For-Sale-Wanted Rules changes coming on 3 Apr 2016

After much discussion, and consideration of member input from the previous discussion threads, along with delays due to adverse moderator schedules, we anticipate that we will be in a position to implement the changes we have been discussing for the For Sale sub-forum on Sunday, 3 April 2016. During the implementation, which may take several hours, the For Sale / Wanted section will be closed (read-only). A notice will be posted here in "News" when the implementation starts.

Here is a summary of the changes being made:

Overview:
1. Change FS/WTB into FS/FT (For sale/for trade),
2. Add a separate WTB (wanted to buy) sub-forum,
3. Add a new FS - Member-made sub-forum.

The main index pages for all three sections will be ordered by the date of the original post, most recent first, rather than the date of the most recent post in the thread. As such, "bumping" will no longer affect the main index pages. Members who use searches that utilize built-in date functions will still see the effects of recent posts in threads, but that is a relatively small percentage of users.

Links to external points of sale will still be prohibited in the new FS/FT section, but will be allowed, with limitations, in the WTB section.

Comments in the form of questions about the item or the terms of sale are allowed, as are posts by the seller changing price or terms of sale. However, posts that amount to idle chit-chat or empty "bumps" (including "PM sent") are prohibited, and may be deleted at the discretion of the moderators. Potential buyers who wish to track a particular for-sale item are encouraged to subscribe to the thread, so they are notified of changes in price or terms. A higher level of discussion is anticipated in the separate WTB section, particularly if the person seeking the item isn't clear on what they want, but that will no longer adversely affect for-sale threads.

A member may start no more than three FS/FT, WTB, or FS-member made threads per day. Each post, however, can include multiple items, subject to other applicable rules.

If an item has not sold in 30 days, the seller may close that thread and post the FS listing again, incorporating the results of any questions or discussion in the original thread. The three-per-day limit applies. Premature closings/reposts will be considered a rules violation, with the corresponding consequences. Sellers are required to close their for-sale threads when the item is no longer available for any reason.

Wanted to Buy - members seeking to buy an item are encouraged to do the appropriate research prior to posting, so their post can be reasonably specific about what they are seeking to buy. For example, if you aren't sure that a "600mm f/1.0 Schneidenstock" lens will suit your portrait needs, start a discussion thread in the Lens section instead of posting here.

FS - Member-made LF Gear and Accessories - For-sale ads here are limited to new LF gear, accessories and LF darkroom gear actually made personally by the member placing them up for sale. This includes such things as LF cameras (nominally 4x5 and larger), backs, lens boards, focusing screens, developing tubes, etc. (If you outsource the actual manufacturing, don't post it here.) There is a limit of one post per type of item being made and sold by the individual member. So, for example, if you make multiple sizes of lens boards, all must be described in the same thread. Ads for services (e.g. repair, education, guided tours, etc.) are not appropriate in this section.

All of the usual caveats will still apply. Since the new rules are considerably more detailed, the description that appears at the top of the section index will point to the rules in the FAQ, rather than incorporating them as it does presently. Posters will be expected to read the rules in detail prior to posting, and comply. Those who violate the rules repeatedly may lose access to these sections, or be banned from the forum altogether. Thus, someone who makes three new FS posts without reading and complying with the new rules, may be "toast" on the first day.

We have considered all of the points raised in the previous discussion threads, so please don't attempt to "re-litigate" your favorite issues. We hope these changes will strike a reasonable balance between functionality and moderator intervention.

Nice work!

I hope you folks didn't spend too much time thinking this up. I'm fine with the changes... but I was fine with the old way too. :)

If I were king of the forum, though, I'd eliminate the limitation on number of ads and invoke a limit of one item per ad. I find it very hard to follow multiple item ads over time when some sell, others don't, and the lists are sometimes updated and sometimes not.

Why not allowing "PM sent" posts? I only starting doing this when for some reason a seller was not getting PM notifications but was watching his threads. I had sent a PM accepting their terms but not posting any "PM sent" post. Two days later he sold to someone else who did give him a later message and I lost out. This way it reminds them they have a PM and to go look. Why was or is this a problem?

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Originally Posted by BrianShaw

... I'd eliminate the limitation on number of ads and invoke a limit of one item per ad. I find it very hard to follow multiple item ads over time when some sell, others don't, and the lists are sometimes updated and sometimes not.

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Originally Posted by rich815

Why not allowing "PM sent" posts? I only starting doing this when for some reason a seller was not getting PM notifications but was watching his threads. I had sent a PM accepting their terms but not posting any "PM sent" post. Two days later he sold to someone else who did give him a later message and I lost out. This way it reminds them they have a PM and to go look. Why was or is this a problem?

