Shen Hao versus Ebony

Per the earlier thread here, http://www.largeformatphotography.in...ad.php?t=19052 , I mentioned I’d report back my findings after comparing these two cameras.

To clarify my purpose, I wanted a wooden camera primarily as a back-up to my Arca F-line Metric, but also wanted to have a ‘fun’ camera to use. I felt the nostalgia and selection from wooden folders would fill these requirements. Next, one should bear in mind when reading this that in addition to shooting film I use a Betterlight scanning back. The Betterlight head is about the size and weight of an older Polaroid metal 545 holder and my typical field scan-times range from 35 seconds to nearly three minutes. Because of this, the camera I use needs to be reasonably rigid. There are two types of rigidity that are important. The first is normal lateral rigidity that holds the standards parallel to each other and the second is torsional rigidity which prevents the rear standard from twisting sideways relative to the front standard when the heavy Betterlight is in the back. Lack of either will prevent me from gleaning the maximum imaging potential from the Betterlight back. From prior experience I can tell you that the Ikeda/Nagoaka/Osaka style wooden cameras won’t cut it on the torsional front; they are simply too flimsy. This narrowed the field initially to higher quality wooden cameras such as the Ebony and Canham, however having heard positive things regarding rigidity and build quality from a few users, I decided the relatively inexpensive Shen Hao might be worth a look too. (FTR, I also looked at a Wisner ‘Pocket Expedition’ in a local store and was appalled at its lack of rigidity – it is so loose even after locking everything down that it rattles if gently shaken!)

In addition to rigidity, I wanted a relatively lightweight and compact folder suitable for longer hikes or trips, though weight was the least critical consideration since lightweight and rigidity are generally at competing ends of the choice spectrum. When size was taken into consideration, I quickly eliminated the Canham wood 4x5 due to it being a 5x7 camera with a 4x5 back – as such it is roughly 70mm taller (nearly 3 inches) and 90mm wider (3.75 inches) than the Shen Hao or Ebony SV 45Te, though its weight is in the same class as the Ebony. (The Shen is about ¾ pound lighter.)

Finally, in choosing a suitable camera, one needs to consider the range of focals used. My stable consists of 55mm through 300mm lenses with my most used lens being my 120, followed next by the 65 and 210. My Arca can accommodate 55mm through 450mm on flat boards with the standard bellows. Ideally, the wooden camera I choose would be able to handle this same range, or at least be able to handle the 65 without a bag bellows or recessed board.

With that groundwork laid, I’ll get on with my impressions of the two cameras.

The Ebony. Without repeating other reviews, the Ebony is very well built and is easy and intuitive to use. Its dark ebony wood with black bellows and dull silver titanium hardware combine to make the ebony a very attractive camera. The Ebony model I am evaluating is the 45 SV Te. The overall design is very well planned out and makes the camera a pleasure to use. It is the most rigid wooden camera I have used at the 300mm extension point and beyond. That said it is still not as rigid as my Arca, though I never really expected to find a wooden camera that would be that rigid. As a plus, it will focus 55mm through 450mm lenses on flat boards using its standard bellows, just like my Arca. Lastly, the groundglass is perfectly parallel to the film plane. This is easy to confirm with my Betterlight back and test target, and is a very welcome finding in any camera. The quality of the woodwork is first class and the fit and finish of the metalwork is exceptional and probably one of the main reasons this wooden folder is as rigid as it is.

Now for some Ebony nits. To get a lens shorter than 90 to focus on a flat board, you need to contort the front standard rearward by using a combination of rear base tilt, forward axis tilt and rise. This gyration takes time and makes achieving precise parallelism of the standards left somewhat to chance – not an ideal situation for me since I use the 65 a fair amount of the time. FWIW, when using a 450 or longer lens, the converse tilts are required – rear axis and forward base – to get the added extension needed to achieve focus. However the parallelism issue is not nearly as problematic with long lenses, so I see no significant disadvantage here. I would also point out that the Ebony gets a tad wobbly, but still useable, when extended for the 450. Again, not really an issue for me as the longest lens I typically use is a 300.

