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Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Did I miss something? At the end of last week I could have purchased a 50 sheet box of Kodak T-Max 400 (4x5) for $85 from B&H. In the next day or so, I start seeing ads from B&H saying that $85 is the sale price and the retail price is $99.95. On Sunday I go to place an order, and the price is $109.95! Now I'm seeing ads from B&H that shows $109.95 as the "sale" price with the retail price now at $128.94!
I always expect that film and paper prices are going to go up, but up by over 50% in less than a week? That kind of increase starts to make me nervous.
I have noticed that B&H is also increasing prices on Ilford films and papers also, just not quite as big as that TMY increase.
What happened?
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Supply+demand+overhead costs (taxes, materials, labor...)
I'm watching the situation and wondering if it will become profitable for a domestic competitor to appear. Given the capital investment needed, uncertainty of future demand, I think prices will have to go much higher first. I've only been shooting since 2007 and even I can remember $1/sheet for TMY 4x5.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Try clearing your browser history or better yet, check the price from a computer that had not looked for that item using your account if you were using one. I would be interested to know if they are storing your searches.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Yep, that is what I thought. I looked and Kodak T-Max 50 sheets is $85. I may have to start dealing with another distributor.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
I checked Freestyle and their price is 109.95 for 50 sheets.
m
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Cienfuegos
I checked Freestyle and their price is 109.95 for 50 sheets.
m
That's up $15 from their price last week also.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
$97 for me. I am telling ya, try it anonymously and from a clean computer. They are putting cookies and trackers on your system that keeps records of what you look at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
k_redder
That's up $15 from their price last week also.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jmarmck
$97 for me. I am telling ya, try it anonymously and from a clean computer. They are putting cookies and trackers on your system that keeps records of what you look at.
You are looking at TMX (Tmax 100). I'm talking about TMY (Tmax 400), currently showing $109.99 at both Freestyle and B&H.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
some call it the best film on the market and worth every penny they charge.
only 10 maybe 13 years ago it was 65$ shipped for 100 sheet boxes .. and
100 sheets from pw were 25$ ...
times change
there is a film being being made as we type this thread which will cost 300$/ 50 sheets ..
photography has never been for those with very little money ( even on the 1800s )
the first kodak cameras cost hundreds / several month wage in the 1880s ...
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
My bad. Still check the browser for cookies. This is a common practice for hotel and airline booking sites. I have heard that some of the major retailers are doing this too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
k_redder
You are looking at TMX (Tmax 100). I'm talking about TMY (Tmax 400), currently showing $109.99 at both Freestyle and B&H.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
$109.99 at Freestyle for me. I've never visited their site.
Nate Potter, Austin TX.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Id be curious to know why the cost has increased if anyone has the answer.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pawlowski6132
Id be curious to know why the cost has increased if anyone has the answer.
Decreased volume. As the volume of boxes declines, they have fewer boxes to spread their fixed costs of manufacturing over. Those costs can't be reduced -- the coating line and the building can't be reduced.
It's still the best film ever made, and it's going to be the last B&W film design brought to market. TMY is the end of the road. Over a hundred years of continuous improvements have lead to this. It's awesome. I'm definitely going to miss it when it's gone.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
I would suspect they are not making anymore, and since the remaining stock is owned by a retirement fund, the way to maximise value is to increase prices and to keep increasing them. If they were still making it, they would have a strong interest in competing with other film manufacturers.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruce Watson
Decreased volume. As the volume of boxes declines, they have fewer boxes to spread their fixed costs of manufacturing over. Those costs can't be reduced -- the coating line and the building can't be reduced.
It's still the best film ever made, and it's going to be the last B&W film design brought to market. TMY is the end of the road. Over a hundred years of continuous improvements have lead to this. It's awesome. I'm definitely going to miss it when it's gone.
You know for a fact volume is down?
