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New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
It is not usual to discover a Pro Color Carbon Printing Service business based in my country... nor it isn't a Pro BW carbonist...
Work looks based in digital negatives, but I got impressed by the quality of the carbon jobs made by him.
Just I liked to point that something is moving faster than it was suposed...
Let's see this guy: Calvin Grier, now offering (announced) color carbon service
http://thewetprint.com/en/color-carbon-transfer-prints/
http://thewetprint.com/en/clients/
These are Calvin's videos... https://www.youtube.com/user/calving...able_polymer=1
He looks of english origin but based in Lliria, (Valencia), SPAIN http://thewetprint.com/en/contact/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voKGFucxDro
http://thewetprint.com/wp-content/up...Facebook-1.jpg
http://thewetprint.com/wp-content/up.../instagram.jpg
Sometimes we have bad news like Acros LF discontinuation... but then something hapens that overruns it... amazing news... a young photographer/printer making a bet for HQ jobs in carbon, on an "small" enlarger from Rusia !!!
http://www.largeformatphotography.in...9&d=1517853444
Some images are 1000 words worth...
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
John Bentley and Todd Gangler have been offering Colour Carbon Prints for over 20 years now, I am very please to see this new worker pushing boundaries as well.
For me I went down the Carbon Route, but I fell in love with Gum Dichromate and Palladium.. different strokes for different folks.
Sandy King also makes tri colour carbons and monochrome carbons.
Almost all the above workers will offer one on one workshops, ... I am only offering intro level into gum over palladium, as I prefer to work with artists on commission jobs which is much more satisfying for me .. But I do love teaching every once and awhile.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Bob, carbon isn't a novelty :) , of course...
But what is surprising to me is that young photographers are engaging in locations with low LF/traditional activity
My perception is that there is much more LF activity in California alone than in the whole EU, so those mentioned cases perhaps are suggesting that internet makes a divulgation of LF/traditional photography that may rescue LF from a decline. IMHO there is an impressive LF subculture that can be valued by new generations of photographers, and this may modify the LF fate, perhaps in the future it will be an imaging subculture, but with hardcore practitioners, just guessing...
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pere Casals
Bob, carbon isn't a novelty :) , of course...
...
Pere,
Calvin Grier is an American who has been living in Spain for a number of years, very fluent in Spanish. Not sure what got him interested in carbon printing but he has spent a lot of time learning to master the process, including both monochrome and color, and offers printmaking services, and also workshops. There are very few persons in the world (you can count them on one hand) with the expertise to teach color carbon printing so Calvin appears to have carved out a fairly unique niche. Calvin offered a fairly long description of his learning process with color carbon in a recent thread on the carbon forum on groups.io. Very interesting work flow, as you can read for yourself.
https://groups.io/g/carbon/topic/cmy...20,2,0,9644583
Nearly all commercial color carbon work today is done with digital negatives made with imagesetter output devices rather than continuous tone film or inkjet separations. This is primarily due to the fact that exact exposure is much easier with dot type negatives, and also to the unique nature of carbon printing which makes retention of the highest highlights impossible with continuous tone negatives.
Sandy
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Sandy, this is a really interesting thread... thanks for pointing it.
I've also reviewed John Bentley and Tod Gangler.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Pere
It does not surprise me whatsoever that a young photographer/artist has learned this wonderful process and is offering it as a service... Today more than ever there is more opportunity with the blending of digital negatives and historic processes to allow someone to learn , master and produce for others. This is exciting, as well as those folks in Russia making the 20 x24 Cameras, or Gary Yaum in Alberta constructing that monster Wet Plate Cameral. You only have to look to David Hymans in Salt Lake City to see this small business plan in action.
Also to be mentioned in this particular process , Carbon, we are lucky to have Sandy King around , he has been a mentor, educator, friend of mine for over 20 years and not once did he ever hold back any information, he has always been a resource for me and many others. Without some of the people today who have made prints for the better part of their life, trading openly information we would not see this resurgence.
I can thank Ian Leake, Ian Grant, Sam Wang, Bill Schwab, Christina Anderson and many many others who have openly embraced conversation and methods and ideas.
