An open letter to Ron Wisner

As I have been waiting for a very long time for a refund from Wisner for a returned product, I am now publishing an open letter to Ron Wisner. It is my hope that Mr. Wisner will finally honor his original commitment for a full refund of the purchase price.

My open letter to Mr. Wisner is published at my personal website. Once the issue is resolved this letter will be redrawn from public view.

www.vinberg.nu/pages/lettertowisner2005-07.htm

Heard similar stories many times which is precisely why he needs to scale back to a smaller factory. He is one bad businessman.

I`m sorry you have neither your refund or camera. Bummer. Pay by credit card next time and you can always reverse the payment yourself.

I bought a Zone 6 and am very happy with it.

If this is the type of service one can expect from Wisner, then it appears the LF community would be better served to take their purchases elsewhere.

Thanks for letting us know.

Lars buddy, $4200 for an 8x10 camera back in 2002? What were you thinking?

In any case, I hope you resolve your problems. How did you pay for this camera? If you paid by mail, the US takes Mail fraud very serious, even if it is International mail. OTOH here are addresses to other sites, you better get busy and post your public letter in them. It seems the only way you can force Wisner to give the money back, given that this is not the first time we hear a similar story.

www.apug.com

www.photo.net

I have nothing against Wisner and I hope his re structuring does his reputation a world of good, but there is no reason or excuse to hold a refund for 2 years for a camera I am sure he has already sold to another person. I am amazed at his lack of integrity and at the patience some of you have shown. I would have taken a plane and been on his ass like stink on s***.

Word of advice to the new LF guys in this forum, you want a Wisner camera, get it from Emile or from Quality Camera, it is not worth the hassle to get it from Wisner direct.

Personally I would take him to small claims and be done with it.
After two years I highly doubt he has any intention of a refund, nor intimidated by an open letter.
His business reputation is already slumping so he most likely won't give a damn about the letter, but at least you are exposing his biz practices to enlighten others.
File a small claims when you get back to the states. Maybe find out if you can do it in LA or SF to make him appear there.
I don't know law pertaining to that aspect, but sounds like you would be done with this and win hands down.

BTW, nice seeing you at Per's last month...
Regards, Matt

We have made some major changes at the Wisner Company as many of you know. This includes cleaning up old business and obligations. We have finished many orders and sent many refunds and will clean up every last refund or order on our books. If you look at our website or talk to our dealers you will find that we voluntarily stopped taking orders (much to the dissapointment of many customers ) in May and will not accept new orders until all old business is completed.

Going to court (might or might not be small claims depending on the jurisdictional limits of the relevant court) probably wouldn't do anything for you even if you were able to get a default judgment. It might allow you to place a lien on the business assets assuming he keeps doing business through the same corporate entity he's been using but he's probably smart enough to not do that. And even if you're able to place a lien on the business assets I suspect there are lenders or other lien holders who would come ahead of you so it's not likely you could force a sale of some of the assets and get any money, plus you'd be involved in some potentially lengthy and complex legal proceedings.

You might try contacting a collection agency and see if they'd take it for a percentage of any recovery. But in truth, I don't think there's a lot of hope of getting your money back. If I were you I'd try to negotiate a deal where he gave you a new camera in satisfaction of your claim, then you could at least sell it on ebay. Why should he be out there making cameras to fill back orders for other people while you sit there with nothing?

Mr. Vineberg will not need any help getting his money. We are prepared to give his refund TODAY as soon as he writes back with the expiration date for his card, which has expired. This applies to ANY other customer who has unfinished business with us. Immeditate refund.
We have been going over our books and systematically shipping product or making refunds, which ever is preferred by the customer or faster.

Just to be clear, the following notice was posted on our website some time ago. Although refunds are not mentioned (most order have not required them) this policy includes all obligations:

Notice: No new orders will be accepted until Sept.1st, 05. This decision has resulted in some speculation about the company, so we have decided to explain here. We elected not to accept new orders starting in May pending the fulfillment of all old orders. This decision has resulted in some disappointed customers who did not mind the long waiting lists. Nevertheless, our decision is to clear the orders and start fresh.

