maximum longevity.
1) Do you do anything special when placing the film in the freezer? I put the film, in unopened boxes, in Ziploc bags. Any other tips?
2) Is there any problem with thawing the film and then refreezing? Or once thawed, should I transfer the film to the fridge?
3) Has anyone run into issues with condensation or defrosting?
4) Any suggestions on freezers or types of freezer? Upright vs. Chest?
5) How long can I expect the film to last if properly stored? I've read ranges of 6-10 years. What kind of degradation in the film can I expect if frozen for 6 years? How long can I freeze color negative film without any noticeable effects?
6) How cold should the freezer be? Will colder temperatures lead to less degradation over time?
7) Any idea how many 10 sheet boxes of 8x10 I can fit per cubic foot? 20 sheet QL boxes per cubic foot?
Thanks for any tips you can offer!
Side-questions: Anyone know where I can get 8x10 160S? Also, ironically, I learned of Astia QL's demise because I was searching the forums to see if anyone knew where to get 8x10 Astia! I was thinking of trying it out in 8x10 since everyone talks about how beautiful an 8x10 transparency is against a light box. Anyone know where I can get 8x10 Astia? If not, how does everyone find E100G?
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Just put unopened film in the freezer.
If film has been opened, I put it in the refrigerator. You could put it in Zip-Lock bags and then in the freezer.
Leave time for the film to thaw out.
I have frozen film for ten years without any problems.
When I find out that a film is being discontinued, I buy up all I can to keep that film from the hoarders!
Steve
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Once the film has been opened you need to vacuum seal it till the box begins to cave in a bit. No ziplocs are 100 percent air/moisture tight.
That said, I've got film (slide and color neg) from the early 90's that show's no sign of color shift or fog.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
If you are getting a freezer specifically for film, get a chest type freezer which are much less expensive. The hitch is that they are not frost free so you might need to defrost at some point.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
2) Is there any problem with thawing the film and then refreezing? Or once thawed, should I transfer the film to the fridge?
I put opened film back in the freezer, even sheet film. Especially sheet film, because my color sheet film usage is very low, and my wife has banned film from the fridge. I seal them in a ziplock and try to suck all the air out of it, but I have put plain boxes back in the freezer before. I put exposed film back in the freezer in plain cardboard boxes.
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Has anyone run into issues with condensation or defrosting?
No. I have even taken film right out of the freezer and loaded it in holders. No problems, but I would recommend letting it warm up. Kodak recommends 1/2 hour, I believe, for sheet film in boxes.
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How long can I expect the film to last if properly stored?
This is my first-hand experience, with continuously frozen film:
I have found 100 speed color slide film to be practically unaffected for 10 years after expiration. It may go longer. I'm not a pro film photographer that relies on perfect color balance, but I can't see anything wrong with the slides.
I would expect 100 speed B&W film to last 20 years past expiration with no significant degradation. It will go longer, but with steadily increasing fog, grain, and slowness. I have shot lots of Ilford film from the 80s that was fine.
400-speed B&W, I have limited experience with. I would expect it to last at least 10 years past expiration.
For film stored at room temperature and worse circumstances, bets are off, especially for high-speed films. I have seen 3-5 year expired 400 speed B&W film already have increased base fog and grain, which can be significant for 35mm. I have shot some 10-year expired Ektachrome, that was completely junk.
Also note that for whatever reason, sheets of film toward the middle of the box are better off than those on the ends. I had a 100 sheet box of old Ilford B&W that was terribly fogged in from the edges, but only the last 20 or so sheets in the stack. The inner 50 sheets or so were perfectly fine. So I guess if I was stockpiling film I would get the largest capacity boxes possible.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Dan: At the risk of reiterating things that others have said, here is my procedure:
I have separate upright freezers and refrigerators that I purchased for use only for film. No worries about wives (or anybody else) complaining about valuable food storage space lost. My film freezer is the size that could hold two 20-pound turkeys if I wanted to squeeze them in and take the film out.
Bulk film purchases I put in the freezer after sealing inside food-storage (vacuum-packing) bags. I do not use the vacuum function only the sealing function because I believe the heavy vacuum may be detrimental to long term storage. No scientific data to support that but just my opinion that heavy crushing forces from vacuum sealing against the film packs may not be so good. I try to squeeze out as much air as possible before sealing and I do it in a low humidity environment.