For example a young woman from Montreal took a course with Sandy 6 years ago or so at my facility and today she is making art shows with Carbon, I make silver negatives for her and she goes on her way and makes carbon transfer prints.. We are seeing a alternative show of over 400 images all by emerging and existing artists. http://lonsdalegallery.com/upcoming-...re-exhibition/
Carissa(my production manager who is quite young) and I are working with Photrio to offer Symposiums of various lengths, compositions over the next year, slated are Toronto , San Francisco, Montreal and a small town in South West France. These Symposiums are dedicated to do educate and inform people at a very direct interaction of teacher and student.
I truly believe we have gone back in time to 1973 when I first started printing , the excitement and possibilities are endless right now.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Bob, I belive the same
...IMHO while digital has enterily solved practical photography it happens that hand crafting of images triggers an special involvement of the artist in the image. Perhaps this is something that is being rediscovered.
Also now there is a lot of divulgation in internet, ...and also hybrid process allows for new ways.
Really that exhibition http://lonsdalegallery.com/upcoming-...re-exhibition/ looks powerful !!!
I feel happy when I see that this kind of works are arising !
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
There used to be a number of color carbon or carbro printers here in the Bay Area, including a few individuals who temporarily devised commercial tweaks - one of them capable of large prints, but not having the beauty of little handmade ones. It takes a lot of money to go commercial, and so far has proven a great risk. People like Todd Gangler are actually hand printers. The only true commercial operation which has survived is the idiosyncratic old Fresson direct carbon screen process (vs carbon transfer). A real breakthrough requires a new class of nano process pigments - not here yet.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
....
People like Todd Gangler are actually hand printers. The only true commercial operation which has survived is the idiosyncratic old Fresson direct carbon screen process (vs carbon transfer).
....
Drew,
What is your definition of commercial? Tod Gangler operates a facility (http://www.colorcarbonprint.com) that offers high end custom printing services in both inkjet and carbon transfer? How is this fundamentally different from the Fresson commercial operation, which also involves hand coated materials and a custom service?
Bob,
I am aware of John Bentley's personal work with color carbon printing, in fact met him at your place many years ago when you were at Digital Elevator. John's work has great artistic interest, in my opinion, but I did not know he also offered printing services? Did I misunderstand your comment?
Sandy
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Hi Sandy. Commercial in the sense of printing for other people is one thing. But what I was implying was setting up an industrial-scale operation involving a significant investment in volume pigment coatings, patents, etc - something almost impossible to break even with in competition with inkjet technology. You might think I'm nuts, but having seen absolutely wonderful tricolor carbon prints in the past printed from basic in-camera film separations, it's the route I'm tempted to experiment with, though I'll probably run a few dye transfer prints first, which can be enlarged. I've pretty much pinned down consistent separations. Least of my worries at this point. But if I ever get to something resembling carbons, it will be a new tweak.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Sandy
John has taken on students for a fee and working with their images has made prints , so in effect he has made money working for others.
I continually work in alt process for others , I must say it is hugely gratifying when everything goes well, and quite frustrating when the client is expecting C print or Inkjet clarity. I am trying to actively weed out
the people who have unrealistic expectations, as they are really a drain on my time and soul.
I am spending more time these days working in gum over palladium, and tri colour gum for myself and clients ,frankly I feel this is where my love of printing is being formed all over again. Its funny how this thing called Photography can keep us happy for a 1/2 century or more.
I have recently made a whole series of silver negatives, and then lith prints and as well traditional silver contacts from these films, I really like this direction as well. I am hoping to place the Lambda in a young persons hands to maximize the potential of this machine.
I am making all my clients spend time in the darkroom/dim room with me now as I am hoping they willrent out my space and facilities to make their complete shows from concept to crated work. I have the gear and actually like the bond between most of my clients, so as I get older in the tooth , I can sort of manage them, and continue with my own work.
I have tried to rationalize how I am going to proceed in the future and this type of Artist in Residence concept really works well for me.
