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Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Has anybody tried marrying a Sinar shutter to a field camera and lived to tell about it? Could somebody give me the specific dimensions of a Sinar shutter and its weight? Are these things reliable? I know they're expensive. You know where this is going...
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Around 6x7inches, with a 3inch diameter opening.
Weight, around 550 grams.
Speeds: 8sec to 1/60th., very reliable.
There are older models without the side aperture scale mechanism. = less weight.
It's possible to front mount, but depends on your camera and lens combination.
Sidney
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Here are some snapshots of the shutter. One side attaches to the front of the bellows, while the other side attaches to the rear of the front standard. The shutter does not hold the lens board. It is the front standard, which holds the lens board. When you swing and tilt the front standard, the shutter, which is attached to the front standard, swings and tilts along with it. It is always parallel to the front standard.
My measurements are in inches, and I presume that the camera is made according to Metric measures, but these will give you the basic idea.
The male portion is a square of around 5.4 inches, and the female is a square of around 5.5 inches.
As you can see, there are ridges which act as baffles.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Sidney, merci, and Ken thank you for the images. A Packard would offer a larger shutter opening, but at the expense of exposure control. Oy.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
I was *very* tempted to do this to facilitate barrel lenses on a field camera, but when I saw the cost of the shutter and the work involved I realised I was better off investing in a shuttered lens and avoid the 'bargain barrels'.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
The field camera that shutter will fit on is called a ' Sinar-F '.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Will,
what kind of lens would you wish to shutter mount, and what is the format of your field camera?
Sidney
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark Sampson
The field camera that shutter will fit on is called a ' Sinar-F '.
I'm not sure if a Sinar F can be called a 'field camera'.
To my knowledge, field cameras are 'foldings', etc. ...
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
I paid $600 for my used Sinar P, including Sinar case and an additional extension rail. That was less than what one can pay for a new wooden field camera.
Even when you add the cost of a (used) Sinar shutter, it's still much less than I paid for a new Arca Swiss Discovery - a lovely camera, but lacking some of the geared and yaw-free movements, and also needing an extension rail to accommodate lenses longer than 210mm.
I just got a 360mm APO Nikkor for a terrific price, from another member of this forum. Mounting that lens in a shutter (if it can be done) would cost as much as the price of the Sinar shutter. Instead, I only needed a Technika board for it to sit on.
The Sinar shutter has allowed me to explore some lenses that I would have never considered. For example, I got a coated 190mm Bausch and Lomb Tessar lens, in barrel, for free. 190mm ? Funny length. It's now on a Technika board. It's an excellent lens, with superb blur and a round diaphragm that has more blades than I can count. On eBay, I got a 250mm coated Carl Zeiss Jena Tessar, in barrel, for a very good price. I put it on a Sinar board, and it's my favorite lens for portraits.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
www.skgrimes.com/fits/index.htm is a great resource to see what lens fits what shutter info.
C
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Carioca
Will,
what kind of lens would you wish to shutter mount, and what is the format of your field camera?
Sidney
Sidney,
I want to be able to use any of a number of older lenses mounted in barrels. I'm not looking to mount one lens into a shutter. I merely am looking for something a little more sophisticated than a Packard, although the Packard is hard to beat for my application. The camera format is 7x11 inches.
~Will
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Will,I adapted the Sinar shutter to my Calumet 8x10 (C-10) and made my own wooden lensboards for the barrel lenses. The shutter is very accurate. Vibration concerns, in my opinion, are not well founded. This shutter is a real pleasure to use after years with the Packard.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Merg Ross
Will,I adapted the Sinar shutter to my Calumet 8x10 (C-10) and made my own wooden lensboards for the barrel lenses. The shutter is very accurate. Vibration concerns, in my opinion, are not well founded. This shutter is a real pleasure to use after years with the Packard.
Merg,
This is an idea I have been toying with for a while, I think it would a a bit time consuming to get perfect out of the gate, but over the long term, a great solution once tweaked to perfection.
Was it fairly straight forward as projects go?
Ideally, to have the barrels mounted in a Tech V type boards, onto a home made adapter, using the Sinar shutter, or even a packard for those who wish to go that route, behind the adapter board sounds ideal.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Allen, make that a C-1 Calumet, I believe that is the correct nomenclature for the 8x10.
My inclination has been to modify my cameras with wood derived solutions first, and if that fails, seek a machine shop. This is probably because my first 8x10's were built of wood and easy to modify. Beauty never played a role in my solutions!. If you would like a pic of the Calumet/Sinar set-up, let me know.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Here was my solution to the Sinar Shutter. It is mounted on a Phillips 8x10 Compact II. I removed the aperture setting device and readout, shortened the lever to close the shutter and removed the sync jack. To attach the universal lens mount, I made a lens board that extended it away from the shutter about 1/2".