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mdm
I would suspect they are not making anymore, and since the remaining stock is owned by a retirement fund, the way to maximise value is to increase prices and to keep increasing them. If they were still making it, they would have a strong interest in competing with other film manufacturers.
I bet your suspicions are incorrect, if they are not making TMY anymore then they are not making anything because TMY in 4x5 sells very very well.
I love TMY so much I sold all my Tri-X stash so I could by more in 35, 120 and 4x5. Also, not that I am running low, I just ordered 4 boxes from Adorama for $84 each, obviously that won't last...
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
[QUOTE=jnanian;1117616]some call it the best film on the market and worth every penny they charge.
only 10 maybe 13 years ago it was 65$ shipped for 100 sheet boxes .. and
100 sheets from pw were 25$ ...
times change
Consider this, what was your annual income 10 maybe 13 years ago? We have inflation..........the film makers do as well!! Pay for the film and be thankful they still produce it......
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DG 3313
Consider this, what was your annual income 10 maybe 13 years ago? We have inflation..........the film makers do as well!! Pay for the film and be thankful they still produce it......
perhaps you should read what i wrote ?
kodak raises their prices by 15% a year, and have done it for decades ...
( yes, even before they went bankrupt )
did i say i wasn't thankful for the film?
or film makers don't do well ?
did i say i didn't buy it ?
i said it is expensive ? and other film at the time, was less expensive ( not available )
TODAY... ilford film is 1/2 the price ..
are YOU paid, paid more than than 2x -3x the amount you were paid in 1991 ( for the same amount of work) ?
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Kodak just priced themselves out of my film freezer. I could afford to continue shooting TMY-2 if I wanted to given how little I get to shoot, but given the price difference, I no longer want to. My next order will be for HP5+. Another film to calibrate but oh well - easy enough and support those who support you.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
I was considering specializing in TMY-2 for my night work and gravitating away from ACROS100 as the price was better and similar in reciprocity for 20+ minute exposures etc, not he same but similar enough. Even if I enjoy the spectral response of Acros100, if I could use TMY-2 for night shots I could also use TMY-2 for normal shots and essentially use it for everything, but I have to be practical too, and night shots aren't that often, so, as Roger is doing, I've decided on HP5+ which is also amazing and flexible, and "cheap" in comparison, I just hope it stays that way...
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Roger Cole
Kodak just priced themselves out of my film freezer. I could afford to continue shooting TMY-2 if I wanted to given how little I get to shoot, but given the price difference, I no longer want to. My next order will be for HP5+. Another film to calibrate but oh well - easy enough and support those who support you.
This is where I find myself too. I don't shoot that much either, so the extra money isn't the end of the world, but for me this is a hobby (albeit a very serious one) and I don't have an endless amount of money to spend on materials. As of today, 100 sheets of FP4 will cost $125 and 100 sheets of TMY will cost $220 (and I suspect that going even higher, see original post). That $95 could buy me a box of paper, or maybe a whole years worth of chemistry. It is a meaningful amount of money to me and my particular circumstances. So I'm also going to take this opportunity to jump ship and switch to Ilford film. Also, and I don't have any particular evidence to support this but, if I were a betting man I'd put my money on Ilford to be be the one still standing when Kodak decides to give up the ghost. So there's that consideration.
To all of the other responses, I'm guessing that we all know that analog photography was never cheap, I understand the concepts of supply and demand, inflation and such (and, no, my salary has decidedly NOT kept pace with the price of film, thank you Mr. President). I accept that prices will creep ever upwards, I was just wondering if there was some particular event causing prices to go up so much in such a short span of time. That, I suppose, will remain a mystery.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
k_redder
This is where I find myself too. I don't shoot that much either, so the extra money isn't the end of the world, but for me this is a hobby (albeit a very serious one) and I don't have an endless amount of money to spend on materials. As of today, 100 sheets of FP4 will cost $125 and 100 sheets of TMY will cost $220 (and I suspect that going even higher, see original post). That $95 could buy me a box of paper, or maybe a whole years worth of chemistry. It is a meaningful amount of money to me and my particular circumstances. So I'm also going to take this opportunity to jump ship and switch to Ilford film. Also, and I don't have any particular evidence to support this but, if I were a betting man I'd put my money on Ilford to be be the one still standing when Kodak decides to give up the ghost. So there's that consideration.
