Osaka Commercial 360mm f/6.8 info

Hello all you knowledgeable people with nothing better to do. Maybe you can help me. I've got an Osaka Commercial 360mm f/6.8 lens in a Copal #3s shutter. I've had if for a while and kind of forgot about the thing. I can't remember what I paid for it now but it was dirt cheap. The lens had a ding in the barrel around the filter threads. I've repaired it so filters now screw on it like it was brand new.

I've done some research on the internet and some claim that Osaka Commercial is the same as the Commercial Congo. The problem I have is that a 360mm Commercial Congo came in a Copal #3 shutter and not the smaller #3s shutter as my Osaka Commercial. The 360 Commercial Congo has an image circle of 415mm. I'm wondering if the Osaka Commercial is the same. Both are Tessar lenses and said to be copies of the 14" Kodak Commercial Ektar. One thing said was that quality control wasn't the best so individual samples vary. Yeah, I know, I have to shoot it and find out for myself.

So I am wondering if it does indeed have an image circle of 415mm and if any of you know more information about this lens. Thank you all in advance.

Alan

It's a great lens. I love mine. Just put it in front of my 7x17 camera the other day and it fully illuminated the ground glass. Seemed sharp in the corners when I stopped it down. It was billed as a 10x12 lens. I find it's image quality superb. As far as I know the Commercial Congo and the Commercial Osaka are the same.

Why don't you shoot with it and find out.

I have a 360mm Commercial Congo and it is in a Copal 3s shutter. One of my favorite lenses on the 8x10 but never thought to try it on the 7x17. Thanks for that tip Karl.

The nomenclature surrounding Copal 3 and 3S shutters is inconsistent and sometime misleading.

Sitting on the desk in front of me are three lenses mounted in Copal 3S shutters. Two of the shutters are marked "Copal 3" and the third says only "Copal". But all are Copal 3S, as confirmed by measurements, which is the only reliable way. It's very possible the (scanty) online Osaka Commercial literature simply omitted the "S".

The lens was made by Yamasaki Optical, was rebadged Osaka by Bromwell Marketing. What little information about Congo lenses exists online is here: http://web.archive.org/web/201204192...o/index_e.html

Yamasaki says its in a Copal #3. They might or might not be mistaken/confused but since the firm has closed I'm not sure there's anyone there we could ask.

Bromwell Marketing's site is still up. Perhaps Ted can shed some light. http://www.bromwellmarketing.com/

Thanks Karl, I'm going to test it against my 14" Kodak Commercial Ektar which is my favorite lens. It should have plenty of coverage for my 8x10.

Thanks Thom, The shutter with my lens is plainly marked Copal-NO. 3S

Thanks Steve, I believe you are correct and there is some confusion about Copal 3 versus 3s. I have seen Copal 3s shutters marked Copal 3. I was just trying to confirm that this is the same lens as the Congo. It is said to be a Commercial Ektar copy so I will test it against my 14" Commercial Ektar and see which I like better. I do like the shutter better than the old Ilex #5 but the Kodak has a little larger image circle at 444mm. If I do decide to sell this lens then the more information I have on it the better.

Thanks Dan, I found that Congo information last night. That's how I determined the 415mm image circle for the 360mm Congo. I'll have to shoot Ted a message to see if he has more to add.

I wouldn't trust any information in the Congo web pages. Both my 90mm f/6.3 and my 150mm f/4 soft focus take 40.5mm filters, contrary to what's claimed in the tables. There's no telling what other discrepancies may exist. The lenses themselves seem fine, but accurate documentation doesn't seem to have been their strong point.

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Originally Posted by Steve Goldstein

I wouldn't trust any information in the Congo web pages. Both my 90mm f/6.3 and my 150mm f/4 soft focus take 40.5mm filters, contrary to what's claimed in the tables. There's no telling what other discrepancies may exist. The lenses themselves seem fine, but accurate documentation doesn't seem to have been their strong point.

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Thanks Steve!

I have a couple Congo lenses in my 4x5" arsenal and think highly of them.

Someone once told me that Congo lenses were made by former Nikon optical engineers who decided to leave to start their own business. Can anyone here confirm that?

Terry, Yamasaki Optical was making lenses before WW II. I think you're been misinformed. There's a similar story about the Norita 6x6 SLR.

I contacted Ted at Bromwell Marketing yesterday and he got back to me a few hours later. He said that the Congo and Osaka Commercial are indeed identical. He couldn't provide any more information though due to that he is no longer keeping his files on lenses.

The early Copal 3's were designed to replace Compound 3 which had a 56mm thread, thus many old Copal 3 have that thread. Later they standardized on 58mm and identified the smaller thread with an 's' Copal 3s, but older Copal's don't differentiate. I think what happened was that when Compur discontinued the Compound, the new rimset shutter was 58mm and Copal followed the German lead.

