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Kodak paranoia is over
At least in my house.
I'm no longer paranoid about Kodak making more bad moves and taking my favorite films away like polaroid, agfa, etc...
I just got a box from B&H to complete my 3-5 year supply/stash of sizes I use. I'll vacuum bag it and put it in my freezer tonight.
Of course if Kodak remains in the film business or sells it to a worthy steward, I'll still buy some and keep probably a 2+/- year stash as a hedge against silver/film prices or product changes.
If Kodak goes away, I'll have a couple years to figure out Ilford film real good, and film to make nice photos with in the mean time.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
I've read a few times to steer clear of vacuum-bagging film in the freezer. I forget the reasons.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom J McDonald
I've read a few times to steer clear of vacuum-bagging film in the freezer. I forget the reasons.
I'd be interested in the reasons too.
As long as you don't crush the boxes, I can't see any reason why keeping air/additional moisture away from your film would be a problem. Ziplocs aren't very airtight.
Jp, thanks for relieving all of us.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
It's interesting to know in this forum how many Americans do not really know Ilford films.
Ilford has more expertise in black and white products than Kodak, and always had better papers. Except for TriX, that is unique, Ilford's B&W films have the edge.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Ilford has more expertise in black and white products than Kodak, and always had better papers. Except for TriX, that is unique, Ilford's B&W films have the edge.
:eek: I hope you that you are trying to be sarcastic? When did Ilford last put any developement into it's current film offerings?
No one beats Kodak quality.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Ilford have their own nice films, but nothing that competes directly with TMax films, esp with something like TMY400 which combines speed and a relatively straight line characteristic curve. TriX is old school film - some people love it but it has quite a toe and is very gritty. And I use TMX100 for color separations. FP4 is much more difficult
to use for this kind of purpose. So I've stuffed my freezer with Kodak, though I will
use Ilford films too when appropriate. I double bag everything in the freezer. And everything in there is in unopened boxes with heat sealed foil wrap inside the box.
Works fine. Just don't freeze or refrigerate film once the pkg is opened.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
According to PhotoEngineer over at APUG, the problem is with film which wasn't placed in a sealed bag at the factory, like 35mm film. If the film comes from the factory in a sealed bag, then no problem. However, film like Ilford, which comes in a simple bag also has the problem that 35mm faces.
The emulsion needs a "normal" humidity to stay pliable. So when vacuum bagging, just hit the seal button before the vacuum is fully formed. The emulsion will be just fine in the future. Otherwise, the emulsion is prone to drying in a vacuum, or being exposed to the dry environment of the freezer.
Myself, I have used 20+ year old Tri-X which was "improperly" stored, with no apparent ill effects. The sealed packs were just fine.
JP, what Kodak film did you buy? C-41, E-6, or B&W?
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
What they said, there is no subsitute for TMY. Kodak makes the only 400 asa sheet film that you can rate at 400 processed in pyro.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Today's order was 30 propacks of tmy2 120, which should last me about three years at a roll per week.
I've got tmax400 in 4x5, 8x10, 120, 35mm, and tri-x in 8x10 (an old style with top quality). Nothing is quite like Tmax 400 though.
I've even got a little arista edu foma 100 , but the last sheet of that I developed had a fingerprint on it that wasn't mine. I feel it's good to evaluate film options from time to time; I'm not a film fanboy or brand bigot.
Ilford is good and I use their paper, but I can not handle too many types of film at once.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
JP, since TMY2 isn't "endangered," why did stock up on that?
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jan Pedersen
No one beats Kodak quality.
Perhaps not but Ilford and Fujifilm equal it.
Steve.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
I switched to ILFORD film a few years ago and posted about it and joined in other threads about it. However, in the last year or so, the ILFORD 120 films have become a dollar more per roll than T-max from my local shop (and B&H). That is quite a big difference in price, so I went back to T-max 120.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Perhaps not but Ilford and Fujifilm equal it.