Enter the Shen Hao. IMO there is so little conclusive information about this camera, I think it deserves a bit of additional commentary. First off, it is not what I expected and is NOT another piece-of-junk wooden 4x5 folder! (Come on, let’s be honest – How many of you felt like me, that this Chinese wanna-be wood folder would be anything more than another crap wooden 4x5?) Frankly I am surprised at the build quality. The woodwork is excellent and as good if not superior to the Ebony – and I used to be a woodworker, so that is saying something. The metalwork is also of surprisingly high quality, well machined in gloss-black finished aluminum. It is certainly better than the Nagoaka/Ikeda/Osaka class, though not nearly as refined as the Ebony’s beautifully machined titanium fixtures. I’d place it about on par with the Wista/Tachihara cameras I’ve seen, though the Shen has rear shift and its woodwork is superior. All knobs are where they should be, easy to access and backed by Teflon washers for very smooth operation. Focus is also quite smooth. Both the rear and front base-tilt standard bars are spring-loaded and snap solidly into their zero positions – a real nice touch for a cheap camera. It is made of a walnut-stained hardwood that appears to be teak (or tigerwood) and combines nicely with the black bellows and gloss-black hardware. The rear axial swing and shift are accomplished with hardware that appears to be copied directly from the Ebony. It has similar rear axial tilt and rise to the Ebony, though both sets of knobs need to be loosened to impart rise, where on the Ebony they are fully independent. The rear standard of the Shen can be slid forward in a track and the front standard can be slid rearward in a special track allowing the rear and front standards to be positioned close enough at the center of the base to use a 55 on a flat board and NOT have to drop the front bed – a very clever feature, especially if like me you use wider lenses very often. Add the optional bag bellows ($99) and you have a very viable wideangle 4x5! Since both standards are in their normal tracks, they remain parallel unless you specifically add tilt or swing and thus avoids the parallelism issue the Ebony has with short lenses. Score a big point for the under-dog. An unanticipated surprise was that the Shen's GG was also in perfect alignment with the film plane!

Now for some Shen Hao nits. First off, it has a maximum bellows extension of 360mm – and to get there, you have to use the same forward-base/rear-axis tilt and rise combo the Ebony uses for 450mm lenses. Next, when the front section is fully extended, there is too little support between it and the rear base and the camera is just plain wobbly. To use the 300, I would impart the base/axis tilts for the added extension, and then move the front section back into the rear the couple inches gained. This makes the camera rigid enough for regular use of a compact 300 at near infinity, though in reality I would say this camera is probably usefully limited to 240mm lenses if you plan on including on closer foreground elements in your image. The bullseye bubble level on the rear standard is small and difficult to see in direct light. IMO it is only useful for coarse leveling, so for critical work plan on bringing a separate level. There is NO level at all on the front standard – something I use a lot on my Arca to confirm zero – so another ding. The only front movements are rise/fall, swing and base tilt. Axial front tilt is only the coarse rearward adjustment available to gain added extension. The minor plus of this arrangement is that front rise/fall rides in a slotted track and remains true. The spring on the back is a rather flimsy single-leaf, unfortunately quite similar to the aforementioned Nagoaka and only time will tell how well it holds up – and weak spring-backs are not a good thing with the Betterlight scanning back. Lastly, the focus can shift slightly when you lock it tight, so a touch-up is required.

So which will I choose? Since the purpose of the camera was primarily as a back-up and ‘for fun’ camera, it won’t see a lot of use and the Shen Hao has a lot to offer for its $500 cost. If however it was going to be my main camera or I planned on using it often I would choose the Ebony. It is overall the better camera, being more flexible and having a wider range of movements. The Shen easily accommodates my most commonly used focal lengths and is easier to use with short lenses. Add that for the price of the Ebony by itself, I could buy the Shen Hao 4x5, add the optional bag bellows AND buy a Shen Hao 8x10 AND still have over $300 left in my wallet for film, the Shen becomes a relative bargain! This causes me to really question the ‘value’ of the Ebony… The Shen operates smoothly and solidly and at its price the Shen becomes almost a disposable view camera – something to consider if trekking into uncertain environments.

Cheers,

If you've got the money - Ebony.