I finally have about 40% of my personal portfolios in the can and I am excited to know some galleries are interested in my personal work. I would love to be able to make prints and sell them as a viable business plan moving forward.
say hi to Sam and I really hope Laura, Barney and Lucy get to spend some time with you again. You know Laura has a soft spot for you as do all the staff up here so lets see if we can get together.
Bob
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
I tried responding to your bulb question on the other thread, Bob. At one time there was a lot of UV photo printing going on around here, some of it quite large, though rarely with the aesthetic excellence of Sandy's work, which to my memory seems to have been limited to around 16x20 back then (?). A most serious players were mass producing their own platinotype paper in 4 ft wide rolls, moved on to more esoteric processes, and might finally retire now that their primary artist client has also hit the A list on scandal/backlash charts. The lot under the building will go for easily 50 million anyway, due to location. I haven't talked to them since I retired. But some time back they went from UV burners to programming industrial lasers, and had the capacity to put photographic images on slabs of granite over 20 ft long. Don't know where all their pre-press gear will end up. But the key proprietor is nearly 80, and became more interested in teaching youth aspects of alt craft. He got spooked about what certain sensitizers were doing to his health when he dropped out of Pt/Pd.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Looks like they're still there, but on a 50% workshop & teaching basis now. Gave up the lithography end of the business, which did incredibly high quality work. If you come to the SF area, we can visit them etc. In the meantime, check em out on the web: Magnolia Editions.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
Looks like they're still there, but on a 50% workshop & teaching basis now. Gave up the lithography end of the business, which did incredibly high quality work. If you come to the SF area, we can visit them etc. In the meantime, check em out on the web: Magnolia Editions.
thanks Drew I will look into this.. it does look like they are using inkjet printer and laying down what they call pigment ... what is the difference between this and Piezo or the new Epson Inks.
The pigments I use for Tri Colour Gum are right out of the tube and are very thick and heavy, Are they talking the same language...??
There is a digital printer in Japan that lays down one pass Pt Pd directly from digital files on a flat bed .. I find this very unique and trend setting. They are connected somehow to Salto in Belgium.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
There are many commercial Print Making Shops Worldwide claiming their product is superior., In fact I would be one of them, but for me its difficult to understand the techno babble some of them are spewing, and get to the real Nut of the issue.
Are the materials (Pigment) able to stay suspended on the paper and have a fighting chance to last as long as traditional pigmented paintings of the past and some of the extremely old books.
I am suspect of any current high end Manufactured in mass outfit making those claims... I Remember first starting colour printing on Kodak and Ciba papers and there were thousands of ads telling me that these materials were lasting memorys.. All to be proven to be Bullshit. For me I own a high end printer (Canon IPF 9400) and though I love its incredible dexterity , I have a hard time thinking the mixed pigment ratio to gum and Amonium Dichromate I mix for my prints downstairs could every get inserted into cartridges and pushed through the nozzel technology.
Even some of these testing sites are suspect with their claims of testing as they accept product form Labs who use questionable Process control to make their prints. I am speaking specifically of a field I specialize in where digital fibre prints have been submitted by some of my competitors who use roller transport machines to process, and IMHO they are not aware of the proper Ilford Sequence. I think I am the only lab worldwide that actually uses huge trays set up with fresh chems to do this process exactly how I would do enlarger prints.. It does not surprise me to find that the prints these Labs send in for testing fail miserably .. How could they Pass.
My point here , claims abound about permanence issues but its really hard to find real facts... I stopped my travels down Carbon Transfer for the simple reality of frilling of 100year old Carbon Prints. It really difficult to separate BULLSHIT from FACT.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Inkjet is just one of many processes they work with. They basically invent significant new methods of photo repro, and have done it repeatedly, often for a single lucrative fee. They love to innovate, and was simply pointing out a business model that you might get a few ideas from. Carbon per se is not one of their offerings. I have been in true industrial $$$$ carbon labs, where you can start smelling bankruptcy just like a toaster on too long. But they do work in processes way more permanent than monochrome carbon, like granite relief printing. I know that you might be a little grouchy at the moment about hockey scores; but can understand why it's a national day of mourning in Canada, but I'd never bring up something like that on a printing thread unless someone here wanted a gum print of the scoreboard.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
... spend a little more time with that site, Bob. They don't print for ordinary people. We're talking about individual items frequently selling for over a million dollars. Installations running tens of millions. They might net only 4% of that - yet that's still an impressive income. This is no like any "lab" you've ever seen - more like Japanese craft guilds that pass secrets generation to generation, but with a lot of secret hybrid capability too. You have ideas? They might have thought them through long before. There are some distinct local restrictions to commercial use of dichromates. That's a different story.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Drew,
That Magnolia Editions is impressive.