We all have our favorites and mine is Kodak. Fuji may equal Kodak in the QC department but i will never agree that Ilford does. I and many others have had to many issues with Ilford sheet film to group it together with Kodak.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brian C. Miller
According to PhotoEngineer over at APUG, the problem is with film which wasn't placed in a sealed bag at the factory, like 35mm film. If the film comes from the factory in a sealed bag, then no problem. However, film like Ilford, which comes in a simple bag also has the problem that 35mm faces.
The emulsion needs a "normal" humidity to stay pliable. So when vacuum bagging, just hit the seal button before the vacuum is fully formed. The emulsion will be just fine in the future. Otherwise, the emulsion is prone to drying in a vacuum, or being exposed to the dry environment of the freezer.
Myself, I have used 20+ year old Tri-X which was "improperly" stored, with no apparent ill effects. The sealed packs were just fine.
JP, what Kodak film did you buy? C-41, E-6, or B&W?
I've used improperly (just room temperature) stored Tri-X that was 15 years old and it was horrible, practically unusable, but I'd guess that freezer stored it would be fine.
It's true that Ilford does not have anything quite like TMY (or TMX) but they do have very fine films, at least for normal pictorial use. The seldom-mentioned on this site Delta films, while grainier than TMX/TMY, are definitely new style films and more like TMX/TMY than they are like FP4/Plus-X or HP5/Tri-X. Worth a try.
For the photography I do right now, Tri-X is the only Kodak black and white film I'd miss very much. I'd miss TMZ in 35mm because I can get a bit more speed and less grain out of it than Delta 3200, but I like Delta 3200 too in 120.
In 4x5 I shoot TMY-2 but could happily go to HP5 for most things, maybe Acros when lack of reciprocity failure is needed. If TMY-2 were to go away I think Ilford might reconsider bringing Delta 400 back in sheets and I could happily use that too (have before, back when they made it in sheets.) It's a bit grainier than TMY-2 but in large format the difference simply does not matter to me.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jan Pedersen
We all have our favorites and mine is Kodak. Fuji may equal Kodak in the QC department but i will never agree that Ilford does. I and many others have had to many issues with Ilford sheet film to group it together with Kodak.
What kind of issues?
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jan Pedersen
That's not very convincing. I don't think ou can make generalization from these discussions.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
I don't generalize, i have had the same problems with numerous sheets of FP4+ and Delta100 but i have shot several hundred sheets of Kodak film and not one issue.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jan Pedersen
I don't generalize, i have had the same problems with numerous sheets of FP4+ and Delta100 but i have shot several hundred sheets of Kodak film and not one issue.
So, everyone in the whole world has the exact same problem?? Hard to believe.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
What is your point? i don't get it.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Hmmm, I have shot thousands of sheets of TRI-X and FP4 over the years developed in a tray and in BTZS tubes-absolutely no difference in those situations that I have ever seen. You make mistakes and you get scratches.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Kirk, The issue here is FP4+ processed in a Jobo 3005. I am sure that FP4+ can be processed in a tray no problem.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Jan, it's clear that your technique is the cause of the issues and not ilford QC. I've read the APUG thread too.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
It sure is my problem, i agree 100% ;)
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
I have used thousands of sheets of FP4+ and Delta 100 all developed in a Jobo 3010 drum with no issues. That said, I know of photographers who did have issues 20+ years ago when Ilford was using a base material that would buckle over time, but in all the years I have used it I have never had an issue.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
I've always considered FP4 to be slightly more prone to scratching than Kodak films,
though not fragile in the sense of certain EU films. But I haven't scratched any Ilford
film in a long time, despite using plenty of it.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
The problems i have with Ilford film is only in the 8x10 format. You mention the Jobo 3010 which tells me that you process a smaller format.
As Joe stated above it is a problem that i, Jordan and others have with 8x10 Ilford film and since i can process all other brands without getting these swirl marks on the back Ilford film is just not working for me, at least not in 8x10 and in a comfortable way that i can trust.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jp498
At least in my house.
I'm no longer paranoid about Kodak making more bad moves and taking my favorite films away like polaroid, agfa, etc...
I just got a box from B&H to complete my 3-5 year supply/stash of sizes I use. I'll vacuum bag it and put it in my freezer tonight.