To all of the other responses, I'm guessing that we all know that analog photography was never cheap, I understand the concepts of supply and demand, inflation and such (and, no, my salary has decidedly NOT kept pace with the price of film, thank you Mr. President). I accept that prices will creep ever upwards, I was just wondering if there was some particular event causing prices to go up so much in such a short span of time. That, I suppose, will remain a mystery.
I'm guessing Kodak-Alaris sat down and did the math finally... Just as Fuji has...
I'm willing to bet, that Ilford has figured out that by keeping their prices where they are, many many many of the previous Kodak users would switch, given the price hikes, and that the offset of the amount of people that are switching is helping to keep the price down because their numbers of production /purchases are actually increasing... At some point this will level off, at which time the Ilford prices will probably go up a little bit, but being that the purchases are still going to be at a higher rate, the price comparatively to Kodak would be still better.
I would also bet, that if Kodak can hold out long enough, they will be able to soak up all of the Fuji film shooters when Fuji stops producing film, the fact that the Fuji users are used to paying higher prices for film would mean that they wouldn't mind paying higher prices for Kodak as a substitute. And it would also be more than likely to purchase TMY-2 at the higher price because of it's spectacular reciprocity failure rate, or lack thereof as a substitute for Acros100.
So there is still hope for Kodak if they can hold out long enough to take the fall off from Fuji.
Only time will tell, but in reality it seems sadly that Fuji will probably cease production of film way efore Kodak does despite all of these seemingly gloomy price hikes.
But in the meantime Ilford reap the benefits of Kodak's price hikes...
These are all just my opinions based on observation and understanding of patterns of behavior, so it's just an opinion as my signature says I could be wrong...
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
I've got about a 4 year hoard of tmy2 in the sizes I use. So if it goes up 15% a year, I'm ahead about 40% if the film is still available and I'm in a position or inclination to keep buying it. 15% a year is better than I'd get in most investments these days. I'll replenish if it goes on sale rather than be at the mercy of any market. Ilford is good stuff too. I use both.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jp498
I've got about a 4 year hoard of tmy2 in the sizes I use. So if it goes up 15% a year, I'm ahead about 40% if the film is still available and I'm in a position or inclination to keep buying it. 15% a year is better than I'd get in most investments these days. I'll replenish if it goes on sale rather than be at the mercy of any market. Ilford is good stuff too. I use both.
And I have an unopened box of 4x5, I forget the date but I've had it probably a bit over a year as I haven't used up the last box as quickly as I expected, refrigerated since purchase, that I'm now thinking of selling. If I'm switching to HP5+ anyway I could probably get enough for the TMY-2 to buy some HP5+ and just get started. Well, sort of, since it's a 50 sheet box and Ilford is sold in 25 and 100 sheet boxes, but you get the idea.
Interestingly enough, 120 film still seems to be priced close enough to Ilford as to make no difference so I'll probably stay with TX for my 400 MF film (and I switched to FP4+ for medium speed when Plus-X went away.)
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jp498
I've got about a 4 year hoard of tmy2 in the sizes I use. So if it goes up 15% a year, I'm ahead about 40% if the film is still available and I'm in a position or inclination to keep buying it. 15% a year is better than I'd get in most investments these days. I'll replenish if it goes on sale rather than be at the mercy of any market. Ilford is good stuff too. I use both.
+1, if I ordered 20 boxes at the current price, I will still be below $95 a box for an average unit cost due to what I have in my freezer, not a big deal for what is about the best black and white film ever made. And to all the others on here that think a total ship jump to Ilford is going to insulate them from paying a lot more for film in the future, you are dreaming and don't have a very reasonable outlook on business.