Once a pack is out of the freezer for use I transfer unused amounts to the refrigerator and not back in the freezer. These amounts I keep in zip-lock bags for easy use and replacement.
Simple as that.
As others have said, I have some films that are over 10-years old in storage and I see no degradation.
I hope this helps... and I hope you get no complaints from the wife. I mean, what could possibly be more important than storing discontinued film?
One can always run down to the local supermarket and get another chicken... but not so with many valuable films. One has to make that perfectly clear.
Cheers.
Bob G
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
This is great information!
Bob and Vinny, I hadn't thought about using vacuum-sealed food bags. I'll need to look into that.
Jerold, I think you're right about chest freezers. I looked into them briefly and they do seem a bit less expensive and I haven't found one that's frost free.
BetterSense brought up another interesting point about storing exposed film in the freezer. Is this necessary? I never thought about exposed film degrading over time!
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Sooner or later, quicker with color, the emulsion and the backing will separate, whether frozen or not. All the freezer does is slow the process down.
Moisture is what will ruin your film. An opened box belongs in a cool, dry place. Even with sealed wraps and bags, pulling it in and out of the fridge or freezer every six months will probably ruin your film faster than anything else.
Buy ten sheet boxes of color if you aren't using it fast enough?
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frank Petronio
Moisture is what will ruin your film. An opened box belongs in a cool, dry place. Even with sealed wraps and bags, pulling it in and out of the fridge or freezer every six months will probably ruin your film faster than anything else.
Frank,
Did you experience above? I am doing exactly that for the last 7 years or so, and have not seen any bad side affects
I keep my stock in the freezer, and have a small amount (say 10 sheets or so) in my fridge. Fridge stock empty, thaw freezer stock and re-lad fridge stock..yeah way over kill I guess...
best,
Cor
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
I worked for guys who would throw a half used box of color into a Ziploc and then throw that into the fridge too, with never a second thought, but then they would use it only for tests or toss it after a year or two anyway.
But if you are thinking about long term "film to store as long as possible" then I would only want to freeze it once at the get-go, not cycle it.
My most recent experience was 2006 EXP color neg that had the emulsion lift in spots this Summer. that's four years over, with good but not frozen storage.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
On the other hand, the guy that taught me darkroom work was still working on what may have been a 1000-foot roll of 35mm black and white film--maybe Tri-X. This was about 1970 or so, and he had put that roll, in a (large) taped metal can, in the freezer in the early 50's. He'd been pulling it out, thawing it, cutting off what he needed to load a bunch of cassettes, and refreezing it that whole time. His words: "It's not like milk." No damage that I could see. Maybe the issue you saw was unique to color negative materials.
He passed away in the early 80's and I'll bet there was still film left on that roll.
Rick "who learned about properly print washing from him after having to pay to clean the cloth belt on a print dryer" Denney
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Maybe it's superstition, but I prefer to refrigerate film rather than freeze it in our auto-defrosting freezer. The freeze/thaw cycle seems pretty destructive, judging by the roads around here.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
I bought one of those little freeze-dry bagging machines but still haven't used it! I put
sheet film which is still in factory-sealed foil packs in the freezer, with two added tight
poly bag outside each. Once the inner foil itself is open, I don't re-freeze the film due
to condensation risk, though I could start actually using my freeze-dry rig, in which I'd
certainly double or triple the outside layers. But in my experience, Fuji sheet film starts
to lose some of its color balance characteristics anyway in about a decade, even when
frozen. So I wouldn't keep any Astia around that long. I too am going to miss it, and
only have one box of 8X10 left in the freezer.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Thanks again for everyone's comments and suggestions. I thought I'd give everyone an update.