A camera is nothing more than a light tight box. If you want to have a camera that you're not afraid to beat, the Shen Hao is the best bet. If you buy the Ebony, due to cost you may ultimately take fewer risks with it.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Walter Calahan

If you've got the money - Ebony.

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I know it's long, but you obviously did not read the entire post...

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Originally Posted by Jack Flesher

...I would also point out that the Ebony gets a tad wobbly, but still useable, when extended for the 450. Again, not really an issue for me as the longest lens I typically use is a 300...

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Now if only Shen Hao would make a counterpart to the Ebony 45SU (non-folder, enough extension for a 300mm lens, no wide-angle configuration required for wide lenses)...:)

Another option with the Shen is to get a 300 Telephoto design. I have a Fuji 300 T F8 lens that works beautifully on that camera, and allows fairly close focusing. As someone who has shot a Shen Hao for 5+ years now, and has put an old metal Polaroid 545 in it numerous times (I went through a phase where I was only shooting Type 55), the single spring on the back is not a weak point. My ONLY complaint about the camera is the relatively short bellows, as I would like to be able to use a normal (non-telephoto) 300-360 lens on it. The Shen is made of teak, so it can take a beating in some rather harsh climates. If you don't like the dim factory ground glass, a Canham groundglass and fresnel combo fits exactly, which is the only modification I've made to mine. I also really like the interchangeability of the bag bellows- it is very easy to do, and they're quite reasonable in price. They make it so you can use those extreme wide-angle lenses on the camera, and still apply what movements are possible within the image circle. I recently got a Canham 5x7 field camera, which while very very nice, I still prefer my little Shen in a number of ways.

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Originally Posted by snuck

If you buy the Ebony, due to cost you may ultimately take fewer risks with it.

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Only if you treat it like a museum piece instead of a tool (which is what it is). I beat my SV45Ti around (and lenses!) compared to the way others treat their gear, but that's likely because I don't obsess over it. It's just a camera (albeit an expensive one).

Bonsoir
Thanks for your advices about these cameras.
An indirect consequence, little bit hard to explain, for my future 5x7 field I'll choose an Osaka instead of a Shen Hao.
I already have an 4x5 Ebony RWS and a 4x5 Shen Hao.
May be you will find my message rather silly but several days long I was on LF forum to get informations about the low priced 5x7. I was at first interested with the Tachihara then I followed an erratic way to finally take that decision.
I hope it's not a big error.
jean claude

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Originally Posted by Pronier Jean Claude

Bonsoir
Thanks for your advices about these cameras.
An indirect consequence, little bit hard to explain, for my future 5x7 field I'll choose an Osaka instead of a Shen Hao.
I already have an 4x5 Ebony RWS and a 4x5 Shen Hao.
May be you will find my message rather silly but several days long I was on LF forum to get informations about the low priced 5x7. I was at first interested with the Tachihara then I followed an erratic way to finally take that decision.
I hope it's not a big error.
jean claude

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Jean-Claude -

Before you commit to the Osaka over a Shen Hao, look carefully at the specifications. I looked at one before I bought my Canham 5x7. The Osaka is only a double extension (14") vs the Shen-Hao or Canham's triple (22"+/-). The Osaka also has more limited movements. The price on the Osaka and the Shen-Hao are similar, but the Shen uses titanium, whereas the Osaka is brass I believe (chrome or nickel plated, but not sure). The Shen also comes with a Technika adapter board, as well as a front standard sized for Sinar boards. The Technika board adapter is extra for the Osaka.

If you do decide to go with the Shen Hao, they are easy to order direct from the factory.

I think a $500 Chen-Hao camera you can use in bad weather and iffy conditions makes a lot more sense than owning both an Arca and an Ebony. Have fun -

Hmm I got rid of an Ebony because I wanted an Arca Swiss. If I wanted another wood camera it would surely be an Ebony BUT only with a Maxwell screen.

Interesting review. I've also been in a position to field test both Ebony and Shen Hao (5x4) cameras and my findings have been somewhat different to Jack's. Although I was initially impressed by the "out-of-the-box" Shen Hao, after a day or two of use it already showed signs of "poor" quality - paint flaking off metal parts and movements becoming wobbly. However, I didn't really expect anything else considering its price. But the same "issues" can't be said of the Ebony cameras I've used. They still look and function as they did the day they left the packaging. They've been used in all types of weathers here in the UK and they still function 100% perfectly.