I bought one of the new old stock 360mm congos in barrel a while back, and after gathering info on the forum waited for an appropriate copal 3s shutter to appear on fee-bay. I purchased the shutter and on arrival tried to fit the front element, it didn't fit? Now after talking to an authority who sold these for some years, it seems Yamasaki would turn out the thread size depending on what shutter they had available at the time.
Luckily I have found a copal 3 shutter going at discount price still in its box, so I will await its arrival and try once more.

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Originally Posted by andrewch59

I bought one of the new old stock 360mm Congos in barrel a while back, and after gathering info on the forum waited for an appropriate Copal 3s shutter to appear on fee-bay. I purchased the shutter and on arrival tried to fit the front element, it didn't fit? Now after talking to an authority who sold these for some years, it seems Yamasaki would turn out the thread size depending on what shutter they had available at the time.
Luckily I have found a Copal 3 shutter going at discount price still in its box, so I will await its arrival and try once more.

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If you ever want to sell a Copal 3 shutter, please get in touch with me. I have a Schneider 360mm lens that I would like to move from a Compound shutter to one with a wider range of shutter speeds available to use. I do not know the thread specs.

Or if my 360mm Schneider won't fit, I would like to make a soft focus lens using a single element from a magnifying glass.

Thanks for the offer, after a preliminary search I see the Schneider 360mm tele-xenar fits into a copal 3 shutter (58mm thread), the one I wont be keeping is a 3s (marked as copal 3), but has a 56mm thread. I paid a bit for it (sold item number: 192209516612) may be cheaper for you to buy a cheap lens with a copal3 shutter wrapped around it.
Regards Andrew

An interim report on the 360mm Commercial Congo used on the 7x17 format: The lens covers beautifully wide open without the "stretching" at the edges I have experienced with other lenses that I hoped would cover (i.e. Fuji 250mm f 6.7; Fuji 420mm L). I observed the scene while stopping down a bit and figured everything was a go so I closed the lens and exposed at f64. Big mistake; significant vignetting in the corners. Today I set the camera up and carefully watched the corners as I stopped down and noticed that it starts to vignette at about f22. I'll do a formal test on film as soon as I can but, for now, was wondering if anyone else has experienced vignetting beyond f22 with this lens mounted on a 7x17. Other than the vignetting the negs looked nice and sharp.

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Originally Posted by Steve Goldstein

I wouldn't trust any information in the Congo web pages. Both my 90mm f/6.3 and my 150mm f/4 soft focus take 40.5mm filters, contrary to what's claimed in the tables. There's no telling what other discrepancies may exist. The lenses themselves seem fine, but accurate documentation doesn't seem to have been their strong point.

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Interesting, because the website claims that the 360mm f6.8 lens takes a 67mm filter. Maybe; but, I kind of doubt it.

My G-Claron 355mm f9 has a 77mm filter, and a Symmar-S f6.8 lens that I had was HUGE, with a 120mm filter thread. Of course, part of that depends on design. But, 67mm???

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Originally Posted by neil poulsen

Interesting, because the website claims that the 360mm f6.8 lens takes a 67mm filter. Maybe; but, I kind of doubt it.

My G-Claron 355mm f9 has a 77mm filter, and a Symmar-S f6.8 lens that I had was HUGE, with a 120mm filter thread. Of course, part of that depends on design. But, 67mm???

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Neil, I can confirm that the 360mm takes 67mm filters. That's one reason I got it for the 8x10. Most of my other lenses use 67mm filters.

I had to repair the filter ring on mine due to a ding. I can now screw on a 67mm filter with ease.

If anyone is interested, I purchased one of those el cheapo Chinese filter ring tools. It works like a charm and I've made back the money I was out on it repairing filter rings. I used to sell a lot of lenses on Ebay though and you would have to decide yourself if the $35 or so is worth it.

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Originally Posted by Thom Bennett

An interim report on the 360mm Commercial Congo used on the 7x17 format: The lens covers beautifully wide open without the "stretching" at the edges I have experienced with other lenses that I hoped would cover (i.e. Fuji 250mm f 6.7; Fuji 420mm L). I observed the scene while stopping down a bit and figured everything was a go so I closed the lens and exposed at f64. Big mistake; significant vignetting in the corners. Today I set the camera up and carefully watched the corners as I stopped down and noticed that it starts to vignette at about f22. I'll do a formal test on film as soon as I can but, for now, was wondering if anyone else has experienced vignetting beyond f22 with this lens mounted on a 7x17. Other than the vignetting the negs looked nice and sharp.

