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Let’s say you’re out in the landscape, looking for a pleasing composition.
“There’s no shot,” you finally decide. “Not around here. Not in this light, not with my gear.”
You head for home, a bit crestfallen. :(
Whose fault is this?
You’re not really going to blame the landscape or your gear, are you?
Fault? You don't have a legal right to a great shot every time you leave the house. I recommend reading Minor White...Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroique
Michael
I never head home crestfallen when I *don't* make a photograph. I consider all of it research for the next time I come back. Film is expensive, why make bad photographs?
The only time I'm a bit peeved is if I miss a shot I should have taken. 'I'll have a cup of coffee before I take the picture' has ruined quite a few shots!
Adrian
A bad day of LF landscape photography is just a good of of exercise.
I totally enjoy hiking in the redwoods -- even with 60 lbs of 8x10 gear and no film exposed. There might be wind, rain or whatever.
But sometimes I am walking around seeing nothing -- so I'll just set up the camera on anything closely resembling a image -- and that gets my head into the right space.
DittoQuote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Pybus
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Pybus
Rick "who has given up on making pictures at a spot many times and not felt the need to assign blame" Denney
Yeah I get bummed but I don't blame it on anything. However I am trying to take more shots as practice (especially on 8x10 x-ray film). The more I shoot the more I learn, so if I leave the house with x number of sheets I try to shoot all of them. On 4x5 with T-Max I'm a little more conservative due to cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaughn
I think these two observations suggest a psychological truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran
Namely, that “Going through the motions” can help restore an ailing vision.
They’re also self-critical – they don’t point fingers at their gear, or “the light.”
Sometimes trying too hard isn't so good. I stop seeing potential images if I try too hard. But then at other times I really need to take any picture to get the flow going.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaughn
I totally agree with this, and sometimes it does help me. If I cannot find anything I think will be a strong image ill sometimes find something that is OK....seems like going through the motions sometimes helps me see. Granted I am more likely to do this with 4x5 than 8x10 due to costs.
It's kind of how i think I see differently when I have a capable camera with me. This is the reason I recently got back into the mamiya 7 system so I can carry a camera everyday, even when the goal is not photography. If I have a camera with me that I can make a decent enlargement with I tend to find more things to shoot, somehow doesn't work the same for me if I carry just the digital point n shoot.
If there is nothing that stirs my muse, I'm just greatful forthe time spent being outside and not wasteing any of my 8x10 film ;)
To avoid that problem one could make scouting before shooting.
But even that gives no guarentee for a success.
The weather can change and the light,
someone painted a building with an ugly color the day before or the whole scene is suddenly a construction site and ruins your carefully planned picture.
It happened to me that I wanted to shoot a very nice shrub in a nearby park. I forgot the film and
said to me: no problem, can be done the next days.
When I came back some days later the gardeners have "shaved" the shrub....
Hey, but i learned from it ;)
We cannot be every photographer, everywhere, every time. If I cannot see a shot, I leave. Maybe in the future I will see it. Maybe another photographer would have found it, but all are immaterial to me at the time, when I cannot.
Its important to know when not to drive yourself nuts and go home. Sometimes I have walked/driven home and not stopped for shots I have seen. Sometimes you have just gotta stop and, as a person who drives myself pretty hard, this IMO is also a consideration quite separate from 'vision.'
Turtle, I’ve been waiting for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle
You’re one of the precious few.
Those who know the composition is always there, whether seen or not.
For some reason, practice is not considered "normal" for a photographer like it is for a musician.
Even when I'm not inspired, I can find something to shoot that challenges my technique or process, even if it's not exciting.
- Leigh
I think you hone how you work. Usually when working on a project I have a ritualistic meander journeying to where I'll be shooting, taking in the lanscape, watching for changes sometimes making. This gets me into the feel and mood of the landscape (area) I'm shooting in.