Anyway IMHO it falls a bit apart from what is common in a print service, I feel they are unique, this is making art from severe technical innovation.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bob carnie
There are many commercial Print Making Shops Worldwide claiming their product is superior., In fact I would be one of them, but for me its difficult to understand the techno babble some of them are spewing, and get to the real Nut of the issue.
What are there are sound pitfalls :) for example using papers with OBAs :) and latter having to say to all following customers that only Hahnemühle is to be used :)
At the end, you may know, what it's important today it's the man who is printing, t0o many adjust the image in photoshop in the way they like it, but they don't realize how it has to look in the monitor to be optimal in the print.
IHMO I cannot explain to you what the thing is about...
But perhaps we have a segmented market, in the low end marked if the machine prints every digital pixel level to the mapped density on paper then the printer has no responsibility in the customer's decissions.
...but some customers want the printer to adjust the digital image to be nice in the print, real proofs are made... this is another level, and who pays for that he obtains that kind of service...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bob carnie
Are the materials (Pigment) able to stay suspended on the paper and have a fighting chance to last as long as traditional pigmented paintings of the past and some of the extremely old books....
Well, the emotional value of digitally printed things is different, we can print it again if the thing becomes yellow in the future, and we have the same again.
For this reason handcrafted perdurable prints are a different market, way smaller... but I feel that there is an increasing interest in that...
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
... spend a little more time with that site, Bob. They don't print for ordinary people. We're talking about individual items frequently selling for over a million dollars. Installations running tens of millions. They might net only 4% of that - yet that's still an impressive income. This is no like any "lab" you've ever seen - more like Japanese craft guilds that pass secrets generation to generation, but with a lot of secret hybrid capability too. You have ideas? They might have thought them through long before. There are some distinct local restrictions to commercial use of dichromates. That's a different story.
Drew... they are impressive indeed....{{ This is no like any "lab" you've ever seen}} but you may not really have a handle on what a photo lab really is.. These people are using mixed media in a very interesting way, but I am reminded of BGM Imaging in the 80's where I worked as well as Scarborough Colour Labs where at BGM there were over 250 people working 7 days a week two to three shifts... I worked in this place in the repro dept making montages day in day out... I have seen big labs and big operations.... but frankly I am more impressed with Todd Gangler's prints for Sarah Moon... he is a one man operation making exquisite work.
I am most concerned with photographic services that start with an image and ends with a wet permanent print.
Carissa is in San Fran in a week with my friend Matthew who is showing at Photo Central.. She is there to specifically carve out a Connection with Bay Area Gallery's, Artist Groups and individual photographers. if she is successful we intend to have the third Symposium in your area early 2019... I would love to visit Magnolia..