It turns out I only have space for an upright freezer, so I got a Frigidaire with a temperature read-out and stocked it with film. I ended up double bagging the film -- individual Ziplocs around each box, squeezing out as much air as possible, then several bagged boxes per larger Ziploc. The temperature read-out is great. I've set the freezer as low as it can go: -10 deg C.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Just some quick anecdotal evidence about freezing film (mainly color transparency). I have been buying and stocking up on Velvia and other films for the past 10 year or so. Whenever I get a chance to pick some up with short dates or even expired ones, I have. I usually just throw it in the freezer and just make sure to let it defrost before using it. Recently I found a box of 5x7 Velvia that I had purchased well after it's expiration date of 1994. It had been in and out of the freezer several times, but I finally decided I had better use it. I was a little skeptical, so I loaded one sheet of the 1994 Velvia on one side and another sheet of current Velvia (that I had cut down from 8x10) on the flip side. I then proceeded to shoot both sheets at the same time on the same subject. So I picked the film up at the lab and looked through it, I could not tell the old from the new. They matched exactly. Asked the lab owner if he could see any difference and he couldn't. This is film that was 16 years past the expiration date and that I had bought after it had been expired. So, at least to me, freezing seems to do the trick. Jim
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Since photography, and especially digital photography, will certainly result in the discontinuing of supplies for us who also occasionally paint and draw. Therefore, I've hoarded enough pencils to last a lifetime. They require no refrigeration!
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jim Jones
Since photography, and especially digital photography, will certainly result in the discontinuing of supplies for us who also occasionally paint and draw. Therefore, I've hoarded enough pencils to last a lifetime
Hi Jim, I am intrigued as to how much film you have bought? I have a feeling film is not going to last my lifetime but being 19 I really can't afford more than about 1 box at the moment....:rolleyes:
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Liam:
Hi Jim, I am intrigued as to how much film you have bought? I have a feeling film is not going to last my lifetime but being 19 I really can't afford more than about 1 box at the moment....:rolleyes:
I prefer to use whatever film is available rather than stock up on a favorite. This means having to do without a few of Kodak's great LF films; Tech Pan, High Speed Infrared, and Professional Copy Film. If I were a really good photographer, how well I use any available film and camera rather than using the material that best suits my limitations would be most important.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jim Jones
Since photography, and especially digital photography, will certainly result in the discontinuing of supplies for us who also occasionally paint and draw. Therefore, I've hoarded enough pencils to last a lifetime. They require no refrigeration!
This is indeed the "golden age" for pencils. With digital taking over, why most places are giving their pencils away!;) I keep mine in a tin box---protection from termites:)
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Over the years I have lost so much film from improper storage in freezers that my attitude now is if I am not going to use it in a reasonable time just sell it, give it away or throw it away. That applies especially to film in half open boxes. Now, if the film is still stored in the hermetically sealed bags I would trust it stored frozen.
I just don't have the patience any longer to worry about the condition of the film when shooting a scene. Have had too many disappointments from bad film to spend much time in that place again.
Sandy
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
I am with Sandy. If the film is in it's original sealed packaging, I will freeze it. Boxes that have been opened are stored in a cool dry place and used as soon as possible.
--P
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
When I told Julia I wanted to sell off my 8x10 gear and buy a DSLR, I thought she'd cry. "Over my dead body", she said. "Digital is empty and lifeless", she said. She started talking about hoarding film, etc. A few nights ago, I borrowed a friend's DSLR and made some photos here in the arctic, and emailed some jpeg files to her. She immediately began talking about buying a DSLR, ASAP, and wondering if we should use our remaining 8x10 film, or sell it, too. What a woman! We'll use our remaining stock, and then pass our 8x10 gear along to someone willing to pay the premium to shoot 8x10.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
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Originally Posted by
Jay DeFehr
When I told Julia I wanted to sell off my 8x10 gear and buy a DSLR, I thought she'd cry. "Over my dead body", she said. "Digital is empty and lifeless", she said. She started talking about hoarding film, etc. A few nights ago, I borrowed a friend's DSLR and made some photos here in the arctic, and emailed some jpeg files to her. She immediately began talking about buying a DSLR, ASAP, and wondering if we should use our remaining 8x10 film, or sell it, too. What a woman! We'll use our remaining stock, and then pass our 8x10 gear along to someone willing to pay the premium to shoot 8x10.
Wow, must have been some photos! I don't want to start a debate but images on a computer screen are very different to large prints...
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Liam, those differences are largely technical. Julia likes the photos very much.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay DeFehr
Liam, those differences are largely technical. Julia likes the photos very much.
Hope that digital experience continues to serve you well.