This will not effect warranty support, and we will continue to supply basic accessories like lens boards, but no other orders will be accepted.

I invite any customer to contact me if we have overlooked you. Your issue will be handled with utmost dispatch.

Ron Wisner

Mr. Wisner,

Why didn't you just cut a refund check to Vinberg since you keep the "book" and have his address? Do you sleep very well every night? Don't play the game, be a MAN.

The legal system ie. small claims court is your best option preferably in the geographical area where he does business. Unfortunately, international customers are at a disadvantage in these situations unless you take matters in your own hands. With the emphasis of doing this as inexpensively as possible I would find out how to legally assign agency of your claim to a local lawyer and run this up the flag pole as expediently as is possible. I also feel that it is very reasonable to attempt to collect interest to offset some of the unintentinal currency risk you incurred during this process.

Word is that after selling his building and coming into some money now is the time to get this done. It is very sad to see these course of events taking place. Several years ago I told Ron on this forum that if he did not change his ways it was only a matter of time until other camera makers that understand customer service would erode his sales to the point where it would take him out of the game. All I heard from him at the time were excuses about how hard it is to get good workers or how difficult it is to juggle the enormous demand and continue to bring out new products. Complete denial of the issues at hand and a continuation of the poker table business practices. Collect money on future orders from people that should know better, promise the moon to the pleading clients and hope that there is enough cash flow to make payroll and pay the rest of the bills.

People like Ron that have this personality type continue to look for external factors to blame for the sequence of events that take place rather than taking personal responsibility for the fact that you should not say one thing and do another. He is the reason that his business is at risk and we in the LF community are the ones that suffer. An extension of this mentality will blame the demise of film or needing a rest of something for his departure from the game hoping that customers will be pleading with him to make them a camera and once again - front the continuation of his "new" business with pay ahead orders. Not a good thing before and surely not one in the future.

The LF industry will survive quite well without him for as long as he decides to be a victum. Maybe one of these days he will buy a full length mirror and start looking into it on regular intervals.

Keep us posted on your efforts to get your refund!

Onward!

Thank you all for you advice and support. Mr. Wisner has contacted me in order to resolve this issue ASAP.

As soon as this issue is closed I will of course notify this forum. Meanwhile, please do not post more advice on legal action, I feel that to be completely unneccessary. I have no doubt about Wisner's good intentions - sometimes we all need a nudge or two in the right direction.

Michael,

I am happy to disabuse you of several or your assumptions. First, I certainly do not feel like a victim. I am very happy with my decision to downsize after 22 years and do some other things that have been on my list. Nothing makes me happier than taking care of old obligations so I can move on.

It is true that the orders got out of hand, which is why in the future I will only take orders that I can build in a reasonable time. And contrary to your futher speculation, we will no longer take deposits. I am sorry to say that in the last two months I have turned down dozens of orders from customers with cash in hand, some from our dealers, many from existing customers. They accept that they will have to wait.

Finally the "word" about anything regarding my finances is pure conjecture. I am looking forward to my new building being finished, and a smaller, simpler business.

Best regards
Ron

The question Mr. Wisner is why you have not refunded his check in two years, you seem to dance around that very nicely.
Best Wishes to the Both of you,

Because I am a disorganized businessman. I do recall that we attempted once but there was a problem in the transaction; a wrong card number or date or the address didn't match. I can't remember now. Perhaps Mr. Vinberg will remember. In any case, I am glad to get this cleared up.

Ron

On a lighter note, and perhaps a biased one: I have met Ron on many occasions and been to his factory. I own one of his cameras and have ordered accessories from him before, without problem. If one has been to his factory and met him and his employees, one would know that Ron makes LF cameras out of love and not profit. The amount of work that goes into making one of his cameras is amazing. I didn't see any CNC equipment when I went there, just employees with 100 year-old equipment making old-fashion cameras the old-fashion way. His employees seemed happy, as I'm sure are most of his customers. Everyone makes mistakes (some that last a long time), but as long as they are ultimately rectified, and steps are taken to ensure that the same problems do not recur, all should be forgiven.