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
I'll try to make the connection, Bob. We had giant full-service labs here, only 10% of which was known to ordinary clients. One is still there the size of a football field. When the owner wanted to retire and wanted to give me all the equipment, but I neither the space nor interest for it, and took only one choice Durst enlarger. He's probably not a billionaire but pretty darn close. Never took a day of vacation in his life but has massive real estate holdings both commercial, residential, resorts, restaurants etc. Made a science out of work, and could run his real estate empire at the same time as a gourmet kitchen in his studio taking some of the most artsy food photography I've ever seen, then printing 60 inch wide immaculately detailed Cibas with it - and yes, ruining his lungs by having hundred of gallons of Ciba bleach in daily use. Not worth it.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
But there were also people locally who did exquisite hand-printed color carbons. They barely ate and paid their rent. At one point, someone at Kodak gave one of these persons a pile of 14x17 film out of sheer pity. It was the largest size tray he could carry thru the bathroom door with wet carbon tissue to wash off in the tub. Never made money with it. The art market doesn't usually care about how much work was put into something. You do it cause you want to.I worked with all kinds of incredible artists before I retired. A retro 50s red Formica table would sell for 75k, while an exquisitely carved mahogany table was considered just a hobby. Some of the craziest work I saw was ion deposition holographic color images on 3d "oragami" sculptures. These did sell high, and I supplied some of the necessary equip, tooling: try Rae Douglas, Light Waves, maybe. I should double check the link.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Lightest. Sorry. I don't know if any of the photographic images appear on those several sites, but the color method is analogous and comparatively permanent, just like dichroic filter coatings similarly made.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
It's Lightrays. I see he still has one cubistic portrait sculpture posted, bearing a photographic imprint. That's not pigment or dye, but permanent iridescent vac ion-deposition coating! An utterly different path to color. Still not at the stage of true process colors, but several big companies are trying. If it happens, you'll have nano-pigments far smaller than anything in inkjet and as permanent as the minerals seen on Mars on in Death Valley on Artist's Drive. That's why it's important to poke around and see what's being done by innovative people.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
I agree with you in that the art market does not really care how much time or effort a person put into it. So if a person is making color carbon prints and hoping to live from print sales, good luck because making it to the top of the art market is probably going to be a long,hard ride . And that is generally true for all types of photography, though some individuals I know do have a niche market in print sales due in part to a particular process or work flow. But offering specialized printing services and workshops is an entirely different proposition, the key here would seem to be promotion, along with skill, and just being in the right place at the right time.
As for color carbon, making hand made color prints today is a very different proposition than in the past because the basic materials are no longer produced, so one either has to make them, or pay to have them made.
Sandy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
But there were also people locally who did exquisite hand-printed color carbons. They barely ate and paid their rent. At one point, someone at Kodak gave one of these persons a pile of 14x17 film out of sheer pity. It was the largest size tray he could carry thru the bathroom door with wet carbon tissue to wash off in the tub. Never made money with it. The art market doesn't usually care about how much work was put into something. You do it cause you want to. .......
...
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sanking
But offering specialized printing services and workshops is an entirely different proposition, the key here would seem to be promotion, along with skill, and just being in the right place at the right time.
I was in contact with Calvin Grier recently and it looks that his business is going forward, with a lot of activity. In his case we can speak about promotion and skill, but not about being in the right place :), in Spain there is very low activity in all that, but fortunately his global promotion is well done and delivering results.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Why not near Valencia? Lots of potential customers live in the EU.
Who would have thought that someone in Australia could have developed such an active business in offering workshops and materials for hand made photographic printing processes? But that is what Ellie Young has done with Goldstreet Studios in southeastern Australia (http://www.goldstreetstudios.com.au), and now she has established a brand for her studio in several locations in China.
Bob Carnie does have a good location in Toronto for his type of printing services, but great location often comes with high rent.
Sandy
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Sandy, you are right, present globalization helps to stablish a business away from markets. And well, lower cost and good quality manpower (like a brand China) may be an opportunity for some expansion in labour intensive works...
Perhaps for the workshop share of the business (it may be an important share) being in the suitable area is more important, as traveling far can be discouraging, in that way being near of a really big city with some known push in traditional process should help.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
China can be a nightmare to deal with. Ask anyone who has tried - and I've known a LOT of em. Ironically, I've also ran into quite a few well-off Chinese tourists who have an interest in large format photography. One of them recently pointed at something sticking out of my packs and expressed the only two words we had in common : "Sinar?", "Norma?"