The sense of place is almost more important than making images so it doesn't bother me if I don't make any images at all. In practice the images I make tend to be chosen almost subconsciously as if by instict. Much of it is helped by familiarity with equipment, camera, lenses, films etc, and I know that I will have cosen the camera position, lens etc with minimal thought as to whether one lens would be better than another, or how I might vary my position to improve the shot. In practice that first position/choice of lens invariably turns out to be the one that works best.
Heroique started this thread following a discussion of camera limitation (through lack of movements) which is why he added this line "You’re not really going to blame the landscape or your gear, are you? "
What ever you're shooting you have to work within the constrains and limitations of your equipment, so if you're shooting with say a Crown Graphic with it's very limited movements there will be times when you can't make the images you would prefer and have to make compomises. I found this occurring quite frequently but it's not the equipment that's to blame it's my inappropriate choice of camera. It was the frustration of knowing I could have made the images with my Wista 45DX but neccessity meant I had to use a hand holdable camera (where tripods aren't permitted).
That doesn't mean I couldn't get good images with the Crown Graphic rather that it ruled out some entirely or compromised how I'd have preferred to make others. Perhaps if the only LF camera I'd ever used was a Crown Graphic or similar it would be different however having used my Wista for over 25 years and monorails for a decade before that I've grown too used to making good use of a fuller range of movements.
The Crown Graphic will still get used but it's been superceeded by a Super Graphic which still gives me the ability to work hand-held while having sufficient movements. It's about using the most appropriate camera that suits your specific photographic needs.
Ian
I don't feel that I have to make a photograph every time I go out. And, as I photograph more, I tend to make fewer and fewer photos, having become more discriminating and experienced.
For me, it is much like hunting; success (or failure) depends on a number of serendipitous confluences. Of course, one of the factors is me; often, when not having shot actively for a while, it takes me a day or so to "warm up" again. But, there are lots of environmental factors including where you happen to be at particular time, but this does not necessarily have to be a particularly famous or scenic or even interesting place. I like to say, "pictures are where you find them." I spent an entire week in Yosemite and came away with one "shit shot" of a reflection of Half Dome that was taken mostly because I felt I should at least have one negative from there. While driving on, I ended up spending an hour or two with icicles hanging on rocks on the side of the highway...
That said, I find I find more shots when I have a clear, open mind and a lot of things I want to communicate. When I'm feeling particularly misanthropic, which happens on occasion, I shoot less, just because I don't really want to share with those bastards anyway. Maybe I'll make some very private images. When all is right with the world and my desire to share with my fellow man is at a high, I tend to make more images.
Finally, there are times when I've worked an area and say almost exactly what you titled the thread, "there's no shot around here ... time to head on." I don't ever really stop photographing, I just take breaks. There's always tomorrow, next week, next winter... I will find something, sooner or later.
Addendum: Sometimes I do blame my inability to get a shot on my equipment. Damned camera won't move like it needs to, the lens won't cover like it's supposed to, and where the hell is f/397 anyway so I can get everything sharp, and what did I do with that 1800mm telephoto?! Seriously, I sometimes visualize images that just aren't technically feasible with what I have with me, or maybe with what is even available. Oh well; I carry a gallery of such missed shots around with me in my head.
Best,
Doremus
Nobody should suffer photographic disenfranchisement. For that reason I always carry an attorney in my camera bag.
Otherwise, I can identify well with what Doremus said.
I believe we have had discussions on scouting an area. I do not use scouting as a tool. I am sort of anti-scouting for my work. For me, part of the sense of place that Ian referred to is my sense of the place at the time I am experiencing it -- not trying to recapture what I saw and felt about a place on a previous visit. Very rarely do I walk out the door with a preconceived notion of what I will put onto film...and as I reach the redwoods in my car, I decide where I am going to park and start my day.