Is it really that much more fun to come up with anti-Kodak conspiracy theories than go out and hone your skills as a photo enthusiast? It sure seems that way...people on here love to bitch and complain, I applaud Kodak for doing what they have to in order to keep making it, I'm sure going to keep buying it.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Oh ptui. I don't think it's going to "insulate me from paying a lot more from film in the future" but I do think it will have me paying a lot less for film NOW than otherwise. Bottom line is that, for my work, I really won't be able to tell the difference in the final print between HP5+ and TMY-2 so why the hell should I pay nearly twice as much when I don't have to? THAT is the bottom line.
No conspiracy theories here, just hard nosed economic realism. I can get a product that's as good for the vast majority of my work* for a lot less money so why wouoldn't or shouldn't I?
*The exception being long low light exposures of which...well come to think of it I've never done ANY in LF, just MF - I've done a few seconds in LF but at that range HP5+ will still do nicely.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Interesting, I think that the grain and sharpness on TMY is even better than Delta 100 let alone HP5, I guess it all depends on what you are looking for, I often print at 16x20 and I see a difference there. I'm probably set for 5 years for TMY in 4x5 at this rate though, I seem to go through it at a ratio of 1:3 to TMX in 4x5. 120 and 35mm is another story, pretty much my standard film.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Oh the grain is better. I can't see the grain from HP5 at a 4x enlargement / 16x20 from 4x5. If you can, well it might make a difference. Grain is just something that doesn't matter to me in 4x5 (within reason, I'm sure if they made Delta 3200 in 4x5 I might see it when shot at 3200 or so, or maybe if I pushed HP5+ to 1600 or whatever.)
If one routinely prints larger than 20x24 then it would make a difference. I'm not set up to print larger than 16x20.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
It is Ilford who I am upset with. What I do not understand is why Ilford film in the US is very nearly half the price that it is in the UK.
25 sheets of FP4+ 4x5 at B&H New York $32.95. At $1.67 to the pound that is £19.70.
25 sheets of FP4+ 4x5 at Ag Photographic in Birmingham is £38.49 This seems to be typical though I do note Morris Photographic Centre has it at £32.95. Which is the best price I have found in the UK. At Calumet the price is £41 and that is plus Vat in that case. Alright we do have VAT at 20 % which you do not have but even still that does not even come close to explaining the price differential.
I am forced to conclude that Ilford are taking the p*** and ripping off UK customers.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jnanian
perhaps you should read what i wrote ?
kodak raises their prices by 15% a year, and have done it for decades ...
( yes, even before they went bankrupt )
did i say i wasn't thankful for the film?
or film makers don't do well ?
did i say i didn't buy it ?
i said it is expensive ? and other film at the time, was less expensive ( not available )
TODAY... ilford film is 1/2 the price ..
are YOU paid, paid more than than 2x -3x the amount you were paid in 1991 ( for the same amount of work) ?
We all do what is right for us. I was speaking of how I look at the price increase. I do not take pictures for a living. I only buy film twice a year (maybe). So, I pay for fresh film when I need it and look for expired sheet film to play with. I understand the pinch a PRO would have by the increase in cost of the raw material.
1991 was a long time ago.........everything has gone up in price since then. Yes, I am paid 2x to 3x more now than I was in 1991. I am not a professional photographer.
That's all I was saying, sorry to offend
Don
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kodachrome25
+1, if I ordered 20 boxes at the current price, I will still be below $95 a box for an average unit cost due to what I have in my freezer, not a big deal for what is about the best black and white film ever made. And to all the others on here that think a total ship jump to Ilford is going to insulate them from paying a lot more for film in the future, you are dreaming and don't have a very reasonable outlook on business.