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
China can be a nightmare to deal with. Ask anyone who has tried - and I've known a LOT of em. Ironically, I've also ran into quite a few well-off Chinese tourists who have an interest in large format photography. One of them recently pointed at something sticking out of my packs and expressed the only two words we had in common : "Sinar?", "Norma?"
yes, but if you have an iphone... it has been manufactured there... and xiaomi may be better :)
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Maybe in a tiny field like this you might be lucky to meet someone from China with similar cottage-industry interests. But most small businessmen I know ended up taking over two dozen trips attempting to find niche contientious mfg. With big outfits it's an entirely different game - low bidder and a predictable tier-based bribe structure both ways. But I doubt we'll be facing competition from Walmart etc for carbon prints. The logistics can be otherwise daunting. But "cheap labor" isn't as cheap as it used to be, and you might not like the probability of an almost non-existent regulatory system exposing workers to nasty chromium compounds.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
I think Drew and Pere should visit and form a printing company... holy moly what a combination
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
I happen to have a lot of serious connections with China, Bob - which is exactly why I wouldn't want to do business there! The business school of the University of Beijing is actually run as an adjunct of Calif. State University Hayward, very close to your gig Tonite, by a close friend of ours. My wife studied at Beijing University a year, as part of her own UCB program - the first of, alas, three degrees. There was also a PBS documentary a couple months ago featuring my first agent, who specialized in bringing Chinese modernist painters to US museums, but in these latter years has been studying traditional Chinese architectural techniques.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bob carnie
I think Drew and Pere should visit and form a printing company... holy moly what a combination
:)
Bob, speaking on me, I think I woudn't earn a living, I'm a terribly bad printer, just a learner, but a really bad one wasting bare RC paper... if you hired me you would be closing in two weeks...
If one day you want to close, you just can hire me to destroy your reputation :)
Also I woudn't like to destroy Drew's life !!!
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
C'mon, Pere. I almost destroyed Bob's life just making forum comments. There's no need to go to Canada to do it!
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Well, while I'm a learner/newcomer to LF, I've been reading a lot of past discussions where you both debate interesting issues that are not easy to find around, arising really interesting points of view. This is a good source !!!
And, Drew, I'm confident that Bob has you in high esteem. Always complaining, but thats's rethoric :)
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
I like you both, I just want to get out of the conversations before the horse is 10 posts dead....
I like the fact that Drew has a handle on contrast masking which is a difficult subject... but most importantly I love Drew because he is Big foots best buddy.
Pere you have a healthy knowledge on some of the more technical sides of what we do and I read some but not all of your posts... read first line.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Well, Bob, I still have my teeth, so haven't had to gum anything yet. But hopefully you'll send some samples of that our way too one day. There was a nice turnout, mostly members of Photo Central I suspect. But was a little surprised that it seemed like 50% a sales presentation for stitching cameras. That whole field stuns me, why anyone would go to all that effort to simulate what can be done with a single shutter click on LF film; but if that's what they enjoy, more power to em. The prints were clean n crisp, as evidence of your lab skills. I don't know if Bigfoot would hold still long enough for a stitched portrait session, but he's due to teach a carbon workshop there in a month or so. Carissa can verify that I actually exist and bear no personal resemblance to Bigfoot.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
I find the stitching and focus stacking capabilities of Phase Cameras to be un paralleled. Not sure if you saw the Indian Rd series form Windsor in his presentation, but we are going to make a 60 inch by 150 inch print which IMHO does indeed match 8 x10 capabilities.. Thanks for coming out and proving once and for all that you are a real person.. Carissa did meet you which is great.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Yes, I looked at em all, n understand the technical pros and cons per depth of field mgt etc. But didn't see anything that hasn't been done even sharper with even optimized 4x5 n enlarging. 5x7 would give the longer rectangle. The hues were a tad oversaturated for my taste, but that's the kind of thing best decided by the photographer-client, since it's his work. I've been around the block a few times, and frankly, might find myself in a contact printing mood soon.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
If stitching used then a Phase is not necessary, any consumer DSLR can deliver a gigapixel image in that way...