At the same time however, how I experience a place is influenced by past visits to a place -- and all my experiences with light that I have had in many places in the past. In 1981 hitched hiked around in New Zealand for 3 months with a 4x5. How I saw the light on the landscape was influenced by the year I spent in NZ 6 years earlier (going to university) -- which was before I even began to photograph. The 4x5 I was using had a massive light leak and I go only a couple images from the hitch-hiking trip. But I still had the experience of looking at the light, photographing, and printing those negatives in my head as I walked for miles and miles in between rides. I returned to NZ in 1986 for a 6 month bicycle trip with a dependable 4x5. While I did return to some of the places of the 3 month trip, most were new to me, and while I would not call the hitchhiking trip "scouting", it greatly influenced how I saw the NZ light...and was one of the factors that allowed me to make a solid portfolio of work.
For many years I had only one lens, yet never felt that I was missing images due to this limitation. There are an infinite number of possible images out in front of us. One can not limit infinity. A painter might have a hard time getting an idea/concept/image onto canvas, but there are no limits to number of ideas available to him or her.
I have to learn to do this. Too many dreary banal shots after getting to the site when sun suddenly disappears (or appears) or the scene is not what I thought, but still say "what the heck" and shoot anyway. When I look at the results I'm miserable. Much better to have gone home.
I don't see that "fault" enters into it. Why does blame have to be affixed to anyone or anything just because I didn't see something I wanted to photograph? I try very hard to avoid the syndrome of "I came all this way/got up so early, I guess I should photograph something." That's much easier to do with the price of film being what it is than it used to be.
One thing I always do when I'm finished and start to head home is save at least one sheet of film for the return. It can be surprising how many things you see when walking in one direction that you didn't see when walking in the other direction.
Sometimes I bicycle around with my Holga, up and down alleyways. I photograph things when it occurs to me that they would make a good photograph. Sometimes I go through all the film I have. Sometimes I don't. What may not come out in one sort of light comes out in another sort of light. We are dependent on the light we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle
Perhaps the problem lies in the fact one is just 'looking', rather than 'seeing'.Quote:
There’s no shot around here – time to head home.”
--P
When I was young I often made the mistake of trying to force a good photograph. I do realize that great images are "made", e.g. still lifes, portraits, abstracts, etc. but they're not quickly/easily "found" on or off road... not in my little area of the country. And this is what the OP is about.
Funny... it's been nearly thirty years since I took my last "real" photograph and am only recently getting back into it. I still haven't taken a single shot. I thought I'd photograph a dilapidated old bridge a few miles from my house sometime this weekend but, after having a more thorough look at it, at all angles, Friday on the way home I realized there's not a "great image" to be had of that bridge. Good? Sure. Great? No. There's an old cabin just down the road but there's a danged giant power pole smack-dab in front of it. I could, perhaps, include the pole in the image to try and tell a story but I'm not sure I can get the positioning right to make the message clear.
I know it's weird but I've spent my whole life observing nearly everything around me and practicing that old skill of looking for a good image. IMHO, "great images" are quite rare. On the other hand... maybe I'm just jaded. :)
There may be many reasons for this. Back in the late 1980's I did a workshop with the well known British photographer John Blakemore and while out on a field trip making images came across him sitting on a log having a cigarette. We began talking about why neither of us were making images and it transpired it was really for the same reasons, we were outside our normal parameters both involved in our own project work and had no purpose for any images we might have taken that day. So yes on that day we were just looking rather tahn seeing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preston
We did discuss making other images outside of ongoing projects but concluded there needs to be something extra to make that worthwhile. I know in my case a few of those odd shots have been the trigger/starting point for new projects. I've been photographing old gates, fences and doors for about 25 years some have been part of existing projects most haven't but I've always had half a mind to put them together as a portfoloio or exhibition set on their own.
It's all too easy to shoot just for the sake of it, it's much harder to have a discipline and only shoot images you really want.
Ian
Preston, I’ve been waiting on you (and other posters), too.
All the useful points raise a complicated question in my mind. Let’s see if I can simplify it ... without oversimplifying it – Ian’s anecdote above (about resting on the log) has already hinted at some of the following:
In any given landscape, in any given light, here are a few (of the infinite) possibilities that, I think, are always there around you – whether you “see” them or not:
1. Pleasing compositions possible w/ my tools.
2. Pleasing compositions not possible w/ my tools.
3. Displeasing compositions possible w/ my tools.
4. Displeasing compositions not possible w/ my tools.
Do true “seers” – such as Preston & other posters here – try to exclude the distractions of #2, #3, and #4 from their vision?