Is it really that much more fun to come up with anti-Kodak conspiracy theories than go out and hone your skills as a photo enthusiast? It sure seems that way...people on here love to bitch and complain, I applaud Kodak for doing what they have to in order to keep making it, I'm sure going to keep buying it.
In all fairness, if you are ordering film 20 boxes at a time, your financial considerations are probably quite a bit different from mine.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
To purchase my hoard, I stopped buying DSLR lenses and accessories (what I have is functional), and mostly stopped buying LF glass and cameras unless something came up that was irresistable like the verito for $100 and stayed out of the for sale forum here. I've also stopped buying ammo as it's gotten expensive. I am paid decently but don't have satellite/cable TV, don't have expensive unhealthy vices, don't drink much, don't travel far for vacation, etc..
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Exactly, cut all foolish expenses and many things are possible. I now live on 25% of my former salary. It's been hard to adapt. But if I want something, like film, I get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jp498
To purchase my hoard, I stopped buying DSLR lenses and accessories (what I have is functional), and mostly stopped buying LF glass and cameras unless something came up that was irresistable like the verito for $100 and stayed out of the for sale forum here. I've also stopped buying ammo as it's gotten expensive. I am paid decently but don't have satellite/cable TV, don't have expensive unhealthy vices, don't drink much, don't travel far for vacation, etc..
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
k_redder
In all fairness, if you are ordering film 20 boxes at a time, your financial considerations are probably quite a bit different from mine.
Yep, it's also a tax deduction which helps.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
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Originally Posted by
Kodachrome25
Yep, it's also a tax deduction which helps.
Yeah you can say that again, it's about the only good thing about being an artist is all the things you can expense legally, however if you're like me you don't make very much....
I only made roughly $35,000 last year, but got $3,000 back from photo deductions/expenses.
Of course unfortunately now with that new law I'm going to have to pay taxes on that money, but such is life... If I get back at lease the same amount I'll be able to pick up the camera I want to buy, and then I can write off that money at least...
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Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Randy Moe
Exactly, cut all foolish expenses and many things are possible. I now live on 25% of my former salary. It's been hard to adapt. But if I want something, like film, I get it.
Who's to say what's foolish though? My wife and I travel a fair amount (domestically and almost entirely by car) and get a lot out of it. It's expensive but I don't consider it foolish. When my circumstances were different I spent a fair amount on airplane rental as a private pilot - flying myself is one of the best things I've ever done and worth every penny I spent on it though I can't really afford to indulge that passion at present. I will again some day though (and there's nothing like it for making all your other hobbies including photography look affordable!)
I think what you are saying is to prioritize and cut back on the things not so important to you and then you can afford more of the things that are important to you, and I completely agree.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Yes, Roger, vacation is important. But I have cut down the always creeping cost of electronic media and communications.
The digital world wants a big chunk monthly which many seem to not notice.
We are not the sample. I ask young people what they spend on 'necessities' like cell phone, cable, Internet and I am amazed they they think a new car payment, for what I consider foolish, is perfectly fine, while they also complain about being broke.
Just making espresso home can save $1000 a month!
Excuse me, I am baking bread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Roger Cole
Who's to say what's foolish though? My wife and I travel a fair amount (domestically and almost entirely by car) and get a lot out of it. It's expensive but I don't consider it foolish. When my circumstances were different I spent a fair amount on airplane rental as a private pilot - flying myself is one of the best things I've ever done and worth every penny I spent on it though I can't really afford to indulge that passion at present. I will again some day though (and there's nothing like it for making all your other hobbies including photography look affordable!)
I think what you are saying is to prioritize and cut back on the things not so important to you and then you can afford more of the things that are important to you, and I completely agree.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Lookie there. Another reason to start coating my own film. :)
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Well yes. I and my wife both have smart phones with data because, well, we are addicts that way. And high speed Internet both for that reason (and streaming movies and our only TV) and because I must have it for my job and she for her grad school (I'm a network engineer and have to be on call sometimes but my employer comps almost half my cable Internet bill for that.)