Of course if Kodak remains in the film business or sells it to a worthy steward, I'll still buy some and keep probably a 2+/- year stash as a hedge against silver/film prices or product changes.
If Kodak goes away, I'll have a couple years to figure out Ilford film real good, and film to make nice photos with in the mean time.
I've a modest supply of plate holders. No pair of noias here, not even a lone noia:D
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jan Pedersen
The problems i have with Ilford film is only in the 8x10 format...
Whether developing Kodak or Ilford film, for 8x10 I don't use the 3005 Expert drum. Inserting that size film in those chambers is a tighter fit than I'm comfortable with. Instead, I use the rare and precious 3004 drum for 8x10. Its larger chambers seem better suited and are easier to load/unload. Purchasing only one 3004 drum before they were discontinued was my single largest planning failure. Although one can find them on the used market, listings are far and few between. If my shooting involved more 8x10, I'd be patiently looking for another 3004. However, since I mainly use 5x7 and whole plate film, processing 4 sheets of 8x10 and then having to dry the drum before running another batch has been an acceptable compromise.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
FWIW I have been rotary processing Ilford Delta 100 one and two sheets at a time in a Jobo 2830 without any scratches. Initially I processed one sheet at a time and the last two times I processed 2 sheets together. On the first I noticed that one edge of a sheet slipped out of its slot and overlapped the other sheet about an inch without scratching it.
Thomas
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Sal, Thank you for the tip about the 3004.
I don't think that the tight tubes in the 3005 is the real issue since i don't have any problems with linear scratches as i would if it was due to inserting or removing the film from the drums.
Speed on the CPP is more likely but i have tried the slowest possible setting without seeing any improvement.
Luckily i have enough Kodak film in the freezer to last me for 10 years or until it is so fogged that it can't be used anymore so, it is just an annoyance more so than a real serious problem not having any film to shoot.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jan Pedersen
...I don't think that the tight tubes in the 3005 is the real issue since i don't have any problems with linear scratches as i would if it was due to inserting or removing the film from the drums...
The tight fit of 8x10 in a 3005 can make is more susceptible to shifting linearly and circumferentially in the chamber during rotation. That probably accounts for "swirly" scratches on the base. The greater flexibility of Ilford's sheets compared to Kodak's means they "hug" the chamber walls more, thereby result in higher scratch potential.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom J McDonald
I've read a few times to steer clear of vacuum-bagging film in the freezer. I forget the reasons.
I bought a 25-sheet box of Tech Pan 4x5-inch film from an auction site seller several years ago. When I received the box it was crushed to about 1/2 it's original thickness from being vacuum sealed to a heavy vacuum.
I didn't think it was a good idea to put all that pressure against the pack of film sheets so I contacted Kodak and asked for their opinion on vacuum sealing.
They basically advised against it saying there could be changes in the emulsion from the uneven contact pressure. Under atmospheric pressure the box crushes flat at the center but not at the edges. This places uneven contact pressure on the interior film stack.
Regarding the Tech-Pan I repacked the film in a different box and that's the way I have it stored now. I did shoot a few sheets and I didn't notice any damage on the negatives from the crushing. But frankly I haven't shot enough of the box to know if the center sheets were affected.
Anyway, my current procedure for long term storage is to use the vacuum sealing bags but without pulling a vacuum. I put each box of film I want to store in a sealing bag, press as much of the air out by hand that I can, and just use the heat-sealing mechanism to seal the bag.
Works for me and keeps out excess moisture but doesn't crush the box from heavy vacuum pressure.
Bob G.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
All depends on the ambient temp and humidity when you seal the film up. For critical
work I built a dessication chamber to moitor the humidity per hermetic encapsulation
of prints, but could also use it for sealing film. More often, I just don't freeze or refrig
open film boxes, period. Even new ones I double bag with plastic. For fussy work one
can acquire sheets of poly sandwiched to aluminum, which can be sealed with a tacking iron. It's a much better barrier than plastic alone.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
All depends on the ambient temp and humidity when you seal the film up. For critical
work I built a dessication chamber to moitor the humidity per hermetic encapsulation
of prints, but could also use it for sealing film. More often, I just don't freeze or refrig
open film boxes, period. Even new ones I double bag with plastic. For fussy work one
can acquire sheets of poly sandwiched to aluminum, which can be sealed with a tacking iron. It's a much better barrier than plastic alone.