Or if “seers” try to include them, doesn’t this come at a significant cost? Namely, obscuring their vision of #1 – even reducing the necessary mental energy or field time to capture it?
Often, in the mountains, I’m an “includer,” and this has led me to those occasional moments of “There’s no shot here – time to head home,” but it has never shaken my faith that the shots are, indeed, really there, always.
I totally agree Ian.
I look at a lot of my roll film shots and really wonder why I dropped the shutter.
One of the reasons I'm upgrading my 4x5 kit, is that my shot volume keeps dropping as I get pickier, and given that volume, using sheet film is actually becoming the easy way to do get shots in a timely manner; rolls are staying in the camera too long.
5. uninteresting compositions possible w/ my tools.
6. uninteresting compositions not possible w/ my tools.
7. Interesting location, excellent poosibilities, but no thing inspires you at the time
a. make mental note to return when the light or weathers better
b. return different time of day (or season)
c. return with different camera/lens (maybe a panoramic camera)
d return when in diferent frame of mind
e. return when there's far fewer people around
8. You get good shots but you return again because there's more to inspire you, possibly different weather, season etc.
These are some of the reasons I return to locations.
Ian
I actually know a local guy who does this meticulously, going back to improve upon what he's done before. He may revisit his various and sundry tripod holes repeatedly for years on end. Sometimes he'll expose two sheets, one and a spare, sometimes nothing, sometimes serendipity gives him a fresh set of tripod holes.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanG
I try to take everything in. Even if I find #1, but do not have my camera (or have film left to expose), I am not disappointed -- I practice photography to be able to see it in the first place -- so finding #1 or #2 at all just means I am successful in my practice. Never worry about #3 and #4 -- never enter into my mind as a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroique
Ian's #8 -- I have been photographing along the same stretch of creek with LF since 1979.
These two scenarios are (forgive the pun) the focus of what I do in the field whether or not I have a camera. I don't fret over numbers 3 and 4. Regarding number 2: There are times when tools I have aren't right for the scene, but I set up anyway and make a serious attempt to stretch the limits of the possible. If I can't make it work, I know that I have learned something.Quote:
1. Pleasing compositions possible w/ my tools.
2. Pleasing compositions not possible w/ my tools.
Like others, Ian's #8 rings true for me, as well. I've been photographing a particular stretch Deadman's Creek and it's canyon in the Sonora Pass country since the mid-seventies. There is always something new to discover, either subject matter wise, or in the conditions of weather and light.
When I do get that, “There’s no shot around here – time to head home.” feeling, I try to think outside the box; freeing my imagination to see the possibilites, rather than obstacles. Sometimes, just sitting on a log, or on a rock, and feeling all the good things going on around me gives me the impetus to hang around, while keeping my eyes open.
--P
There are good replies to this thread, as we probably all have had similar experiences.
I am not a fan of quoting photographers, however, for this thread I think a couple of them made comments appropriate to the topic, not specifically addressing the landscape:
"I'm always mentally photographing everything as practice."
Minor White
"Mysteries lie all around us, even in the most familiar things, waiting only to be perceived".
Wynn Bullock
The latter qoute I am particularly fond of as I contemplate a book of my work.
I don't believe you can 'force' images, but I do believe you can persevere in a relaxed and open state that leaves you receptive to seeing. I think the two are fundamentally different. As a result, while one may be able to spend some time in an area, exploring that openness and trying to 'connect', there is no guarantee that it will happen sufficiently that you will be able to make a photograph you feel worthwhile.