I got lucky with the shutter. I bought it from eBay at a time when there were a lot of people saying disparaging remarks about the vibration and drove the price down. I think I spent $200 and got 2 cable releases with it.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Merg and John, it's good to know that other folks have made the idea work. Having never even seen a Sinar shutter in the flesh, I found this reference at Cameraeccentric very helpful. I should have looked there sooner.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Thanks for posting that - Now I know where the filter holder is ! Duhhh
Shooting at wider apertures in full daylight can be a problem, because the Sinar shutter only goes up to 1/60. With a film like TMY at ISO 200, a neutral density filter is required, and I have had to hold it by hand up until now.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ken Lee
Now I know where the filter holder is!
Yes, it was very thoughtful of Sinar to include a filter holder. 1/60 isn't fast, but it's a stop better than a Packard on a good day - and hopefully more reliable.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Heavens... If you leave the shutter on the camera all the time, that means you only need only one set of filters (with the exception of polarizers).
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
This is how I modified the Sinar shutter to work on the Calumet C-1. It does not work from behind, as intended. However, it suits my way of working in the field and allows for myriad barrel lenses on easily made wooden boards. Three studs at the back of the shutter board (shutter is attached to Calumet board) hold filters in frames.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
That is, as the British would say... Brilliant !
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
John T's solution is quite elegant, with that universal lens mount.
I know you are trying to use it with a 7x11 camera but with a Sinar, a nice solution is to mount the shutter on an intermediate standard, adding another bellows in front of it and then you can mount the barrel lenses on standard Sinar boards rather than those funky DB mounts.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frank Petronio
John T's solution is quite elegant, with that universal lens mount.
I know you are trying to use it with a 7x11 camera but with a Sinar, a nice solution is to mount the shutter on an intermediate standard, adding another bellows in front of it and then you can mount the barrel lenses on standard Sinar boards rather than those funky DB mounts.
I've been fooling around with trying to design my own extention board with iris lens clamp. Your idea -- is so simple -- and so easy. Thank you!
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Sanders McNew showed me, and I am sure someone showed him before...
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John T
Here was my solution to the Sinar Shutter. It is mounted on a Phillips 8x10 Compact II. I removed the aperture setting device and readout, shortened the lever to close the shutter and removed the sync jack. To attach the universal lens mount, I made a lens board that extended it away from the shutter about 1/2".
....
John,
At max drop, can the shutter speed ring touch the camera body giving concern for possible damage in an accidental release of the front standard?
Thank you,
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Merg Ross
This is how I modified the Sinar shutter to work on the Calumet C-1. It does not work from behind, as intended. However, it suits my way of working in the field and allows for myriad barrel lenses on easily made wooden boards. Three studs at the back of the shutter board (shutter is attached to Calumet board) hold filters in frames.
Merg,
Thank you for posting. This is along the idea of what I was considering trying to patch together, I am hoping to use Tech V boards for space. I will attempt it on a Packard at first if I can find a deal, and then work it through on a more advanced shutter If I like the direction it is going.
Winter here is long, and cold January and February months are the perfect time to be on the darkroom and to tinker.
best regards,
Allen
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Certainly a less elegant solution, but it works well:
front mount of the shutter.
I had a custom made adapter machined, that screws into the rear of the sinar shutter.
With custom adapter rings, it can then be mounted to different barrel lenses, fixed with the three tightening screws.
Sidney
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
It looks pretty elegant to me !
If I were to design a new view camera from scratch, I would include "native support" for this sort of thing.
I would also figure out a way to take modern lenses out of their 5 and 8-bladed shutters, and use waterhouse stops instead. Who needs those pentagonal and octagonal diaphragms after all ?
That would combine the best of modern and "classical" technology.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Thanks Ken.
I had to opt for this solution since I'm shooting 'only' 4x5, and therefore no way to get the sinar shutter close to the front standart of my folding.
Regarding the iris, yes, waterhouse stops are great, can't figure out why with todays technology, it is impossible to build nice round diaphragms...
Other very round shaped solution, as someone once posted here, 'shoot f***ing wide open'.
:)
Sidney
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Allen,
It could. But to be honest, I don't know if I ever that a front standard drop accidentally. The Phillips locks down pretty snugly.
There is a lock mechanism on the camera that levels off the front standard so that you can do rise/fall without a tilt. This gets in the way of the shutter and that is way I mounted it upside down. It is also easier to see when the camera is placed at a high vantage point.
If you move the locking mechanism to the other side of the front standard, they this could be mounted right side up.
John
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
here is my wista 8x10 with sinar shutter, all I had to do was mounting it reverse (male side to camera).
a lens mounted flush with the lensboard like my ronar 600 fits directly onto the shutter, for lenses with protruding rear cells I use this wooden adapter that substantially puts an inch or so between the shutter and the back of the lens.
I am now working on having the big apo nikkor 610 in this setup.
attachments follow, first one is the nikkor 480 with the adapter, the other are of the ronar 600 setup.
andre
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
One more tip - when or if you locate a source for the extra throw cable releases needed by this shutter (Gepes are not long enough -- most people use the $100 Sinar ones) by all means get as many cable releases as you can afford.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Carioca
I'm not sure if a Sinar F can be called a 'field camera'.
To my knowledge, field cameras are 'foldings', etc. ...
there is an option with a sliding back but this has now been superceeded (and surpassed) by the arTec camera which is portable arTec camera specifications
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John T
....... I removed the aperture setting device and readout, shortened the lever to close the shutter and removed the sync jack........