The Shen Hao gave the distinct impression that it wouldn't last long.

Ebony cameras are expensive BUT they do last - mine will outlive me I'm sure!

I agree with Jack on one point though - if you want a disposable 5x4 get a Shen Hao, BUT if you want a quality LF camera then the choice is an Ebony.

I've not used the Shen Hao or any other wooden 4x5 for that matter, but a friend and I did a shoot together right after he bought his Shen Hao about 6 months ago (he needed a primer). I used my Toyo AII, and was frankly shocked at what a pice of crap the Shen Hao appeared to be, as COMPARED to the metal Toyo. When everything was locked down the She Hao worked just fine. But unlock anything and it was wobble, wobble, wobble. I trust this is not the case for all wood 4x5's.

I think it would be unreasonable to expect any wood camera to be as sturdy as a metal camera. I had a TOYO metal bodied field camera in the past, and I now have a Shen-Hao (since January 2006). I don't do wilderness trekking, unless you consider the urban environment of the city a wilderness.

I do quite a bit of night imaging, usually two to four minute exposures. In many cities with tall building, there are wind corridors made worse by the proximatey of buildings to each other. When I go along the coast near tall buildings, the wind can be even worse. Under these conditions, I don't have problems with camera shake, nor movement of front and rear standards.

I am not using super heavy lenses, nor much heavier than a Polaroid 405 back (mostly metal). I have yet to have any slippage, nor any blurriness evident in my long night exposures using a Shen-Hao. If the various knobs are not locked down, sure it will move around; so I don't do shots with the knobs unlocked.

The numerous reports I read about people getting good results with a Shen-Hao, and then reports of problems (even at SHUG), indicate to me that some quality control issues may be affecting quality. My own Shen-Hao was not perfect when I got it. I had to add some lube to the geared focus track, and a few other controls, then work all controls through their movements through full range a motion . . . then everything worked smoothly. I now consider the lubing issue a yearly maintenance procedure. I would not expect to need to do any of that when purchasing an Ebony. Interestingly I could have purchased four or five Shen-Hao cameras for the price of an Ebony, then tested and selected the best one (based upon quality control, or lack of quality control) and sold off the rest.

I might buy an Ebony at some point, but the Shen-Hao I have now allows me to generate images that impress others. Simply the size and look of the camera are enough to attract people not into large format. If I wanted to impress other large format photographers, I should be using a Linhof, Ebony, or maybe some other high end camera. Unfortunately, I have this backwards way of thinking that drives me to pick lenses I want to use, backs and film systems (Readyload/Quickload), the movements I need to do my shots, and generates the results I want to achieve. The Shen-Hao does that for me, even though it needed some tuning and was not perfect out of the box.

So this is not an endorsement of a Shen-Hao over an Ebony, since I still would expect the Ebony to be better, and that neither is a metal bodied camera. Anyone considering buying a Shen-Hao should keep in mind that it probably will not be perfect when it arrives. Indeed they might be crap, but you cannot see that in the resulting images.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio

"I used my Toyo AII, and was frankly shocked at what a pice (sic) of crap the Shen Hao appeared to be, as COMPARED to the metal Toyo."

"Indeed they might be crap, but you cannot see that in the resulting images."

I personally am getting really sick and tired of all the Shen-Hao bashing that goes on on this forum. It's almost like you guys take pleasure at insulting these cameras. I have the Shen-Hao 4X5, and have compared it next to several other wood field cameras costing 3 or 4 times as much, and personally feel that the craftsmanship and rigidity of the Shen beats the other cameras. I won't mention any names, but these are cameras that are regularly cannonized (no pun intended) by forum participants. I suppose it's possible that I just got lucky, but it seems like most of us who actually own and use a Shen Hao have been very pleased with ours. How many of the nay-sayers actually have experience using a Shen-Hao?