I continue to hear of more folks that are coming back to film after a few years of shooting digital and it is music to my ears. The reasons vary. I have been told from a few friends that some of the renaissance is to differentiate themselves since they claim that their images tend to look like images from others using the same camera and lens combinations. They are also getting tired of the relatively high entry into the game and the steep depreciation in value. Some say that they miss the challenges of thinking about what they need to consider in the final print as opposed to being able to correct just about everything with software including perspective.
If it would be possible to personally thank all of the folks that decided to exit stage left with their analog gear I would do so. It allowed me to acquire all the gear I longed for at a fraction of the real value. A 30" Doctor Apo Geronon, a 305 Computar, a dozen additional new Toyo 8x10 film holders, many hundreds of sheets of film with much more on the way, etc. etc.
Fortunately there are many many folks around the world that feel the same way so sheet film will continue to be readily available for many many years.
Life is very very good and getting better every day!
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Michael,
You make some interesting, and contradictory points.
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I continue to hear of more folks that are coming back to film after a few years of shooting digital and it is music to my ears.
More than what? Certainly even you don't believe more people are switching from digital to film than the other way around.
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If it would be possible to personally thank all of the folks that decided to exit stage left with their analog gear I would do so.
So you're happy when people switch from digital to film, and you're happy when they switch from film to digital. Good for you! That's a very positive attitude. I don't care much either way, but I do hope people are happy with their decisions and enjoy their photography.
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It allowed me to acquire all the gear I longed for at a fraction of the real value.
Some would say the real value is the market value, and your valuation is subjective and meaningless, except as related to your personal negotiations. Nonetheless, your larger point is correct; the mass migration from film to digital is knocking the bottom out of the used film gear market, at an accelerating rate, as I described in another thread. By selling off my 8x10 gear now, while film is still available for it, I stand to get a much better price for it than I could get later, when film is harder to find, and more expensive. If I want to buy back in to 8x10 at some future date, I'll pay much less to replace the gear I sell now. Realistically, I'm more likely to invest that money into a system for making digital negatives than in buying back into a marginal format.
As far as the digital experience goes, I'm planning a project that can only be realized with a digital camera, and I'm very excited about it. Life is good, and it is getting better every day!
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
You're rolling the dice, Jay. You should at least hang onto your favorite 8X10 lenses
and the filmholders. You might have real regrets someday. What's likely to go up is
the price of leaf shutters, so the value of desireable lenses might continue to increase, once we're past the recessionary road bumps.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
...
What's likely to go up is
the price of leaf shutters,
...
Why that?
Andi
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Jay,
do you think the future will come on a prefixed track?
"when film is harder to find and more expensive"
Why do you want to know that for shure ?
Is it a kind of unchangible natural law?
Andi
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Yes, many people were interested in evaluating the prospects with digital and went in that direction. This decision seemed to be easier since some felt that they had little choice since film was a "goner" anyway. As it turned out digital was just another alternative to making images and not the product substitute that some predicted.
The demise of film was highly exaggerated since we continue to enjoy a very diverse offering of emulsions to continue to chose from. I do not see that changing anytime soon.
At popular places to photograph I see the glow of the dozen or more LED screens all lined up pointed at the landscape waiting for the light to come over the horizon so that they can snap off 20 + images in two minutes in auto mode. Then in no time at all they all fold up shop and the parking lot is empty. Yes, digital photography has allowed many that would never have attempted to be outdoors with a camera previously to participate in this past time. All they need is the $5,000 price of admission for their 5D with lenses and they are in "business". To what degree do they understand the nuances of photography remains questionable. I contend that the developers of these products have removed the need to have a clue. All you do is point, shoot and click with your mouse later. An absolutely perfect marketing plan utilizing planned obsolescence as your business cornerstone.
