Backpacking Kardan Suoer Color

I bought a beautiful Kardan Super Color from Ari a while ago and have been trying to come up with a carrying solution. Some would argue that this is not the sort of camera for field work, and I'm inclined to agree, but couldn't resist it. After several months trying to adapt a wheeled suitcase with shoulder strap, I'm about to admit defeat. The whole caboodle, with tripod, weighs 16 kg/40 lb.; imagine what that does to the nerves of the shoulder just standing with it for 10 min., let alone hiking with the damn thing!

I've thought of a proper back pack like the Redwing, with internal cases for lenses etc from Photobackpacker to do the job properly, but there is the problem of what to do with the rail. I had the idea to try and find a rail and cut it down to make a short carrying rail like on the Sinar P or Kardan Color (the Technika-type version), but because of the design of the standards the whole thing still ends up about 9" thick. It was designed for studio use and not meant for backpacking, of course.

There are two other alternatives: i) remove the bellows and rotate the standards so that the whole thing is flat and would fit in an atache case; ii) suspend the camera by its rail upside-down in a deep case, with other gear packed underneath (I did this with a Toyo 810G years ago). I'd still like a backpack solution though, because I'm not getting any younger and understand as the result of this exercise how important it is to have heavy weights like this evenly distributed across hips and shoulders.

I'm wondering if anyone has solved this type of problem successfully, or if there are any good ideas out there.

Many thanks,

Barry.

Considering that a backpacker with modern equipment can easily do a multi-day trip with a 40 lb pack I would say that is to heavy for just a camera setup. However if you are intent on using the camera 40 lb is perfectly doable with a good pack and a waist belt. I would bet you could put the whole thing in a large backpacking back, rail and all. You'd just have to find a way to pad everything properly. If the rail comes off easily you can always strap it to the back off the pack as well.

How long is the rail? Does Linhof make a short rail/extension for your camera.
I'm carrying a Sinar F1 in one of Bruce's modified Kelty Redwings (3100). The camera sits in the bottom, in a cradle that Bruce designed, and the 12 inch rail sticks up, six inch extension rides in side pocket. Plenty of room. If you haven't already, you might investigate reducing the weight of the bits and pieces. My Sinar is about 7 pounds, I would think the Linhof is not too much more than that. But I'm not that familiar with the Linhof monorails.
I was able to shed several pounds by carefully selecting my accessory items. I am a real believer in a monorail as a field camera. Although I admit that I no longer do any multi-day backpacking. Three or four miles from the van is about it for me.
I like the modified Kelty so much I bought a second one (2400) and a Domke insert for my digital gear. Beats any other "Photo" pack I have ever owned.
JD

I backpack a SINAR Norma for several miles at at time. I love the versatility of the monorail in the field. My key to success is DECONSTRUCTION. The SINAR norma is a modular camera, and is transported in either my Osprey Atmos 35 or Keltey Redwing. I am 5'11" tall, so both backpacks are size large. The Norma breaks down into seven basic parts:
-Rail clamp, which stays on the tripod head
-12" rail, I carry a 6" extension if required
-bellows
-front standard
-rear standard
-rail caps x 2
I find that with practice, I have been able to set up or break down this camera in about two minutes, or just slightly longer than it takes to set up my Wisner 4x5 traditional.

I've looked at photos of the Kardan Super Color, and it looks like it should backpack just fine.

As jwanerman mentions, taking it down is an option, and not all that time consuming with some practice.

Many monorail users will disconnect the bellows, turn the standards parallel to the rail and carry the camera flat. Placing the bellows and body into separate plastic bags minimizes any dust issues.

With my Photo Backpacker "cradle" I just move both standards and the tripod block to one end of the rail. The cradle holds the standards while the rail projects up into the pack. There are straps, two on mine, that keep the camera secure while the sides of the cradle protect the lens and ground glass. There are photos on Bruce's web site.

Carrying the camera this way allows me to set up in less time than when I was shooting with a folding field camera as it's always ready to go directly onto the tripod.