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+1 on both of these comments. Clarity of communication in an online purchase is critical. (Although I have been guilty of multiple item posts!)

Cheers,
Geary

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Originally Posted by Ralph Barker

If an item has not sold in 30 days, the seller may close that thread and post the FS listing again, incorporating the results of any questions or discussion in the original thread.

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How does one close their own thread? I looked at some of my (really) old threads and I don't see an option to do that. Is that something that is going to be turned on during the maintenance?

-Darren

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Originally Posted by Darren Kruger

How does one close their own thread? I looked at some of my (really) old threads and I don't see an option to do that. Is that something that is going to be turned on during the maintenance?

-Darren

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That (closing your own threads) is a feature that will be turned on during implementation.

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Originally Posted by rich815

Why not allowing "PM sent" posts? I only starting doing this when for some reason a seller was not getting PM notifications but was watching his threads. I had sent a PM accepting their terms but not posting any "PM sent" post. Two days later he sold to someone else who did give him a later message and I lost out. This way it reminds them they have a PM and to go look. Why was or is this a problem?

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There have been long discussions about all of these changes. Sorry you missed them, but I'm sure they're still to be found here. (I'm impartial/indifferent on the matter)

I, too, do not understand the no "PM Sent" rule. Most times when I'm looking at FS threads, I'll typically ignore the item if a PM (or more) has already been sent; kind of a "first come, first served" kind of thing to me.

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Originally Posted by Alan9940

I, too, do not understand the no "PM Sent" rule. Most times when I'm looking at FS threads, I'll typically ignore the item if a PM (or more) has already been sent; kind of a "first come, first served" kind of thing to me.

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That is actually the problem. Some people send a PM asking for details about an item, not about actually buying it. An actual potential buyer thinks it has been sold, and the item languishes until it is bumped up. By then people think it's a dog, and ignore it. People also ignore requests to send email, rather than PMs, but no rule can change that :).

Mods, while you're doing the maintenance, can you put the notice about the number of stored messages at the top of the page, rather than the bottom? This would prompt people to clear their storage more often.

Kumar

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...=proposed+rule

Solutions looking for problems if you ask me. Adding complexity to a system should be justified by the improvements it brings.

The first post has a whole lot of rules, but little explanation as to why this is any better than the current system. Is something wrong? What is it? Does this fix it?

Yes it's *different* and maybe certain people like it more, but is it a categorical improvement? No. Just different. And with more complexity, more bureaucracy.

But what do I know... Just been admin'ing vbulletin, drupal, and phpbb forums for over a decade, nothing to see here...

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Originally Posted by B.S.Kumar

. . . Mods, while you're doing the maintenance, can you put the notice about the number of stored messages at the top of the page, rather than the bottom? This would prompt people to clear their storage more often.

Kumar

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That would involve changing the standard coding, which then causes issues with software upgrades.

I'm sure it will work out fine. But I'm not going to try to read and understand all this now. I'll wait until I have to sell something. I'm sure this is most "interesting/infuriating" to people that buy and sell a lot (more than one item a month is a lot).

Are these rules being set up to deter trade on the forum, or encourage it? Honestly I can't tell.

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Originally Posted by Nodda Duma

Are these rules being set up to deter trade on the forum, or encourage it? Honestly I can't tell.

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We encourage trade among members, even though that is not the primary focus of the forum. But, the mechanics and the associated administrative involvement also need to be workable. Our hope is that these changes will be a significant improvement.

So what's not 'workable' now? Seems to be working fine.

Seems quite sensible, it'll be far better with the FS/FT separated from the WTB.

Ian

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Originally Posted by fishbulb

So what's not 'workable' now? Seems to be working fine.

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You might benefit from reading the following threads:

Upcoming changes for the FS/WTB sub-forum, Part I


Upcoming changes in the FS/WTB forum, Part II

It should be remembered that the LFPF is a free resource, operated by volunteers on donated server and network resources. We don't have a paid staff monitoring activity 24x7. Thus, each violation of the rules, or perceived violation, generates one or more reported post e-mails behind the scenes that interrupt the moderators' days, each of which needs to be dealt with in a reasonable time. At the worst of times, that might reach a couple of dozen reports per day, suggesting the system is not working well. Since the For-Sale section is not the primary focus of the forum, the other alternative would be to eliminate it altogether. We'd rather not do that, since the sale of used equipment fosters growth within the LF community, and forcing people to use eBay and other paid market resources would diminish that benefit.