I will always be appreciative for the opportunity to be one of a few than one of the masses. It is an extension of my company business model. There is nothing quite as attractive for me as the darkcloth and the ground glass.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
I don't have a lot of expensive lenses. My Verito is probably the most valuable one, and it isn't in a leaf shutter. I have a Kodak 17.5" Ektanon in a brand new Copal 3 shutter, but I never use it; it's just way too sharp and contrasty for portraits. The lenses I use most often are Turner/ Reich triples- not terribly expensive lenses. I'll probably keep one or two lenses and my 8x10 Graflex Studio camera, because they're not worth much, as it is. I just don't see myself paying over $5/ sheet for film, except possibly for a special project. I don't enlarge 8x10, and I don't do much alt process printing, so 8x10 is kind of a luxury format, for me.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Andi,
Yes, in a way it is an unchangeable law; the law of supply and demand. As demand for film declines, production follows, until it reaches a stable level, at which it remains profitable to produce. There's another law that comes into play, as well; Moore's law, which predicts the rate of development in computing. If I wanted to take the time, I could graph the number of films discontinued on one axis, and when they were discontinued on the other. The graph would show the acceleration of the trend, which is undeniable, and there are many explanations for it, most having to do with photographers of all kinds switching from film to digital. As the trend matures, and more and more films are discontinued, an increased incentive is created for remaining film photographers to switch to digital, further accelerating the trend. There is no reasonable scenario in which the trend could be reversed, or even mediated, so the only logical question remaining is not if film will disappear as a mainstream product, but when? I think film could be available for a long time, and I expect the last manufacturers standing to be Chinese.
Michael,
The diversity of available films is changing, and has been for some time; that you can't see that, or won't, changes nothing. Your characterization of digital photography is desperate and fundamentally flawed. Many of the most successful (financially and artistically) photographers in the world shoot digital, almost all professionals, and almost all consumers. Whatever you say about digital photographers, you say about photographers.
Nearly every member of this community uses a digital camera of some kind, for something, when they could use film instead. More and more scan film and print digitally, others use digital capture to make digital negatives for contact printing. If you can't see where this is heading, you're in a delusional minority. For me, photography is not about film, and there are more like me than there are like you.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
While I agree with the guess that film will continue to slowly decline in variety and increase in price, I don't necessarily agree that LF gear will inevitably continue to decline in price. Eventually, it might not make (business) sense for many of the people making 8x10 cameras to keep making them. So, perhaps in 10 or 15 years, my Wehman will actually be worth more than it is today if I keep in like-new condition as I have so far. Look at the ridiculous prices people pay for Deardorffs. The old stock of used cameras will get traded and used and banged around, and there might not be new ones replacing them. Same goes for (at least some) LF lenses potentially. Even if the pool of users gets smaller, if the supply of good used gear gets even smaller (and new gear at reasonable prices isn't there to replace them), then prices could go up eventually from where they are now.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sanchi heuser
Why that?
Andi
I was told by someone "in the biz" that the price of shutters went up, IIRC, by $300-400. Yes, that would be huge.
Rick
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
John,
I'm afraid your analysis doesn't make much sense. If a decrease in demand for cameras makes them unprofitable to make, where will the demand for used cameras come from? If one wanted a new camera, one could always have one custom made, and the same guys building cameras now, like Wehman, would step in and build them if the market justified it. The idea that decreasing demand for cameras is going to increase the value of used ones is wishful thinking. I know I'll never pay as much for an 8x10 camera, under any circumstances, as I can sell mine for now.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SW Rick
I was told by someone "in the biz" that the price of shutters went up, IIRC, by $300-400. Yes, that would be huge.
Rick
Hi Rick,
Then I should be lucky:
All of my lenses (mostly Nikon's) have Copal shutters which seem to be very reliable,
and I try to treat them very nice:)
Only exception is one very charming old Linhof branded Super Angulon 1:8 /65mm with nearly flawless glasses and charming imaging qualities, although only for 6x9/6x12cm,
which has a tiny shutter mounted on a lensboard whith ~25mm diameter hole and somewhat my 'problem child'. Needs special care.
I hope they will serve me at least the last decades that I hope to live yet:) .
Andi
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sanking
Over the years I have lost so much film from improper storage in freezers that my attitude now is if I am not going to use it in a reasonable time just sell it, give it away or throw it away. That applies especially to film in half open boxes. Now, if the film is still stored in the hermetically sealed bags I would trust it stored frozen.
I just don't have the patience any longer to worry about the condition of the film when shooting a scene. Have had too many disappointments from bad film to spend much time in that place again.
Sandy
I posted my procedure in post #6 so no need to repeat it here.