I understand the musical analogy of practice, but in most cases that is a process of (to use AA speak) performing someone else's musical score i.e. more analogous to practicing your printing. Creating the original photograph is therefore analogous to composition, or to writing, where writers block, or simply fallow periods, are to be expected. I am not sure you can just smash through, but perhaps walk away, let go, and come back with a fresh mind. After a few days off, the words flow. After leaving a scene and coming back the next day, images may leap out out you, because you have changed. Heck, it sometimes happens when you turn around, or kneel down to pick up your bag!
I think it is magic, quite frankly. I might be able to explain what happened when I made some of my strongest images, but I would never be able to describe to someone else how to 'make such images happen' because this would suggest that we can construct great images from a cold start and I do not believe that is the case. I believe there is a 'flow' that is central to the process and over which we have little ability to force. The only forcing I do is to stop myself trying to overwork or force things, but instead to relax and try to achieve that 'flow.' If that means stopping everything and walking away, so be it.
As someone said earlier about cycling about with a Holga, I agree. I do the same with a lot of my photography, but in such cases the photograph is a response to an experience or seeing something and so is not forced, from the outset, as an act of photography. You are by definition (in the Holga, bicycle example) constantly moving, so not forcing anything, but being open to things you may see. The LF example here would involve seeing and interesting subject and getting off your bike and 'making it happen.'
I think exercise is useful in terms of familiarity with kit and one's patter (for street/documentary work, for example) but sometimes when I do this I know I am not creating strong images, but I am immersing myself into a state (or trying to) in which I might.
I believe it's all in our heads and the day we can reliably make photos happen at will, every time, there will have no mysteries left, or interest in the photographs we have created. The contrary position is that sometimes we must let go and head for home.
Often when I'm out with my camera I see the image subconsciously before I see it knowingly. I stop and backtrack to where I got the subconscious signal and start to try to locate the image.
I cannot do this if I'm trying too hard.
Adrian
I've got a scenery I want to photograph, somewhere on my half hour drive to work. It's a flat land with some treelines and rural road. Nothing spectacular, but it practically screams for a nice clowdy sky. I haven't had a chance to take a decent picture. I've setup my (small format) camera maybe ones or twice in half a year, but never up to the point of actually taking the shot. It's kind of frustrating but that's part of the game, I think. You just have to be at the right place, at the right time, with the right equipment.
Part of shooting nature photos is the waiting game. Waiting for the right moment. But what is the "right" moment? Do you want to make the same image as they are in your mind? With the right amount of clouds, perfect light, sun at a certain height? Or do you make pictures from a decent (but not perfect) condition and see how it turns out?
(I’ve noticed that in many healthy threads, it’s usually the posts in the 30’s that serve as its heart and mind. The posts that come before are still maturing; those that follow begin attracting the cynics & wayfarers. A quick Thanks to the thoughtful posts immediately above. Maybe we can print, frame, and display this uncommonly wise series in the Lounge.)
From now on it'll just be, "Blame it on Heroique!" – a general disclaimer for the cognoscenti.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroique
Point ...and match!Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroique
This thread reminds me how different the practice of photography can be, even for sub-groups of B&W LF photographers. At my most passive, I watch for a *composition and shift my perspective as my subject interacts with light and space, and in more active practice I nudge the composition a bit, as I tend to do in the "studio", orienting the camera, subject, background, and lights. This seems far removed from driving around, or hiking around looking for views to photograph, but I do overlap with this practice. Sometimes I need to expose some film for a test, or I just feel like making some photos, so I'll grab a camera and head out for a walk. I usually, but not always have a route in mind, and some secondary purpose, like getting a cup of coffee, or stopping by Glazer's. En route, I'm in visual overdrive. With a film camera, my goal is to use the film I've loaded before returning home, which is rarely a problem. A digital camera is another matter entirely, and I find myself "shifting gears". If I take the time to see what's around me, and make a composition of everything interesting, I don't make much headway, and I become kind of visually saturated, and need to walk a little. I think walking gets the blood flowing and resets visual perception to a slightly different mode of operation -- eyes on path, scanning, predicting, evaluating -- but then that path crosses something visually interesting (or my brain has had time to reset and notice interesting things more readily), and before I know it, my path has become a ramble again, and I'm working, composing, calculating, extrapolating, etc. And so that's how my walks go, in fits and starts of visual perception and calculation, most often in the context of the equipment on hand and my goals for the materials. If I'm carrying a pinhole camera, I'm looking for ways to exploit that particular set of advantages while accommodating the set of limitations, and the same goes if I'm shooting color, very slow film, panoramic format, view camera, etc., etc.