I can just see this being the new expired film selling point.
"Sealed in a dessication chamber."
I'd buy it. :)
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Giving the bag interior a blast of nitrogen would be a lot easier than a desiccation chamber.
Rick "cheap at your local welding supply" Denney
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
(psychotic nitpicking follows) Actually, Rick, you'd have to vacuum the air out, and then repressurize it with the nitrogen atmosphere. And that would work only with film that's been packaged in unsealed bags. Kodak bags are sealed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brian C. Miller
(psychotic nitpicking follows) Actually, Rick, you'd have to vacuum the air out, and then repressurize it with the nitrogen atmosphere. And that would work only with film that's been packaged in unsealed bags. Kodak bags are sealed.
I was solely addressing the idea of bagging anything in a desiccation chamber.
Rick "whose argon bottle stays in the garage" Denney
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
How about a hermetcally sealed Hellmans mayonnaise jar with a Funk & Wagnallls Dictionary on top?
John "haunted by mentally rerunning of the Tonight Show in my brain" Kasaian
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Makes a huge difference at what humidity you seal the air inside. Common sense.
Maybe you live in a desert climate. Lots of us don't. Even framing a picture behind
glass at high humidity levels can lead to mildew, as every conservator knows. One can
simply buy one of those little vac packaging units for freezing veggies for about a hundred bucks. Don't count on a single plastic heat sealed bag alone however. But my
own preference is never to refreeze film once it has been opened, or if the mfg didn't
seal it entirely (some don't, and only use a folded paper or plastic black bag). Long
term cold storage of actually exposed color negs is a different story. Fortunately,
these particular films seems to be more fade-resistant than they once were. But this
again all depends on climate. I've seen a lot of older chromes as well as negs ruined by
humidity. Can't imagine how they archive stuff in Hawaii.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Helcio J Tagliolatto
It's interesting to know in this forum how many Americans do not really know Ilford films.
Ilford has more expertise in black and white products than Kodak, and always had better papers. Except for TriX, that is unique, Ilford's B&W films have the edge.
You are joking arn't you or just playing the fool? Howard Tanger
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Helcio J Tagliolatto
It's interesting to know in this forum how many Americans do not really know Ilford films.
it's intresting to read how many photographers praise their self and their possibility to invest k of $ in all kind of stashes of film.
It sounds like "you know, i'm feeling safe because i have the money to buy 1000 boxes of film".
For a student like me, and probably also for others, sounds a bit.... you know ;)
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
I doubt there's anyone on this forum who doesn't know about Ilford film. Some of us
have tested every single film they make at one time or another. And buying certain films in volume is just common sense in certain cases. It's only going to get more
expensive, some types might not be available at all later on, and there's always a
learning curve to substitutions. So this has nothing to do with being snobby. Most of
us were starving students at one time in life too and had to watch expenses carefully.
I personally have a very high opinion of Iford products, but there are certain niches
which Kodak films fill better. And Ilford (Harman) offers no color products whatsoever.
In the long run, the right film for the application is generally the best bargain. It will
save wasted printing paper, which ain't getting any cheaper either.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drew Wiley
I doubt there's anyone on this forum who doesn't know about Ilford film. Some of us
have tested every single film they make at one time or another. And buying certain films in volume is just common sense in certain cases. It's only going to get more
expensive, some types might not be available at all later on, and there's always a
learning curve to substitutions. So this has nothing to do with being snobby. Most of
us were starving students at one time in life too and had to watch expenses carefully.
I personally have a very high opinion of Iford products, but there are certain niches
which Kodak films fill better. And Ilford (Harman) offers no color products whatsoever.