But any time you want to discard film you're welcome to toss it my way.
I don't have any clients or any financial incentives to worry about and I enjoy shooting a few extra sheets of old or unusual film alongside the new.
Often makes a hobby photographer's efforts very interesting.
Here's one fresh out of the scanner... from a very old box of EPY.
Bob G.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Do your patriot duty and buy up as much discontinued film as you can afford and store in a freezer, so that you can keep the hoarders from buying it up!
Fight the hoarders!
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay DeFehr
John,
I'm afraid your analysis doesn't make much sense. If a decrease in demand for cameras makes them unprofitable to make, where will the demand for used cameras come from? If one wanted a new camera, one could always have one custom made, and the same guys building cameras now, like Wehman, would step in and build them if the market justified it. The idea that decreasing demand for cameras is going to increase the value of used ones is wishful thinking. I know I'll never pay as much for an 8x10 camera, under any circumstances, as I can sell mine for now.
You are assuming a perfect sync of supply and demand and a perfectly reacting marketplace of willing builders who might restart their businesses after exiting, while I am not. There are likely going to be peaks and valleys over the next decade or two, with an inefficient supply chain caused by makers existing the business. I am also assuming that certain makers' cameras will demand a premium over some inexperienced new person building a custom camera, and that it is not a simple thing to jump into the camera making business. I doubt many of us would buy a camera from a total newcomer. It just isn't as simple as freshman economics.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
John,
You might be right; only time will tell.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay DeFehr
Andi,
Yes, in a way it is an unchangeable law; the law of supply and demand.
...
...
There is no reasonable scenario in which the trend could be reversed, or even mediated, so the only logical question remaining is not if film will disappear as a mainstream product, but when? I think film could be available for a long time, and I expect the last manufacturers standing to be Chinese.
...
...
Hey Jay,
maybe it's changebable by us as we are working for it?
I could very well imaging a scenario when more young people appear which wants to
have excellent image quality, but are unwilling and of course unable to
buy expensive digital high end stuff and don't want the burden of a bank's credit.
I see these youngsters more and more coming to the german speaking LF forum
asking for help.
Some weeks ago a fellow photographer and I decided to make periodically local meetings and costfree workshops especially for LF beginners and students in design or
art photography. first one will be on february the 12th.
BTW, everybody crossing the region
of Düsseldorf at that time can join and have a cup of coffee or a local
fresh brewed beer:rolleyes: please feel invited.
Will be our contribution for the encouragement of film.
Jay, I understand your realistic approach very well, and obviously there are
certain principles, but for me it's also a physical fact that the future is unwritten,
it's not happened yet physically...
Andi
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay DeFehr
John,
I'm afraid your analysis doesn't make much sense. If a decrease in demand for cameras makes them unprofitable to make, where will the demand for used cameras come from? If one wanted a new camera, one could always have one custom made, and the same guys building cameras now, like Wehman, would step in and build them if the market justified it. The idea that decreasing demand for cameras is going to increase the value of used ones is wishful thinking. I know I'll never pay as much for an 8x10 camera, under any circumstances, as I can sell mine for now.
There are camera makers that are continuing to make and sell new cameras. Your assumption that they are unprofitable to make is just not the case. The demand for cameras (new and used) will come from emerging markets such as China, India, South Korea and elsewhere around the world. Canham continues to be very busy as do other makers that have a sounds business model and exemplary customer service and since I have four of them I know that they are not exactly giving them away.
Trying to time a market assuming that you know what the future value will be is simply wishful thinking. Even five years ago the general consensus was that film would have already been dead and buried. I could care less what the forward market for cameras is because it is immaterial to my desire to participate in using my wide range of equipment for my enjoyment.
If you sell all of your camera equipment won't you miss 510 pyro? Have you proper succession planning in place?