Shen-Hao is the best thing to happen to LF photography in the last decade. Look at all the cameras they offer, at prices a fraction of competitors. (No, I am not affiliated with the company in any way other than owning one of their cameras). As far as I know, they are the only company to offer a 5X12. People who could only previously dream of shooting large format can now own a camera. A whole new group of photographers can access large format, which is a good thing for all of us. The more LFers there are, the longer they will make us film, and the more emulsions will be available. As far as the comparisons to Ebony, why would someone buy the Ebony when you can get a Shen and a set of 3 lenses for the same price? Is it just purely as a status symbol?

"If I wanted to impress other large format photographers, I should be using a Linhof, Ebony, or maybe some other high end camera."

Interesting comment there, Gordon. Why do you care what other LF photographers think of your camera?

The argument for an Ebony is that their designer really developed a new and original camera. Sure it uses some traditional parts, but overall it is as distinct a new design as any other "great" camera, from the Sinar Norma, Phillips, or Arca to the Hasselblad and Rolleiflex to the Leica and Nikon F. It's in the same league...

The ShenHao is a fine camera but it is essentially a knock off of the Ebony.

Now I won't say that I never bought cheap Chinese/South Asia goods. But if I had the extra cash, I would gladly paid full price for the original in order to reward the talented designer.

Hello Brian Vuillemenot,

I suppose a downside of the internet and forums is that irony and sarcasm are lost in the typing. You quoted my statement, but I hope you realize that it was irony and sarcasm. Just to be absolutely clear I own a Shen-Hao HX45A-II and I am quite happy with it, to the point that I would buy another Shen-Hao. I am also one of the early members of the Yahoo Shen-Hao Users Group, or SHUG as known by participants there.

As for my other comment, again the irony and sarcasm seems to be lost in the message. I apologize that I cannot be in person to make those comments, since I would state the same thing, but maybe the actual irony and sarcasm would come through as exactly that. I could give a toss what other photographers think of my gear; all of it is tools that enable me to express my creative vision, and nothing more. If I was filthy rich, I would still probably buy the same gear I now use; in reality I am about as starving as most starving artists could be; meaning that I bought almost everything used. In fact, that Shen-Hao I got in January through Badger Graphics is the first new camera I have ever purchased.

So don't be mistaken by my comments. I have no intention of selling my Shen-Hao, and only wish I had more work that I could use it more often. I do own and use a Shen-Hao, and a glance through the many messages I have posted on SHUG would indicate my enthusiasm for these cameras.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
http://www.allgstudio.com

I owned a Shen-Hao HX45A-II for a while sold it and bought a Toyo 45AII. It was a decent camera, it did what it was designed to do. There were several things I did not like about it, it did not lock down they way I liked, and the rear tilt was particularly annoying to me. But its not a bad camera. I am sure it will work well for years without any problems.

I have been lucky enough to met and spend sometime with the owner of Ebony and his family recently. A truely nice man who puts everything into his cameras. After playing with a couple of his cameras for several hours, there is no comparision. The Ebony is a much better camera made from nicer much material. Movements are silky smooth and it locks down tight. I am now trying to find a way to buy an Ebony 8x10, in a such a way as my wife does not kill me.

If you want a camera that will get the job down and serve you well for years at a decent price, get the Shen-Hao. If you want a truly fantastic camera that is beyond reproach, get the Ebony.

Hope it helps.

Gary

Brian I don't think anyone is knocking Shen Hao but simply stating facts/experiences and we all appreciate that Shen Hao are probably responsible for getting many people into LF due to the price of their cameras. However, I would (again) challenge anyone with a Shen Hao and an Ebony in front of them not to favour the Ebony - sure they cost x4 the price of the Shen Hao but many think the cost is woth it?

Finally as for an Ebony being a "status symbol" I need to disagree. Until last year when I arranged LF workshops here in the UK no one had ever seen my Ebony camera! LF is still a bit of a "novelty" compared to other formats and even when I set up to take a shot, if there are people around, they don't come rushing over crying "Oh my lawd, an Ebony". This applied to lectures at camera clubs, people would ask me what camera I use and a mention of "Ebony" drew blank/disinterested faces as no one had heard of them! EBONY ARE NOT LEICAS - most photographers have heard of "Leica" and IMHO these are "status symbols" because they are "known" - same goes for cars.