But we have no TV service on that cable, no landline etc.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
I miss the landline, but ATT here kept messing it up. It was no longer reliable in Chicago. I think they did that on purpose, to get rid of landlines.
It was constantly going dead the last few years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Roger Cole
Well yes. I and my wife both have smart phones with data because, well, we are addicts that way. And high speed Internet both for that reason (and streaming movies and our only TV) and because I must have it for my job and she for her grad school (I'm a network engineer and have to be on call sometimes but my employer comps almost half my cable Internet bill for that.)
But we have no TV service on that cable, no landline etc.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Just for comparison: TMX price (excl. VAT) is about 102 USD over here in Germany (exchange rate EUR/USD 1.38), for quite a few months now - TMY very similar. I think it was a cheaper one year ago, something around 92 USD. Perhaps US dealers ran out of stock later than the German dealers, and had to refill their stocks now...
Indeed Delta 100 is about the same over here, only slightly more expensive.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
SNIP
SNIP
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DG 3313
sorry to offend
Don
no worries ..
after the long haul
fora have become a millstone around my neck
i owe you an apology, sorry to sound on-edge ...
i gotta keep bailing, the ship's sinking!
john
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
People on here seem to "love" to encourage newcomers to LF by saying how cheap it is, the gear is cheap, it's easy to develop, easy to post all those flickr-tastic snapshots of tree bark and other "film tests" using some barely adequate flatbed scanner.
Fact of the matter is compared to medium format in getting really high quality results, LF is very expensive. 4x5 is so cheap compared to larger sizes it is mind boggling and yet, those larger sizes for an even sharper image of said "tree bark" are pushed around like some serious you are missing-out-itis.
Kodak has done what Fuji and even Ilford will continue to do in order to keep paying the bills and keep the product afloat, it is the first price increase I have seen since starting with LF in May of 2012. So not only does it not surprise me, it confirms what I believe we will all see in using film in the years to come, it's niche and will be an expensive one in larger formats.
I am willing to bet that the people who complain the loudest of all about these increases are right on the ragged edge of not being able to pursue photography at all in any format because they simply are not facing the facts that they can not afford it...so they blame the makers of film.
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Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kodachrome25
People on here seem to "love" to encourage newcomers to LF by saying how cheap it is, the gear is cheap, it's easy to develop, easy to post all those flickr-tastic snapshots of tree bark and other "film tests" using some barely adequate flatbed scanner.
Fact of the matter is compared to medium format in getting really high quality results, LF is very expensive. 4x5 is so cheap compared to larger sizes it is mind boggling and yet, those larger sizes for an even sharper image of said "tree bark" are pushed around like some serious you are missing-out-itis.
Kodak has done what Fuji and even Ilford will continue to do in order to keep paying the bills and keep the product afloat, it is the first price increase I have seen since starting with LF in May of 2012. So not only does it not surprise me, it confirms what I believe we will all see in using film in the years to come, it's niche and will be an expensive one in larger formats.
I am willing to bet that the people who complain the loudest of all about these increases are right on the ragged edge of not being able to pursue photography at all in any format because they simply are not facing the facts that they can not afford it...so they blame the makers of film.
Pretty well said, that last bit is going to hurt but is very true I'm sure for many.
But we need those guys to buy their one or two boxes a year too, it adds up, and helps keep film flowing...
Honestly Dan, I hate to say it but what hurts film production most is the ebb and flow... When people like you hear there is a hike you "stock up" which means less purchase of film at the higher price for an extended period of time until you run out...
So instead of getting trickle income from constant purchasing, the film makers are seeing large periods of time without purchases... They may even make a price hike just to get people buying at the lower price, or why would they announce a hike at all, they would just implement it suddenly....
So by stocking up, you're also hurting film a little bit, because for the next 5 years... You don't count... And a company can't wait 5 years for you to come around again to buy more....