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Andi,
I'm not suggesting there aren't people interested in film photography, or even that there are new photographers choosing film, but that the larger picture shows unequivocally the trend is definitively one sided with huge numbers of people giving up film for digital. If new film users even remotely approached the number of former film users, we wouldn't see films being discontinued at an accelerating rate. The anecdotes just don't match the statistics. This is a sea change, and there's nothing that can be done to reverse it. Consumers use cheap digital cameras that perform more than well enough for their needs, which are increasingly web-based and not print-based. Professional photographers have all but made the transition to digital. More and more feature films are shot digitally, and more and more theaters are converting to digital projection. Emerging markets like China and India are embracing the digital age. A 10mp digital camera is a lot less expensive to use, and a lot more practical for these markets than a film camera, since there are few film processing centers, and the use of film would require the addition of scanning for the most popular applications. So, in many important ways the future is happening now. To predict the tide will turn in favor of film is a bold prediction, indeed.
Michael,
It wasn't my assumption that making cameras would become unprofitable, it was John's. Neither of us suggested it is unprofitable now. I mentioned the role of China in film production, but if you believe the cameras the emerging markets will demand will be film cameras, you're out of touch with the reality of those markets. Check the sales figures if you doubt me. Timing the market is not difficult when the trend is as well established as this one. If you think I'm wrong, you could buy my gear and resell it at a profit when prices go up.
I'm not thinking of selling all my cameras, just one of my 8x10s, and some 8x10 lenses, and other accessories. That leaves 5x7, several 4x5 outfits, 3x4, several MF outfits and several 35mm outfits. I'll hold on to each format until film becomes prohibitively expensive or unavailable. I'm not sure what you mean by "succession planning". 510-Pyro is no longer my primary developer, but I do use it when appropriate; here in Alaska, for instance.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Hi Jay,
OK, you're right with the big mass trend.
But I strongly believe there will be a sufficient number of film users left
on a more or less constant level, even when the masses turn away.
That will make film production still interessting.
Film will keep it's inherent magic and attraction to people,
and then we'll be there to show them the craft and encourage to keep on.
That's what we try with our meetings and costfree workshops here in Düsseldorf.
Will be more a mutual learning and sharing of experiences, cause
my fellow and I are not
so advanced to act like a teacher or something.
We all have to do something to keep the thing running,
don't we?
Most of success with your projects in 2011.
Andi
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay DeFehr
Some would say the real value is the market value, and your valuation is subjective and meaningless, except as related to your personal negotiations. Nonetheless, your larger point is correct; the mass migration from film to digital is knocking the bottom out of the used film gear market, at an accelerating rate, as I described in another thread. By selling off my 8x10 gear now, while film is still available for it, I stand to get a much better price for it than I could get later, when film is harder to find, and more expensive. If I want to buy back in to 8x10 at some future date, I'll pay much less to replace the gear I sell now. Realistically, I'm more likely to invest that money into a system for making digital negatives than in buying back into a marginal format.
I would normally agree but have you seen the price of polaroid film and polaroid cameras such as the sx-70....
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sanchi heuser
Hi Jay,
Film will keep it's inherent magic and attraction to people,
and then we'll be there to show them the craft and encourage to keep on.
That's what we try with our meetings and costfree workshops here in Düsseldorf.
Will be more a mutual learning and sharing of experiences, cause
my fellow and I are not
so advanced to act like a teacher or something.
Andi
I will be doing the same thing here in the US. There are any number of places where people want to hear about the opportunities available again with film.
In any event this is getting to be old news. I could care less about the "masses" and what they do. I am into solutions, not throwing the cards down along with people like Jay with such complacency. I would rather spend my time kicking a ULF film deal into the done column which is the next priority. Those that no longer feel the need to use film will see the rest of us 5 and 10 years from now with that much more experience and joy from our proactive actions. I am reminded of the age old adage that may even have a religions origination -
"It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness"
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
A real estate developer once told me "If you think you'd like to live there, chances are good other people will want to live there too." That philosophy applies to hobbies as well and I think traditional photography is a good example.
If there is a market, there will be suppliers.
The situation is beginning to remind me of Husserl and the phenomonolgy movement in that the very act of taking and printing images has value and the effort put forth has a definate bearing on the phenomenon. Photography with sheet film,fishing with a fly rod, navigating with an E6B slide rule, riding a horse, fencing with swords, growing your own tomatos, or playing a musical instrument have all been surpassed in terms of efficiency but this efficiency also isolates, to some (great) degree, the man from the act
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Andi,
Your workshops sound great. I do the same kind of thing in Idaho, teaching kids how to build pinhole cameras and contact print their paper or film negatives. It's a lot of fun, and I meet great people. I've had more than a few parents join the group, and they have as much fun as the kids do. I would love to attend your meetings if I was in your city.