These postings "Brand X v Brand Y" are bound to generate feelings/emotions as people defend their choice of camera. But in the cold, hard world of shelling out cash for a camera do you honestly think people would buy an Ebony if they weren't worth buying? If people could get a Shen Hao "of Ebony quality" for a third of the price then Ebony would be out of business? As it is Ebony are working flat out to keep up with demand for their cameras (especially in the 10x8 format) so people are buying them for a reason?

I am guilty (in a previous posting on a similar subject) of describing Shen Hao 5x4 cameras as "crap" - but I made it clear that this was through personal experience and explained my reasons (the camera faults). But (thankfully) many of us live in societies where we can still speak freely and these statements are simply personal expression.

FINALLY! I've seen some fantastic images made with Shen Hao cameras. But I personally feel that using one doesn't instil confidence in the camera and I would rather be able to concentrate on the pictures I (try to make) rather than worrying about controls not being tight/movements being sloppy etc.

Still, let's all be happy - after all they are only cameras :)

Agree with you Frank, when weather is bad I use the Shen 4x5 rather my Ebony which stay in his box. So I'll never know what is the more solid out of the two cameras!
jcp

"I personally am getting really sick and tired of all the Shen-Hao bashing that goes on on this forum."

Valium Brian, or perhaps a generic....

I sell telescopes, many Chiense made, and one thing I notice about any and all Chinese optics - binoculars, telescopes, etc, etc, both the otpics themselves and thehousings, is that quality control is simply all over the place. You will get one unit that is wonderful, and the next time, a complete dog.

One reaosn Ebony and other brands are more expensive are the overall state of quality control. If something doesn't work right, back it goes until it does work right. Many Chinese products, not just optics, strike me that one way they keep the price low is not just lower wages, but an attitude of pump if off the assembly line, and let the customer be the quality control.

So this "Shen-Hao bashing" that I see, is simply the same thing you see on many other internet forums where Chiense products are used. Guys who get a good unit, are amazed at the price they paid for what they got, while others who got one of th eworse units and have gone through the hassle of either trying to use it or return it for another are likely the ones to complain. Very seldom do you ever see two people together at the saem time, with the same product, where in one got a good camera, and the other a dog.

Anyhow, the answer to me is buy a Tachihara to begin with, and if you need more movements than that and are on a limited budget, buy a monorail. :)

joe

"However, I would (again) challenge anyone with a Shen Hao and an Ebony in front of them not to favour the Ebony - sure they cost x4 the price of the Shen Hao but many think the cost is woth it?"

And many are certainly entitled to their opinion that the cost is worth it. However, I owned two Ebonys, the SVTi and the SVTe. I've never owned a Shen Hao but I've played around quite a lot with ones owned by friends. There's no question in my mind that if I were again to buy a 4x5 wood camera it wouldn't be an Ebony (unless I had some special need for one of the non-folding models, which I don't). It might not be a Shen Hao either but there's at least a possibility that it could be a Shen Hao whereas there's no possibility at all that it would be an Ebony.

Hey guys, let's all take a chill pill ;) This review was offered strictly FWIW as an objective comparison of these two cameras *for MY specific purposes*. Obviously others are going to have different purposes and thus make a different decision that better suits their needs.

I think two very salient points have been raised:

1) These cameras are only tools; light-tight boxes that hold a lens and film. If I am a BMW mechanic and work all day long on cars, I'm probably going to have very nice set of Snap-On wrenches in a variety of configurations. However that doesn't mean I'm going to buy a second set of Snap-Ons just to toss in the trunk of my SUV for the once every four years I might need to drag them out and tighten something. Instead I'm probably going to buy whatever set is on sale at the local hardware store and forget about it.

2) Sample variation. As Joseph noted above, Chinese goods are notorious for large variations and I suspect this explains a lot regarding the wide range of opinions on the Shen. Obviously I got one of the good ones, but if you buy from a reputable dealer like Badger or Midwest, returning a defective item is not a big problem.

Cheers,

Hi Brian, I'd be interested to learn, after having owned two Ebony cameras, the reasons why you wouldn't choose an Ebony a third time?