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Good point, Stone. I guess the stock-keeping in our own fridges might really affect the demand. Might sound a bit idiotic, but I moved to Kodak products (being a former Fuji-shooter, especially Velvia, Neopan 400 and Acros in MF) about 2 years ago just to support them. In fact, I think that TMX and TMY-2 are unsurpassed, although some people tend to prefer Delta 100. Ektar 100 is simply fantastic and more and more replaces Velvia for me. Both are more or less worth the money, I think. A shot costs my about 2 EUR/3USD (roughly, including development costs). I usually shoot no more than 6-8 sheets a day, including backup shots. So that's still affordable to me, especially when considering that with negatives, I have an archival proof solution which will hopefully outlast me. Furthermore, if you would sell some of your prints, the material costs for the film are almost negligible. I feel we should more compare our hobby to painters, whose materials are still way more expensive than ours (at least I heard that). Let'`s face it, we are a niche market, not a mass market any more.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Some people stocking up hasn't hurt ammo or AR15 sales. Or anything costco/sams club/bj's sells.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
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Originally Posted by
StoneNYC
Pretty well said, that last bit is going to hurt but is very true I'm sure for many.
But we need those guys to buy their one or two boxes a year too, it adds up, and helps keep film flowing...
Honestly Dan, I hate to say it but what hurts film production most is the ebb and flow... When people like you hear there is a hike you "stock up" which means less purchase of film at the higher price for an extended period of time until you run out...
So instead of getting trickle income from constant purchasing, the film makers are seeing large periods of time without purchases... They may even make a price hike just to get people buying at the lower price, or why would they announce a hike at all, they would just implement it suddenly....
So by stocking up, you're also hurting film a little bit, because for the next 5 years... You don't count... And a company can't wait 5 years for you to come around again to buy more....
Stone, that’s not quite how I operate…
For example, after experimenting, I decided I want to standardize my 4x5 use with TMX and TMY. I made an initial capital investment of 20 boxes in each speed as a method to mitigate any shortages and *expected* price increases. Once my stock dips below a certain point, like say, down to 15 boxes, I re-order and rotate stock. I was down to 17 unopened boxes of TMY so it made sense to order up.
This operative applies to all the formats I shoot and usually means I re-order film quarterly. I keep roughly 10 years worth of film in total in stock and rotate it regularly, so not only am I spending big amounts up front to get started, I spend more than most on here do in re-stocking.
By the way, this is the manner in which most professional fine art film shooters operate, they don't have time to mess around with product shortages, discontinuations so they keep a steady flow of fresh stock coming in that comes to rest on a much larger foundation of said stock.
I keep much less stock of paper, no more than a couple hundreds sheets of each size, 8x, 11x, 16x and 20x so it is always very fresh. And since Ilford is my paper of choice, I know the line is stable in terms of availability, price of course is another matter...
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Sheet film image making is NOT inexpensive or "cheap" to do.
The real expense is not in hardware, it is in the actual cost of materials and all else involved with making these images.
There is so much focus on getting bargains on lenses, cameras, film holders, the latest tripod and all else, little is often mentioned about what it actually cost to burn a box of sheet film and produce actual work from this.
The entire endeavor of LF is expensive, IMO far more expensive than most other forms of film photography as one goes up in film size, the cost involved and effort goes up significantly more over the smaller format sizes. During the mid 1990's when a sheet of 8x10 E6 color transparency film cost about $10+ including processing, it was a bargain. Today with the significantly reduced volume of materials being made and the cost of running a lab increasing for similar reasons, is there any wonder why so many have gone under? It is also why the cost of materials has gone up and up simply due to the significantly reduced volume of production and cost of making this stuff. Once the cost to produce -vs- market demand drops below a point where the business cannot sustain it's operating expenses and produce a reasonable living, they will die.