Ron,
When you get situated in your new building, make some ground glass protectors! I know that many of us are still trying to get them for 11x14 cameras, and Quality Camera tells me they have had some on order for a long time- two years in fact. These are the kind of details you must pay attention to in order to keep us happy; and lens boards-very hard to come by. We would all appreciate the protectors for or cameras, and extra business for you; a win-win situation.

Ron:

It is a truly exceptional individual that accepts professional criticism within the context that it is offered. Fact is that successful people get to where they are not by continuing to do what comes easy for them but by understanding their weaknesses and methodologically working on each aspect to measured improvements.

You are clearly a very ingenius camera designer. For that we in the LF community are graced beyond our wildest expectations with your capabilities.

But as someone that decided long ago to meld this skill set with a manufacturing, marketing and customer service enterprise I can honestly say that over the last eight years that I have been following the LF comunity you have regularly broken every possible rule of prudent business operation. In other words your business skill set really sucks with a capital S. Your willingness to continue to use your camera business as a sacrificial anode to your personal designing, innovating and ancillary pursuits has been a disappointment to say the least. We are a very small community in large format and this ends up hurting us all.

I learned my business skills the hard way and can only tell you that if you do not make a personal decision to let someone else that has the right skill set handle your customer service and customer interface in the future, you will have a very difficult time making ends meet upon re-organization. You should focus singularly on seminars, educational pursuits and creative designing which clearly are your strengths. Do youself and all of us a favor and stand aside and let someone else do the day to day stuff and answer the phone.

Looking forward to a re-visit this subject in the fall.

Here is to hoping that you can in fact pull this rabbit out of your hat!

Cheers

Lars has got to be the most patient man I have ever heard of!

"Because I am a disorganized businessman"
You got it Ron and you really should change exactly that point otherwise your bussines will go down the river like Kodak's!
Good luck in finding a good organiser for your company!

Ron,

The correct course of action here would be to cut a check immediately followed by a letter of apology. Being a "disorganized" businessman is not a good excuse. I think you have done harm to your business.

Regards,

Greg

Ron has always been straight up with me. Admittedly, I was always a small (4x5) customer and I bought my dearly missed camera from a dealer (Del's, who appearently also had issues). The good news is that my beloved Tech is much closer to the home of her birth. Of course, I can't even begin to contemplate the 12"x20", but I'm sure she would be very nice.

Well done Lars - seems like making this public was the only way to get your hard-earned cash back after so long, and that's a crying shame. The only way I'll ever buy a Wisner is via anyone else other than the maker. I hope your trouble, time and material loss are reflected in the refund.

Regards,
Neil.

Apparently Lars was not the only one in the past who had trouble buying a camera from Ron Wisner.

I was thinking about purchasing an 11 x 14 from him. But now I think that would be a very bad idea.

I will stick with my Zone VI and Phillips 8 x 10 cameras. Both are well made and do a very nice job indeed!

It is great to see Ron Wisner making good here, and we should be encouraging him, not dinging him for getting his act together. Good luck Ron.

I find it amusing that Mr. Wisner would dare to " disabuse" Michael of " several assumptions".
Considering that Michael has a brand new 8x20 reducing back being repaired I believe that he has earned the right to his assumptions. Mr. Kadillak was too much of a gentleman to mention this in his post.

If Wisner would pay Mr. Kadillak's repair bill for his (Wisners) shoddy workmanship, then perhaps one could see a change.

I have to agree with Frank on this one...

Ron, here's your chance to demonstrate your integrity and refund any monies owing to the good folks who have entrusted you to come through. It's do or die time and I, for one, sincerely hope that you follow through on your word.