I'm sitting here playing with an Anba Ikeda 5x7 woody. It is really light. But after using Linhofs, Arcas, and Sinars, it feels like it is made from Balsa wood. Locked down you can still move it. It vibrates. It has slop. Not that I can't make a good photo with it, but I have to pay attention when I load the film holder not to shake or wrench the camera too hard. I have to think about waiting for the camera to "settle". It's not a problem with the design or quality -- it is the way it is.

I'll suggest that once you get used to locking down a Technika with a heavy lens and full extension -- and having it feel rock solid -- no wooden camera is going to compare. Since Ebonies are by no means a super-light camera, it begs the question of why you just wouldn't get a Technika instead of an Ebony? Unless you just love the looks and the interesting knobs and features.

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Originally Posted by Frank Petronio

why you just wouldn't get a Technika instead of an Ebony? Unless you just love the looks and the interesting knobs and features.

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He wants it as a back-up for an Arca.

I have a very strong suspicion that Paul Owen got a bad copy of the Shen Hao. Perhaps their QC is not what it should be; I don't know and can't say, as the Shen I have has lasted me more than five years with consistent use in a wide range of environments, including in the rain, ocean salt spray, at 10,000 feet of elevation, in the snow, and in the desert. Does it have the precision of a studio monorail? of course not! But it doesn't flake paint after three days, the movements are no looser now than I would expect them to be for a camera that has seen the use mine has, and all the controls to me seem quite logical and reasonable to use. For the money, I would expect the Ebony to have higher quality control, but for the difference, as has been noted, I could have my Shen Hao overhauled or outright replaced three times before I'd be able to touch an Ebony moneywise. Also, I can say that their customer service is excellent - I contacted them about a knob I lost, and they were willing to send it to me for free if Badger or Midwest did not have it in stock.

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Originally Posted by Ron Marshall

He wants it as a back-up for an Arca.

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Exactly. That and I wanted to be able to use my 65 on a flat board. I considered a Toyo 45 Aii "L" (has the Linhof Tech board front standard) but it is limited to 75mm or 90mm on a flat board, has no rear shift and costs over $1000 used. The Tech IV or V was a possibility, but again are limited with shorter lenses on flat boards. The MT2000 of course was an option, but it costs as much as an Arca -- and if I was going to spend that much, I'd simply buy another Arca, probably a Misura just for something lighter and different ;)

i really, really like my shen-hao...
i needed a camera on a budget and the Shen-hao more than passed my expectations.

I can only relate my own experience of owning a single Shen Hao 4x5 for 2+ years. I will not extrapolate my experience of one camera to encompass the entire output of the factory. People can draw their own conclusions on the statistical worth of a single sample.

Mine has been going strong for the last 2+ years in all the usual UK weathers (though I try not to get it wet as that means the lenses will get wet too!) and so far it has a few scratches on the base where I missed the tripod screw, a small notch on the back where I banged it against a wall and that's about it. It locks down better than my black Gandolfi Variant, it's lighter and has more useful movements and takes my 90mm SA without a fuss.

Yes, the finish on some of the metalwork is not up to Gandolfi/Ebony standards and the spring on the back is a bit simplistic, but all work well and show no signs of flaking. The woodwork looks to my untrained eye to be the equal of any I have seen elsewhere, and as people with a trained eye have related their positive opinions, I feel entirely comfortable with that. Teak is softer than many other hardwoods so it probably takes less to dent the finish than something like the Ebony with its famously hard, hardwood.

I can see no conceivable reason for me to hand over another 1500 - 2000 of my hard earned beer tokens on an Ebony (or any other 4x5 of the type). Perhaps another hundred or so to get better quality metalwork, but beyond that, no. It does the job and it does it well.

Cheers, Bob.

I already have a sinar 5x7 camera, very strong and rigid but difficult to walk a trip in the country. Heavy weight and difficult to fold in a bag.
I'm looking to a lightweight camera 5x7 format to be abble to contact print without a microscope, easy folded and enough rigid to take sharp pictures without waiting several minutes after loading. I wondered about the Canham metal but it's to expensive for the moment, may be it would be better to wait some month and buy the Canham?