I understand the "PM sent" as it is redundant posts but what about the "clean out your mailbox" alerts? Are these type of post being considered as empty bumps? Did not read about these type of posts, please clarify as these are left to the discretion of the moderators.

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Originally Posted by B.S.Kumar

That is actually the problem. Some people send a PM asking for details about an item, not about actually buying it. An actual potential buyer thinks it has been sold, and the item languishes until it is bumped up. By then people think it's a dog, and ignore it. People also ignore requests to send email, rather than PMs, but no rule can change that :).

Mods, while you're doing the maintenance, can you put the notice about the number of stored messages at the top of the page, rather than the bottom? This would prompt people to clear their storage more often.

Kumar

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Or decline to buy because the entirely predicable postage became apparent. Or their spouse did not give permission.

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Originally Posted by TXFZ1

I understand the "PM sent" as it is redundant posts but what about the "clean out your mailbox" alerts? Are these type of post being considered as empty bumps? Did not read about these type of posts, please clarify as these are left to the discretion of the moderators.

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Yes, we have a lot of discretion, and we try very hard to apply it intelligently.

Eliminating the silly "PM sent!" replies is fine with me. On another forum I'm on, which is extremely active with buying and selling, people were demanding that the open thread "I'll take it" be somehow mandatory and sacrosanct. As if a seller cannot decide he wants to sell to the second, or third PM he receives. He can, will, and does at times. There are no guarantees in life, certainly not on a private forum. But people from those other forums want some assurance that if they say "PM Sent" it guarantees their purchase, based on the timestamp of when they replied. Nope, a seller can do what he wants. Sell, decide to not sell, sell to his brother in law. There are no "Laws" in barter and trade.

+1.

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Originally Posted by goamules

... But people from those other forums want some assurance that if they say "PM Sent" it guarantees their purchase, based on the timestamp of when they replied.

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This is definitely not always the case.
There are 'Numerous' other reasons... Why people may say "PM Sent".
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Some of the 'possible' reasons for sending a PM are:

To get an answer to a 'Question'...
To notify the Seller of an 'Error in the Listing'...
To notify the Seller that his Inbox is 'Full' and to 'Clear' some of his Messages...
To notify the Seller to 'Check' his Inbox -- For *New PM's.
(*These 'New' PM's could of course be yours and/or...
Even from other Forum Members -- As perhaps he is not getting/taking notice of his PM's)...

And the list goes 'On and On'... Thank-you!

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Originally Posted by Taija71A

This is definitely not always the case.
There are 'Numerous' other reasons... Why people may say "PM Sent".
--
Some of the 'possible' reasons for sending a PM are:

To get an answer to a 'Question'...
To notify the Seller of an 'Error in the Listing'...
To notify the Seller that his Inbox is 'Full' and to 'Clear' some of his Messages...
To notify the Seller to 'Check' his Inbox -- For *New PM's.
(*These 'New' PM's could of course be yours and/or...
Even from other Forum Members -- As perhaps he is not getting/taking notice of his PM's)...

And the list goes 'On and On'... Thank-you!

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Surely most of that can be in a reply in the listing thread, more detail can be sent privately by PM.

It's about clarity, if I want to buy something then I state that clearly, if there's a question that needs asking it's most likely relevant to other buyers or sellers. Often questions are about shipping.

Sometime sellers don't state where they are, or their location is ambiguous, other times they aren't clear about currency forgetting that forums like this have large International memberships.

Ian

I'm confused about the value of the "PM sent" reply.

If the "PM sent" author actually sent a PM, then the OP would receive it and have a time/date stamp. If the OP's mailbox is full, they get a notice saying it's full. If they've chosen not to get alerts when a PM is sent, well that's their choice.

The "PM sent" adds nothing to the community at large and clutters things up.

Let's take this one step farther. I buy things here often. Nobody but principals ever see the transaction. I never 'PM sent', a total waste of time. If you want the thing, send PM immediately or email, with the name of the thingy copied and pasted as the subject of PM and type. 'I will buy it.'

End of message. Very quick. Pay ASAP.

I prefer to buy from known sellers. Known to me by observation.

Additionally I never want or use the buyer/seller advisory thread. I think that abomination should be closed. I request sellers/buyers do not post about me there. As I have never done a bad deal or complained, they have no need. Equally I never praise or condemn a seller or buyer as I am darn careful whom I deal with.