In the long run, the right film for the application is generally the best bargain. It will
save wasted printing paper, which ain't getting any cheaper either.
agree with you, but probably when you were starving (or not) students the 4x5 film or the super 8 cassettes were available on any store's shelf, at any moment of the year, in my case i start to feel that i've decided to start my LF adventure too late...
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MWitmann
agree with you, but probably when you were starving (or not) students the 4x5 film or the super 8 cassettes were available on any store's shelf, at any moment of the year, in my case i start to feel that i've decided to start my LF adventure too late...
True, and I sympathize. I well remember my high school and college days when a consumer grade SLR was a luxury to save up for and I made test strips on the narrowest strip I thought would work to save paper (which probably cost more paper in the long run, but never mind.) Now I can afford all the film and paper I have time to use, which isn't that much because time is so much more precious and limited. :(
OTOH, back when we were scrounging students we didn't have eBay and the web forums to find deals on cold stored film, either. Most such I've bought have shot fine. I did get some supposedly frozen Elitechrome 400 that sucks. After two rolls of wasted results I'm tossing the rest, or maybe tying to cross process it and see what happens.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Hey MWitmann, I would like to share my feelings about the future of film and what is happening now on the large format photography scene. There will be constant change on the horizon. The film business will get smaller and we will have much less choices when it comes to products available to us. We must deal with it. My recent return to large format photography, after about three years, has been a pleasure but I was shocked to see how fast things have changed. So, I said to myself, either I'm going to dwell on the negative, or not give a hoot and have fun enjoying my large format photography, I decided to not give a hoot and be positive. Many great photographers used one film and the same system their entire career. Have fun, there will always be film.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
I grew up where exactly one type of film was available - outdated 35mm Kodachrome, and it would take weeks to get the slides back. It was just as much a financial hardship for me to shoot 35mm back then as 8x10 is now. I had the good fortune that my older brother became a Pentax and Linhof salesman to put himself thru Photog School, and my high school graduation present was an early Pentax SLR. Sheet film was probably no more common in urban camera stores back then than it is now. In fact, the selection is probably even bigger at the moment, at least in terms of shelf inventory. So excuse me if I'm not moved to tears by a few bumps in the road. There's
plenty of wonderful film and papers on the market right now, and the bigger dilemma is
figuring out which is the best for your personal needs. No sense wasting more time.
Start shooting and join the fun!
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
I had to stop before in order to fix my old pick up truck while I still had daylight. I just wanted to add a few more things here.Like I said, I'm just going to enjoy my large format photography, try many of the great films available from Freestyle, and let the whole digital tidal wave wash itself away. Let all the goo goo byte, mega bit, pixel this and pixel that bunch keep spending their way toward the ultimate ultra-awesome latest super cameras. When they are all finished and we have a cheap sensor that slides into the back of my view camera, well, I'll give it a try.
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jp498
Today's order was 30 propacks of tmy2 120, which should last me about three years at a roll per week.
I've got tmax400 in 4x5, 8x10, 120, 35mm, and tri-x in 8x10 (an old style with top quality). Nothing is quite like Tmax 400 though.
I've even got a little arista edu foma 100 , but the last sheet of that I developed had a fingerprint on it that wasn't mine. I feel it's good to evaluate film options from time to time; I'm not a film fanboy or brand bigot.
Ilford is good and I use their paper, but I can not handle too many types of film at once.
i have had problems with fingerprints on foma film, also wasnt mine,
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Re: Kodak paranoia is over
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Helcio J Tagliolatto
It's interesting to know in this forum how many Americans do not really know Ilford films.
Ilford has more expertise in black and white products than Kodak, and always had better papers. Except for TriX, that is unique, Ilford's B&W films have the edge.
on which? "t-grain" - delta? ...fuji & kodak have the edge clearly there.
and papers? apart from warmtone... everything else - Ilford... I ' affraid that it does not do the job for me
and these are of course personal opinions....
edit> Just to put a Brand on the game... I would me worthwile for fellow LF photographers to check ADOX films and papers ..and Foma papers as well. ADOX does really old fashioned emulsions that are very interesting