It can be fun to experiment and tinker with new lenses, films and etc.. but work to make each sheet of film result in a good expressive image. In the beginning there will be a given amount of wast, loss and more due to the learning curve involved which is why it makes sense to use the smallest sheet film format (aka 4x5 or even 6x9 roll) to learn how to use the camera, what lenses do and all that with the goal of eventually making each sheet of film result in a good expressive image.
I don't complain, balk or blink when a box of 25 sheets, 5x7 B&W film cost $60 USD, it is what it is and considered a basic expense of making images with sheet film. Yet, this is only the very beginning, each sheet will need one's time (cannot be replaced folks), effort, travel cost and all related to make the exposure. Then comes processing and all the rest of the process of producing that image. Once all these other expenses are added up, the cost of film is simply not that much in the overall cost of image making.
It would be better to spend funds on creating expressive images than forever trying to seek out bargains on a new fangled fantasy lens, camera or other "magical" bit-O-hardware. In the end, producing expressive images is what photography is all about, yet it is so easy for some to get tangled up in the stuff to create expressive images and totally forget why they got involved with photography to begin with.
Bernice
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kodachrome25
People on here seem to "love" to encourage newcomers to LF by saying how cheap it is, the gear is cheap, it's easy to develop, easy to post all those flickr-tastic snapshots of tree bark and other "film tests" using some barely adequate flatbed scanner.
Fact of the matter is compared to medium format in getting really high quality results, LF is very expensive. 4x5 is so cheap compared to larger sizes it is mind boggling and yet, those larger sizes for an even sharper image of said "tree bark" are pushed around like some serious you are missing-out-itis.
Kodak has done what Fuji and even Ilford will continue to do in order to keep paying the bills and keep the product afloat, it is the first price increase I have seen since starting with LF in May of 2012. So not only does it not surprise me, it confirms what I believe we will all see in using film in the years to come, it's niche and will be an expensive one in larger formats.
I am willing to bet that the people who complain the loudest of all about these increases are right on the ragged edge of not being able to pursue photography at all in any format because they simply are not facing the facts that they can not afford it...so they blame the makers of film.
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Re: Film prices (Kodak TMY in particular)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bernice Loui
Sheet film image making is NOT inexpensive or "cheap" to do.
The real expense is not in hardware, it is in the actual cost of materials and all else involved with making these images.
There is so much focus on getting bargains on lenses, cameras, film holders, the latest tripod and all else, little is often mentioned about what it actually cost to burn a box of sheet film and produce actual work from this.
...
It would be better to spend funds on creating expressive images than forever trying to seek out bargains on a new fangled fantasy lens, camera or other "magical" bit-O-hardware. In the end, producing expressive images is what photography is all about, yet it is so easy for some to get tangled up in the stuff to create expressive images and totally forget why they got involved with photography to begin with.
Bernice
Freestyle, Arista EDU 100, 4x5, 25 sheets, $19. Cheap.
Developer, cheap.
Stop bath, cheap.
Fixer, cheap.
Trays, cheap.
Look, it's not as cheap as Mad Magazine, but it is what it is.
Every week, I spend about $20 on comic books. (Yeah, I read instead of going to the movies. No, I don't move my lips as I read.) Everybody doing this as a hobby spends a little bit. Now, how many hobbyists shoot over 25 sheets per week?
How many of the hobbyist photographers have 25 filmholders to load up a 50 sheet box? And once out and about, how fast does a person go through them? The only LF cameras with a motor drive were the big sports monsters and the military aerial survey crews, and they used roll film.
So yeah, it's cheap to get into this, and cheap to go photographing for a few images. At $0.76 per shot, and some time in the bathroom, that's a pretty cheap thrill.
The rest of it, "expressive images," is actually a philosophical question. For instance, what's-her-face-in-Canada, the photographer who went around photographing people's trash bags before they got picked up, were those images "expressive?" And how much physical work went into popping a snap of a trash bag? The real work was writing the ad copy.
Me? I'll always remember why I got into photograph. Moonlight.