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Originally Posted by Pronier Jean Claude

I already have a sinar 5x7 camera, very strong and rigid but difficult to walk a trip in the country. Heavy weight and difficult to fold in a bag.
I'm looking to a lightweight camera 5x7 format to be abble to contact print without a microscope, easy folded and enough rigid to take sharp pictures without waiting several minutes after loading. I wondered about the Canham metal but it's to expensive for the moment, may be it would be better to wait some month and buy the Canham?

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Have a look at the Canham woodman. I was very impressed with it when I spent an hour with it at Westcoast Camera.

Review on this site: http://www.largeformatphotography.in...am/canham.html

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Originally Posted by Paul-Owen

Hi Brian, I'd be interested to learn, after having owned two Ebony cameras, the reasons why you wouldn't choose an Ebony a third time?

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Hi Paul - I've stated my problems with the Ebony cameras I owned in more detail in various other messages and I'd rather not take the time and space to repeat them in full here, you probably can find my earlier comments by searching this forum. But in brief summary: (1) didn't like the three-wheel focusing system that required you to switch from one wheel to another in order to focus with some lenses; (2) didn't like the Fresnels that came with the cameras, replaced one with a BosScreen and today would replace it with a Maxwell screen; (3) didn't like the fact that the bag bellows didn't fit properly and had to be returned for repair; (4) didn't like the way the lens board would sometimes stick at the top as the camera was being set up and wouldn't drop down into the front standard without a lot of fiddling; (5) the cameras, especially the Ti, weren't as stable and precise as I was expecting based on comments I read here and elsewhere.

As I've also said, there were unquestionably many very nice features about the cameras I owned. Had I not come to mine from a metal Technika, and had I not been expecting so much based on all the comments here and elsewhere, I might have been perfectly satisfied with them. As it was I thought they were overrated and overpriced but that's strictly a personal opinion. We all make our own choices as to what we think something is worth and if you and others think the Ebony camera is "worth it" then that's fine, you're certainly entitled to your opinion and it's at least as good as mine. And I should also point out that neither of my cameras had the universal bellows or the asymetrical back, two features that many owners like very much and that no doubt adds to their value.

Another interesting thread. Thanks Jack.

Wodwork for starters. The Chinese have a history of fine wood crafting going back at least 3000 years. Irrelivant but just a point.

My Shen is now nearly 5 years old and has been used very extensively from the freezing conditions of the high Sierras to the unbelievable harshness of the Australian desert. It looks and feels like a new camera. It has not been "babied", it has been treated well but used as a daiy tool.

It is a total pleasure to use, it does have some drawbacks but nothing that once realised and accepted will in any real way cause a dud image.

I can focus a 360mm barrel lens to 12 feet. This does require a bit of manipulation but I get the images regardles.

The camera has more movements than I really need but I can certainly find a use for them because I have them.

After 5 years use the knobs all lock down properly, focussing is still smooth, the bellows are like new, no paint has come off any parts, the ground glass register is perfect.

I can use a flat board from 90 - 360mm with movements.

The Shen would be my perfect camera with another 250mm of bellows -- or more:)

As it stands an image from any camera is determined by the photographer. And buy whatever you can afford. Or more importantly what meets your real needs.

I too had a Shen Hao and now have an Ebony SV45ti.
I was actually quite impressed with the Shen Hao. I thought that it was plenty rigid, but heavy, and was really impressed with the quality of the woodwork and finish. Jack mentioned the ground glass being parallel with the front standard. Mine was not, which bothered me to the point of returning the camera for an exchange. The replacement was better, but still not perfect. I also could not keep the front locked tight when it was extended out with a 300mm lens. I agree that it was a nice to use with the wider lenses. Although it wasn't my ideal camera, I would still recommend it over many other wooden cameras that I have seen at anywhere near that price point.
I subsequently sold the Shen Hao and after going thru several other cameras I have ended up with the Ebony. I have concluded that all cameras have compromises and some do things better than others and no one camera is perfect, but for me, this is my ideal camera. Your ideals may be different, and I reserve the right to change mine at a later date.

FWIW, my Shen 4x5 fell out of the Kirk quick release onto the sandstone at Horseshoe Bend recently. Had a Nikon 90mm lens attached. Not a scratch.

Dave