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Phase One is quite common in commercial stdio settings, esp w repurposed Sinar P film cameras. But I should keep my mouth shut about stitching, cause going out making sequential sheet film color seps in the field is analogous. And I'm calibrated to do that once I stumble on something suited to a particular pigment set. The problem of long-term bonding in layered carbons is due not only to the inevitable exp/contraction stresses w dissimilar pretty paper, but due to the way certain mineral ingredients or contaminants are charged and affect the cross-linking of gelatin. There's plenty of research about gelatin cross-linking in the medical field, but none about gum arabic, and casein is another story too. Even strongly mechanically-bonded layers like quad Fresson are showing fine cracks. But I don't want to cry wolf without doing my own tests first.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
Phase One is quite common in commercial stdio settings, esp w repurposed Sinar P film cameras. But I should keep my mouth shut about stitching, cause going out making sequential sheet film color seps in the field is analogous. And I'm calibrated to do that once I stumble on something suited to a particular pigment set. The problem of long-term bonding in layered carbons is due not only to the inevitable exp/contraction stresses w dissimilar pretty paper, but due to the way certain mineral ingredients or contaminants are charged and affect the cross-linking of gelatin. There's plenty of research about gelatin cross-linking in the medical field, but none about gum arabic, and casein is another story too. Even strongly mechanically-bonded layers like quad Fresson are showing fine cracks. But I don't want to cry wolf without doing my own tests first.
I wish I understood what you just said there...
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Just another important parameter for zeroing in on an ideal process pigment set, which art stores can't help you with.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
If different layers of a pigmented sandwich develop over time different degree of brittleness vs plasticity, of course cracks, blisters, and maybe even delamination are inevitable. Dissimilar electrical properties in the respective color pigments can lead to this. I'm oversimplifying the problem, but hinting why even very permanent pigments have issues - and esp natural oxides, chromium greens (common in older pigment prints), cadmium colorants, etc. Anything metal-family.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
You harden gelatin to begin with using a chromium salt and UV energy. Analogously, certain pigments or contaminants are capable of cross-linking gelatin and making it brittle at a much slower rate. Again, not an ideal explanation, but good enough perhaps. What this means is that truly permanent color prints are probably impossible, though it is probably realistic to achieve results much more permanent than inkjet etc. But this is not something accelerated-aging tests are likely to predict well, and are probably poorly studied in photo R&D, which is mainly concerned with organic dyes. Even color Carbro really had pre-press ad use as it's priority.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
For color carbon, I'm exploring classic pigments, here in page 8 there is a list, we may want AA or A permanency grade, and we may want transparency for the outer layers, the innermost can be opaque...
For the brittleness probles, I speculate, perhaps it can be evaluated by hardening the gelatin to the maximum possible in a post treatment, this is sensitizing+UV burning again, or using Formaldehyde as a hardener, or perhaps this would make the gelatin layers stable, as all the gelatin transformations would be made in the finishings of the process.
Another factor is gelatin bloom grade, it can be as low as 30, perhaps the inner layer can 300 and the outer layer can be 30, to make outer layer elastic...
Perhaps another way would be using thinner layers...
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
Drew you bring up some very interesting points... When I look at my prints multiple layers I see how each layer lends with each other, they do NOT appear to be layered like a tissue on top of each other.. This consideration was brought to my attention by Mark Osterman regarding some vintage Carbon Transfer Prints.
I am quite surprised you brought this up as I am sure this is not normal discussion you and Bigfoot have around the campfire... I look forward to discussing this further with you.. I am impressed.
Bob
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
I would love to be able to know that the gum layers are actually bonding with each other and not creating a Layer as you point out... The properties of Gum Arabic are the issue me thinks as the pigment IMO are inert ground stone.
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Re: New Color Carbon Printing Service business... A new trend ?
This whole suite of issues has never, to my knowledge, been adequately addressed in photograhic literature per se. Certain "classic " pigments have not only theoretical but observable issues over time in relation to gelatin. That why other categories of pigments must be looked at. Classic pigments are also way behind the curve of actual current R&D in other applications (and I certainly don't mean inkjet!). But "ground stone" is not the answer either. It's generally got diaelectric properties, and I don't have any idea if gum arabic is analogous to gelatin in this respect. But truly permanent ground stone isn't anything you could afford. I know where tiny samples can be obtained at higher cost per ounce than gold. But printers need something industrially available at reasonable cost and absolute batch to batch pure consistency, at least in terms of process colors. Stay tuned (maybe for quite awhile if my tile man gets available and I'm buried under remodeling).