Thank you John,
Can you tell us how easy or hard it was to remove the aperture portion of the shutter?
It looks like Merg has done this too?
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bardamu
.....first one is the nikkor 480 with the adapter.....
andre
I just picked up a Nikkor apo 480 this weekend too, looking forward to seeing what it can do. I will play with a Packard first and then venture into the perhaps the Sinar later.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Who can service these Sinar shutters? I have one, but it is dead. It will cock, but the release doesn't move the blades. Which is sort of the idea.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Pretty sure Precision Camera Works (Bob Watkins) can. He used to work for Sinar before Arca, he works on both.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
we can do servicing / repair on all sinar cameras.
however I have detailed technical drawings and setup/adjustment proceedures which I have made into pdf's- too big to post here. These include component parts data and image2output can supply the components for those proficient enough.- email the required partnumber and contact details to sales@image2output.com.
if anyyone wants specific data please email me direct and I will give them a download location for the partlists/drawings
Some current product data I have included under the specific products on the image2output site.
p3 for example
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
I have one, but it is dead. It will cock, but the release doesn't move the blades.
Mine gets into this state, when the little doo-hickey needs to move, but can't - because a lens or board comes too close to the front of the shutter.
If that's the case, then it is easy to fix. If you look at the second photo I have posted - the male side of the shutter - you will see a red dot at the bottom of the unit. Just above that, there is a pin which slides along a curved path.
If you move that pin, gently, along that path (counter-clock-wise in the photo), you will hear a click. Once that has happened, you should be able to cock and trip the shutter normally again.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Ken,
Could be physically possible, even with a touch of work, to mount and recessed board in reverse and use that on lenses where the rear interferes with the shutter?
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Remember that the boards have grooves, in order to create a light trap, or baffle. I don't know if you can mount them in reverse.
When I used a 360mm Heliar, the rear of the lens extended backwards, too much, towards the shutter. I had to add a ring to the front of the lens board (between the lens ring and the lens board) so that the lens would not go too far towards the shutter. I paid a machine shop to make me the extra ring.
If you want to get creative, there are many possibilities.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Image2output provide service to all Sinar equipment. However all the component spare parts are also available from those able to use them.
The drawings and adjustment proceedures are avaialble but too large to post here- its a library.
Some detailed technical data is included on the image2output.com site under the relevent product if its still current e.g.
click here for an example of downloadable details
I can provide most other specific assembly drawings on request- email me directly
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
Here is my solution to mount my Sinar shutter on every camera wich can take a Sinar board!
My Burke & James had already a Sinar lensboard adapter, so I in my case used 2 Sinar boards front to front with a distance of 1 cm on one side was the modern Sinar board on the other should be the very old Norma board or in my case it was the cheap Novak Sinar board wich fits perfectly on the shutter.
To the front of the shutter I used the frame only from a back standard it could also be from a front standard only the frame of it!
So now I can putt every Sinar lensboard on my Burke & James and I can use this on every camera which fits a Sinar board!
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
well done Armin, this way you can use sinar db mount lenses also, right?
can you show some detail of the two lensboards and how you joined them? how large did you have to drill the opening? what's the weight of this setup with the spare sinar front frame?
thank you
Andre
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
"well done Armin, this way you can use sinar db mount lenses also, right? "
Yes this ist correct and its anyway the best fastest und easiest way in my opinion an I can use any Sinar HLV now not only this one also my older one!
Okay the opening is 85mm on the lensboards so non vignetting can happen, and it is important thad you not take a new Sinar lensboard on one side! The whole setup including shutter is 1,2 Kg.
Pictures will follow after I'm back from Photokina in Köln!
Have a good time Armin
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
several of these solutions appear to limit front tilts, if so, how much limitation and how do you manage a workaround?
My Chamonix 8x10 (with a Sinar compatible lensboard) looses all possible forward/backward tilts with the Sinar (Norma) Copal shutter attached. I think I could construct an extension similar to Armin's, with a deeper offset, but I'd like to explore all options.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
this will probably end up as a silly question, but...
I am wondering if db mount lenses like the one attached can be used on my setup ( http://www.largeformatphotography.in...949#post393949 ) when a spacer is mounted between the shutter and the lensboard.
I don't know how these lenses work, but it seems to me that they have a rear pin that should interact with the shutter in some way. If that's right, I guess there must be a fixed distance between this kind of lens and the sinar shutter.
thank you for your help
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
You need to look at the front of the board too. "DBM" lenses have a manual override of the aperture linkage and can be used like any other lens in barrel. "DB" lenses can only stop down the aperture using the linkage from the shutter assembly: these ones need to be the correct distance in front of the shutter (and they won't work with the Norma era shutters either).
DBM lenses usually have a distinctive pale grey band with the aperture numbers written on it, with a prominent red button.
A google image search on "Sinar DBM" turns up useful pictures. I don't want to link to any since they are mostly on eBay and will vanish quite soon.
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Re: Sinar Shutter on Field Camera
You ned the frame of a Frontstandard or a backstandard they are as a frame identically, and then you have the correct distance!
Cheers Armin