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Thom, I was wondering what shutter you use with the congo? Seems the large copal 3 shutter I purchased for this lens does not fit (too small), I have no other options

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Originally Posted by andrewch59

Thom, I was wondering what shutter you use with the congo? Seems the large copal 3 shutter I purchased for this lens does not fit (too small), I have no other options

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You may have a Copal 3S shutter, not the Copal 3 that the Commercial Congo 360mm f/6.8 lens needs. Confusingly, some 3S shutters are marked 3. The 3S has 56mm threads, the 3 has 58mm threads.

Kumar

Yes, Copal 3S for mine. But indeed it just says "Copal 3."

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Originally Posted by andrewch59

Thom, I was wondering what shutter you use with the congo? Seems the large copal 3 shutter I purchased for this lens does not fit (too small), I have no other options

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I believe it is a Copal 3S but it is marked Copal 3.

Err no! From advice I received on this thread I tried a copal 3s, too small, so I purchased a copal 3, still too small. Unless of course there are three different sized copal 3?? Perhaps I'm just climbing the ladder

That's it for Copal 3 shutters. Perhaps it's time for a Packard shutter behind the lens. Just leave it in the barrel.

I got my information here: http://www.jck.net/congo/frame_e.htm which says you need a Copal #3 shutter. There are only two Copal 3 sizes - 3 and 3S, of which the latter is confusingly named 3 occasionally. Iif you could measure the lens cell threads it would help.

Kumar

Hi Kumar, Yes you can see the difference In size between the two I have, both a copal 3s (marked as copal 3) and a copal 3 which is I believe is 2 mil larger thread and 2.4 mil thicker? I have made a shutter out of a speed graphic cut in half, my go to shutter for larger lenses, takes everything including a 16 inch ross portrait petzval. It accepts a deardorff lens board.

Andrew, what I meant was that if you can tell us the measurements of the lens cells, someone here would probably know in which shutter they would fit.

Kumar

My Osaka Commercial 360mm lens is in a shutter clearly marked Copal - No. 3s.

I don't know why Copal didn't mark all their 3s shutters. It's a bit silly and confusing.

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Originally Posted by Thom Bennett

Neil, I can confirm that the 360mm takes 67mm filters. That's one reason I got it for the 8x10. Most of my other lenses use 67mm filters.

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Thanks for the clarification. As I indicated in my original post, that's really interesting.

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Originally Posted by B.S.Kumar

Andrew, what I meant was that if you can tell us the measurements of the lens cells, someone here would probably know in which shutter they would fit.

Kumar

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I don't have a vernier, but the 3s is 56mm, the 3 58mm both of these measurements match the s.k. grimes specs, the front lens cell measures 67mm ??

Since you say that the cells won't fit into either of these shutters, we'll need the measurements of the threaded part of the lens cells. Then someone could figure out which shutter(s) they'll fit.

Kumar

I have seen 360mm Congo lenses in a barrel mount for sale on Ebay. Is it possible that Congo made lenses in a barrel with different thread sizes than would fit in a standard shutter size?

I have a couple of Congo 210mm lenses in barrel. The cells have 54.5mm threads, which will not fit into any shutter I have (and I have a few!)

Kumar

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Originally Posted by David Karp

I have seen 360mm Congo lenses in a barrel mount for sale on Ebay. Is it possible that Congo made lenses in a barrel with different thread sizes than would fit in a standard shutter size?

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My Congo catalogue (trustworthy?) lists a 360mm f6.3 (not f6.8) Studio Lens in Normal Barrel with a mounting thread size of 70mm. I've never actually seen this lens or the next longest, a 420mm f6.3, which was discontinued back in the 1970s, I think.

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Originally Posted by B.S.Kumar

Since you say that the cells won't fit into either of these shutters, we'll need the measurements of the threaded part of the lens cells. Then someone could figure out which shutter(s) they'll fit.

Kumar

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67mm is the threaded end which screws into the barrel

I'm afraid I can't recall any shutter that has a 67mm thread. Perhaps someone else knows more?

Kumar

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Originally Posted by andrewch59

67mm is the threaded end which screws into the barrel

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So what are the cell's mounting threads diameters?

Not what you want to hear, but fair advice none the less. Either fit a Packard behind it and learn how to work with 1/20th second or longer exposures, or take good images of it and put it on Ebay. It's not a terribly valuable lens, and there are plenty of 360 Osaka lenses in fine working shutters for not much money. Sell yours and buy one of those. You'll be money and grief to the good.

Attachment 170177Attachment 170178Attachment 170179

I did my research prior to purchasing this lens, by all reports it should have fitted into a copal 3, of course with the lack of documentation on line there is no way of being certain. Is still good on my studio and 10x12 field using the speed graphic curtain shutter