See you on the playground.:)

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Originally Posted by goamules

Eliminating the silly "PM sent!" replies is fine with me. On another forum I'm on, which is extremely active with buying and selling, people were demanding that the open thread "I'll take it" be somehow mandatory and sacrosanct. As if a seller cannot decide he wants to sell to the second, or third PM he receives. He can, will, and does at times. There are no guarantees in life, certainly not on a private forum. But people from those other forums want some assurance that if they say "PM Sent" it guarantees their purchase, based on the timestamp of when they replied. Nope, a seller can do what he wants. Sell, decide to not sell, sell to his brother in law. There are no "Laws" in barter and trade.

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I don't consider PM sent silly for the very valid reason I outline above. But that's a seller issue I guess. I just want the item.

What would be more useful to me than all these unnecessary changes would be a means of blocking the buy/sell threads from the "new posts" view. Recently it's been hard to pick up the new conversations going on from the "noise" generated by all the fs posts - especially on tapatalk

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Originally Posted by HMG

Or decline to buy because the entirely predicable postage became apparent. Or their spouse did not give permission.

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I would assume most of us know better than to ask our spouses before buying another lens.


I gather the new rules offer a beginning of a new policy of restricting activity by dealers? Has this really been a problem (as far as price/quality with the dealers we presently have)? It's not like there are dozens of specialized sellers with proper knowledge of LF gear, I personally had no problem with allowing them access to the FS forum here.

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Originally Posted by Jody_S

I gather the new rules offer a beginning of a new policy of restricting activity by dealers? Has this really been a problem (as far as price/quality with the dealers we presently have)? It's not like there are dozens of specialized sellers with proper knowledge of LF gear, I personally had no problem with allowing them access to the FS forum here.

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Need to swat this before it takes on a life of its own. The new policy will in fact be more permissive of small dealers. The current policy says "no dealers allowed", period. This has led to lots of controversy about whether members who are very active in FS/WTB should count as dealers and thus be restricted. Recognizing the changes in the LF market, the new policy will set a threshold that rules out large commercial enterprises but allows room for small or part-time traders. Other changes in the posting rules for these sections are designed in part to achieve an even playing field for all members, regardless of whether they are high-volume sellers or buyers, while minimizing the various disruptions that FS/WTB posts have caused under the current rules.

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Originally Posted by Jody_S

I gather the new rules offer a beginning of a new policy of restricting activity by dealers? Has this really been a problem (as far as price/quality with the dealers we presently have)? It's not like there are dozens of specialized sellers with proper knowledge of LF gear, I personally had no problem with allowing them access to the FS forum here.

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No. Small dealers (< $1 mil in annual sales) will be explicitly allowed, as described in the previous discussion threads. The current ban on (undefined) dealers was aimed at the big guys (B&H, etc.).

As one who has bought and sold through this forum (which has always been better than using ebay), I have no problem with the new rules. I hope they make things easier for the moderators. If not, we need to slip 'em a quarter for every listing... :)

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Originally Posted by Ralph Barker

No. Small dealers (< $1 mil in annual sales) will be explicitly allowed, as described in the previous discussion threads. The current ban on (undefined) dealers was aimed at the big guys (B&H, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Oren Grad

Need to swat this before it takes on a life of its own. The new policy will in fact be more permissive of small dealers. The current policy says "no dealers allowed", period. This has led to lots of controversy...

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Thanks for the clarification. I don't normally follow pie-fights, I was unaware of any arguments over who is or isn't a dealer.

What will happen to existing adds placed in the days before the change occurs? Will they need to be reposted or just switch over?
Apologies if this has been covered. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by lecarp

What will happen to existing adds placed in the days before the change occurs? Will they need to be reposted or just switch over?

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The existing threads will remain. When the changes become effective, existing threads will be displayed, and any new posts to existing threads will be moderated, according to the new rules. We will not retroactively delete bumps or other follow-up posts that were allowed under the rules in effect at the time they were posted.

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Originally Posted by Ralph Barker

For example, if you aren't sure that a "600mm f/1.0 Schneidenstock" lens will suit your portrait needs, start a discussion thread in the Lens section instead of posting here.

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I'm sure I want one. But it has to be cheap :-)

Mods, I think you have done a good job. The new rules seem reasonable and easy enough to understand. I hope they will make your work a bit easier.

Michael

The changes noted above have been implemented, and the new sub-forums re-opened for business. Please report any issues in the following thread:

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...y-at-10-00-MDT

The PM limit has also been increased to 200, with a max of 2.000 chars/message.

To understand all of the changes please be sure to read the updated FAQ in full:

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...rules_faq_item