Remember, a mans word is all that he truly has and he'll be judged accordingly.

In addition to the above, I've also posted the following comment on another site...

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Cxji

Let's keep our fingers crossed in the hope that he comes through!

Ron,

There's a few of us here that are encouraging you to "do the right thing." This is all about us supporting and encouraging you.

Please don't let us down! :)

Cheers

Hey Jim!

You are very correct about my new camera back being repaired. Through Jeff Wheeler, a very professional and gracious intermediary, Ron did make an offer to make the repairs. However, considering the fact that: 1) I did not want to accept the risk that the back would for a fact be back in my hands this year and 2) Richard Ritter mentioned that a normal portion of his business is performing repairs on new and used Wisner cameras (including another out of spec reducing back within the last 30 days) I opted for the former.

I know for a fact that I can trust Richard Ritter. The best word I could come up for Ron was "hope". Unfortunately, hope will not do a damn thing for me in LF.

Don't get me wrong Frank, I am all for being reasonable and encouraging in the hope that a ray of light will hit home and a new chapter in the book will render the preceding dialog redundant. But lets be real. If for whatever reason it was your cash on the line with ANY non performing counterparty you would be as hot as an annealing furnace in a steel mill.

Talk is cheap. Lets see what happens this fall with real life executables. Nothing else really matters.

Onward!

Lars:

After holding your money for more than two years without rendering you any value in return, Wisner also owes you substantial interest.

If you are willing to lend him $4,200.00 interest free for >two years, will you do the same for me? I can't find any banks around here who will.

I hope Ron gets it together in this downsizing, because his product is great (I own a 4x5 Technical and would consider getting an 8x10).

Go for it Ron. Hire some hotshot business manager. Good luck.

I was considering purchasing one of his cameras. FORGET IT! I've been in business over twenty years and I have never knowingly cheated anyone in product or money and not honored it immeadiatly!

You deserve to lose your business and others in the hobby should be made aware of your questionable, purely underhanded and intentional tactics to defraud others!

I love happy endings...
What about this end?

Mr. Wisner notified my on Sunday that he had initiated the refund. I just checked with my bank (today is Wednesday), and the refund has been credited to my account.

This issue has now been resolved, and my open letter has been removed from posting. While I cannot say that my dealings with Mr. Wisner have been completely satisfactory, I wish him good luck in his future business. I know that Mr. Wisner can build very fine cameras given his own timeline (a true craftsman!), and I hope that he can keep focusing on that.

- Lars

That's a Happy Ending!!!
Thank you Lars

That's a Happy Ending!!!
Thank you Lars (and Ron)

How about we all take a deep breath and ease up on Mr. Wisner, shall we?

I'm sure that many of the folks posting to this forum understand the theory behind operating a business and it's many details. Unfortunately, theory and practice often part ways, and to some, criticism of another's business practices comes far to easy and with a heavy hand. Furthermore, it seems this post has turned into more of a Ron-bashing episode then an actual problem solving think-tank.

I am by no means exonerating Ron Wisner's lapses. But refusing to recognize his "lapses" for what they truly are, opting rather to attack Mr. Wisner's integrity and character for the sake of venting personal frustration is not only unjust but also does very little if anything to bring our dear colleage any closer to procurring his rightful dues.

I truly feel for anyone who has had to wait 2 years (omg!) for a refund. It does suck. But it does not make Ron Wisner a scoundrel or a fraud. Need I remind anyone how long Mr. Wisner has been in the business of providing us all with the finest in LF cameras? Do we simply disregard his years of service to our community because of lapses in his business practices as of recent?

Surely the foregoing makes for a judgement that is anything but even-handed.

I think Ron Wisner is wrong for having made people wait so long for what is rightfully theirs. I think it's irresponsible and quite frankly, lousy business. But I also believe that Mr. Wisner has gotten the message loud and clear.

So what say we put away the baseball bat and give the guy a chance to make ammends? Lest he who is without sin cast the first stone!

Cheers
Daniel Balfour