Quote:
We all have to do something to keep the thing running,
don't we?
I think we have differing ideas regarding what the thing is. For me, photography is about making images, by whatever process. I use film for lots of reasons, but mostly because it's fun, and I enjoy sharing that fun, especially with kids. I think every one of my kids' friends has had some kind of photography lesson at my house. Some use film, others digital, but that's not the point. The point is they develop an appreciation for the expressive potential of a photo, and feel free to see in a new way.
Liam,
I think the price spike for SX-70 cameras correlates to the introduction of the instant film by Harmann. I actually have an SX-70; I should probably sell that too!
Michael,
Your "solution" to your problem, which consists of persuading people to buy into group special orders, is not exactly innovative as much as it's one possible response to changes in the marketplace. Your evangelical zeal and characterization of anyone who doesn't share it as complacent illustrates your egoism. My decision to get out of the 8x10 format is a personal one, and no one asked you to follow my example. Why do you see every circumstance in absolute terms, as a zero sum game?
Quote:
Those that no longer feel the need to use film will see the rest of us 5 and 10 years from now with that much more experience and joy from our proactive actions.
Why do you set this up as an antagonism? Why would I care about your experience or enjoyment of using film? And why do you insist on suggesting I'm no longer using film when I've repeatedly stated I will continue to use film in other formats, for as long as it's available and affordable? Lots of people get out of various formats for all kinds of reasons. Are you so offended because I'm (mostly) getting out of 8x10 due to the price and availability of film, or because I plan to use the proceeds to buy a DSLR? Or, is it simply a matter of someone making a different choice than you've made that irritates you?
If, for reasons of your own, you want to pay a premium for special order film, and pay to store it on a long term basis, that's your prerogative. I don't see anything particularly noble or admirable in it, and I don't think it will have any effect on the market; it's just a personal choice you've made. For me, there's nothing exclusive to the 8x10 format that warrants that kind of sacrifice. You might feel your being "proactive", but you're just postponing the inevitable and ignoring the opportunities. A truly adaptive strategy would be to learn to make digital negatives that print as well as film negatives, like Sandy and others are doing. You might say it's useless, or that digital negatives will never equal a film negative, but that's just defeatism and complacency, and I have more respect for the people actually making the commitment to address the issues and solve the problems than those who are determined to go down with the ship, which doesn't really take much courage at all.
Change only favours minds that are diligently looking and preparing for discovery.
Louie Pasteur
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Jay,
We do what we must do. I wish you good fortune in your quest to improve digital photography. I am captivated by traditional 8x10 photography. I think the responses you're seeing are born of concern, not animosity. The enjoyment you derived from 8x10 has changed and we need to respect that(even though we can't wrap our minds around it---like James Taylor dumping Carly Simon, something deep inside of me wants to shout "Brother James, noooooo!") Just as you see us luddites stressed out about which emulsions are vanishing from the face of the planet---so much so that it saps our resources to fill and maintain multiple freezers full of 10 sheet boxes of TMY, agonizing over impending threats of thawing power outages(you know it's going to happen---better get an emergency generator) to the point where we've become obsessive, cutting ourselves off from our glass coating pioneering ancestors and the Edward Westons who cavalier shot whatever was affordable and available in order to get it done.
Your points are well taken. We are concerned for each other's contributions to the art because we value those contributions and friendships which have formed over time.
But we all got to do what we've got to do.
It helps not getting too uptight over things.
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Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film
Thanks John.
My enjoyment of 8x10 hasn't changed. 8x10 was never my primary format; just one of many. And I'm not giving up 8x10 completely; just selling off the most valuable bits of kit. I still have at least a year's supply of film, or more, at the rate I shoot 8x10. I'm just being pragmatic. I need a DSLR for a project I'm planning, and I don't need my Deardorff. I'm not on any quest to improve digital photography, I'm just utilizing its unique properties. Judging by my very limited digital experience, I think digital photography will be as much fun as film photography, and that's a happy surprise.
One of the things I like about Husserl was his willingness to revise his philosophy.