Re: Hypercat vs Pyrocat MC
I dont know Jay, without seeing the family of curves for your test it is hard to compare the two. From your SBR 7 chart I see that you get a b+f of 0.28, this is not any different from what I get with pyrocat HD. I would suggest you post the curve for Sandy's SBR 7.4 along with yours so we can make a better comparison, since I am unable to see what you acertain. Your IDmin is 0.39, taking a guess from Sandy's family of curves his IDmin seems to be about the same....so, I am having a hard time seeing your claims from these curves you posted.
Re: Hypercat vs Pyrocat MC
I'd suggest that if would like these "comparisons" to be worth anything, you go to the trouble of testing both under indentical conditions instead of simply publishing someone else's tests without their permission. The fact that you haven't bothered to actually test both yourself under indentical conditions makes any conclusions completely without basis.
Re: Hypercat vs Pyrocat MC
Given the history of Jay and Sandy, the only beleivable tests are going to come from a much removed third party. I realize that pyro developers have something of a finite pool of consumers to draw from, but the oneupmanship and vituperation are starting to feel like the Cola wars.
Re: Hypercat vs Pyrocat MC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Graham
Given the history of Jay and Sandy, the only beleivable tests are going to come from a much removed third party. I realize that pyro developers have something of a finite pool of consumers to draw from, but the oneupmanship and vituperation are starting to feel like the Cola wars.
I fully agree with you. Even I am getting sick of this staining developer discussion and may start looking for a good traditional alternative.
In this case, however, in the start of this thread there is a clear violation of intellectual property rights and I have sent a message to the LF forum informing them of that fact. The rules of participation at both APUG and the LF forum protect intellectual property rights.
1. APUG
APUG.ORG Terms of Use Agreement
http://www.apug.org/forums/faq.php?f...q_new_faq_item
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2. LF Forum statement on intellectul property rights
http://www.largeformatphotography.in...right_faq_item
What About Intellectual Property Right
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Sandy King
Re: Hypercat vs Pyrocat MC
Jorge,
I use 35mm film for my testing, which has a base density of about .2, and Sandy uses 120 or sheet film, which have far less base density, as you know. I'm not sure how the BTZS softwatre calculates B+F, but my density for step 21 is .23, and I don't know how B+F can be higher than that. I don't know how to separate out one curve from the family Sandy posted without his raw data, but I don't think it's too difficult to look at his SBR 7.4 curve separately, and compare the data for that curve against mine.
Don,
I have tested both developers under identical conditions; exposing my tests in my sensitometer, developing them in my Jobo ATL 2 PLus, and measuring them with my Noritsu DM-1 densitometer. I can't make conditions any more identical with my facilities, which are more than adequate to the task. I used Sandy's data for his developer, which he claims it's accurate, useful data, and my data for my developer, for which I claim the same. Sandy always attacks my testing to refute my data, and I thought it might be interesting to see the two side-by-side. I can post my own data for both developers, but my data for Pyrocat MC is substantially similar to Sandy's. The fact that you put comparison in quotes, and assumed I haven't "bothered" to do my own testing reveals your own biases very clearly. Some people believe what they want to believe, and for them, comparative data is a waste of effort.
Colin,
it is in no one's interst to post faulty data for their own developer, which is one reason I used Sandy's data for his developer. If we post faulty data, our developers will not be effective in use. It just doesn't make any sense to do that. I posted this comparison because Sandy has made a lot of theoretical claims for my developer that are not borne out in testing, or in actual use. If I simply said, "Sandy is wrong about my developer", without providing any data, I assure you I would be roundly criticized for it. Anyone who cares enough about this comparison to want to know the truth of it, can perform their own tests, as both formulae are published, so you don't have to take my word for it, or Sandy's.
Jay
Re: Hypercat vs Pyrocat MC
Sorry Jay
I actually have trouble believing that you have tested them under identical conditions - if you had, I don't understand why you wouldn't have used that data instead of simply purloining Sandy King's data? Seems very odd that you would rather publish inoformation here which is of no merit ("integrity"?) due to potential process differences if you already have the identical data.
Re: Hypercat vs Pyrocat MC
Sandy, you're back!
I knew you couldn't stay away, it's too much fun here. I'm not sure you have a legal leg to stand on regarding intellectual property rights, as you gave permission to use your data at apug, without giving any limitations or restrictions. Have I misrepresented your data in some way, or are you just not pleased with the comparison? If you're looking for a good non-staining developer, I can make a few suggestions.
Jay
Re: Hypercat vs Pyrocat MC
Don,
Sandy cannot refute his own data. It's that simple. He claims it's accurate and reliable, so what's the problem? BTZS testing removes "potential process differences" to the extent that's possible, and Sandy has written about the transferrability of this kind of data. I'd be happy to post my own data for Pyrocat MC if it will make you more comfortable, but I suspect that would be a wasted effort where you're concerned. If you don't like my data, or Sandy's, generate your own and post your results for the rest of us.
Jay
Re: Hypercat vs Pyrocat MC