I think this ability of the brain to adapt to a mode of visual perception based on a set of imposed conditions is fascinating.
* I'm not sure I'm conscious of looking for a composition in the moment, or if it's more vague and moody, and I just click the shutter when it feels right.
Well, the gear I have is selected to facilitate making the sorts of images I like. I can't control the light. If I don't see an image I like, for whatever reason, I just go home. No biggie. (smiling smiley)Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroique
Interesting, I’ve noticed two camps – evenly divided I’d say – about how to start seeing shots that just don’t seem to be there:
The first likes going through the “shot-taking” motions to lure inspiration; the second prefers to just stop, relax, or walk away ... and maybe return later.
Both have worked for me, but the first has produced a greater number of favorite compositions.
It is interesting to read the views on this.
I used to take my digital camera as well as my LF stuff just to take a photo of something even knowing inside that ultimately it was going to be no good. Now I don't bother and just enjoy getting out and having a walk. If I manage to see anything I am happy with that's an added bonus.
Looking through the image sharing part of the forum however (most recently on the leaves thread) shows that there are potential compositions everywhere, and it seems to be more about thinking about potential images in ways I ordinarily would not have considered (such as the small instead of the large view). I know I will have having a good look at the leaves next time I am out and about, which is something I would not even have considered at all before looking through that thread in particular. If there is no shot to be found at the time, it's probably my fault, but I might find it some time in the future.
+1 :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Michael E
And, some days I just don't feel it. I can't force it, so those days I go do other things, like explore new trails.
I don't bother with consolation snapshots. Though I do share your disappointment in having nothing to process and print from the excursion.
I dont like going home with nothing, I also don't like paying $12 AUD to get a 4x5 slide processed knowing full well the image on it has no feeling, no meaning. its just a shot to make me feel like I achieved something on the day..
I do enjoy bushwalking and hiking so going for a 15km walk through the forest in search of good light is fine with me, If I get a shot or two, awesome, if not, well... next time. film and processing is too expensive to shoot willy nilly..
PetaPixel:
Creative Self-Portraits Captured Inside an Airplane Lavatory
A Fascinating Look at the Microscopic World Inside One Drop of Water
Macro Shots Using a Canon 5D Mark II with a 4×5 Large Format Camera
There's lots more ideas on that site.
When I was starting out with my Pentax 6x7, a coworker told me about a book from Kodak. It started with a shot of the Earth from orbit, with the caption, "Number of subjects: 1." The next shot was of a satellite photograph, the next was aerial and so on, and finally zooming into the microscopic range, and always increasing the subject count.
So the next time you're in a bathroom stall with some time on your hands, make a self portrait!
Only those large format photographers who haven't read Bruce Barlow's Finely Focused think that practice is not important/required.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigh
Bruce is singularly responsible for my M&Ms addiction.
JD
I am of the same mind. I call it "having the mojo". Some days I see compositions when I have the mojo and some days I can't find a composition to save myself. My buddies call it "The Harley Daze", when I just wander around and can't see diddly-squat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson
It just doesn't work for me if I am not seeing things. The images are rotten without exception.
If I can't see the exact shot I want then I go home. I do a lot more scouting than shooting. I usually keep notes of each possible shot and I plan my shot in advance. I agree with Mr. Goldman that forced shots "are rotten without exception." Shooting just to be shooting is a waste of film and time. I think we have to get away from the idea that a trip is a failure without making exposures. It is necessary to turn down the many bad shots so that we can throughly prepare for the few good ones. You can't hit what you don't see. If you are seeing poorly then go home. Tomorrow will come soon enough.