But to be honest, an extra minute or two getting the camera set up is not much considering just how slow I am with the view camera anyway. But it sure "feels" like a lot when I've happened on to the "sweet light".

JD

Barry, I'm happy to know you're getting some mileage out of that camera.
If it helps at all, I've since bought a Technikardan, and keep it folded without bellows.
This saves on space (it's a different camera, I know), and allows me to stow the bellows neatly without fear of damage while in transit.
Set-up time is minimal, it's just something that you'll get used to through repetition.
Best of luck, and happy holidays!

Ben Horne is hiking quite a bit with about 60lb. Here's a video where he's packing his backpack. Of course his isnt a monorail, but a few neat tricks in between anyways =)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz-162fNXmw

Hi all, many thanks for your valued comments.

The camera itself is so nice that I must persevere with a solution (after all I used to use a Toyo 810G for landscape).

I guess part of my problem is not knowing just what's available in purpose-built backpacks like the Redwing, particularly whether they're big enough to accomodate this awkward shape.

After the Christmas break I'll email Bruce at Photobackpacker and get some ideas from him. I'm not against dismantling the camera, as long as everything can be carried safely, but would prefer to keep it together to reduce friction damage etc. Pity there isn't a short rail for this model.

Thanks again for the good thoughts, including the link to the Ben Horne video - very interesting.

All have a happy Christmas.

Barry.

I have a Linhof Color Karden 8x10 Triplex with the original tripod head and the heavy duty tripod.

Having given this same setup the identical challenge of making it "field" bound, I honestly feel that the best way to accomplish this objective is as follows;

A lightweight partitioned case is necessary to carry each standard taken down from the rails along with the bellows in a separate compartment. The reason for this breakdown necessity is to keep the carrying dimensions as small as possible recognizing that one still has the tripod head and tripod to deal with along with holders. lenses and other shooting accessories.

As a studio camera, this set up has no equals. As a quasi field camera, compromises must be made to expand its range of usefulness.

Thank you, Michael. Wise words to ponder. I'm coming around to the idea of dismantling the camera for transport. Three compartments - for front and rear standards and bellows - makes sense; the rail can go anywhere. The nice thing about this camera is that everything just clips together. Many thanks. Barry.

Before I spent $200 or more on some custom backpack solution, I'd consider a getting yet another camera that is more easily packable. For $200 you can almost find an entire camera!

Otherwise finding a shorter rail to move the standards onto would be the slickest solution but I imagine the Linhof rails are quite rare. Perhaps a piece of metric-sized Aluminum tubing from Europe would work for transport only? I don't know if there is a groove required.

I think those Kardan Super Colors were intended for traveling commercial photographers who still used hard cases, it was the ancestor to the Technikardan. I also think it was a fair bit less expensive than the Technika, whose front and back it shares (I guess that finely made folding bed/focusing track and rangefinder added a lot of value). Sort of an entry-level drug to the world of Linhof....

Hi- Sorry to be ignorant, but who is Bruce? I am interested in packing a 4x5 Kardan Color 45s. thanks.

http://www.photobackpacker.com = Bruce

Good Guy, Nice Stuff

Frank Petronio strikes again!

: - )

(somewhat inside joke, Frank will get it)

ha first I say spending $200 on a carry solution is silly then I recommend Photobackpacker ;-)

Do it all, twice!

Joseph,

Do you have the modified Redwing P1 or P2?

Stoog

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joseph Dickerson

How long is the rail? Does Linhof make a short rail/extension for your camera.
I'm carrying a Sinar F1 in one of Bruce's modified Kelty Redwings (3100). The camera sits in the bottom, in a cradle that Bruce designed, and the 12 inch rail sticks up, six inch extension rides in side pocket. Plenty of room. If you haven't already, you might investigate reducing the weight of the bits and pieces. My Sinar is about 7 pounds, I would think the Linhof is not too much more than that. But I'm not that familiar with the Linhof monorails.
I was able to shed several pounds by carefully selecting my accessory items. I am a real believer in a monorail as a field camera. Although I admit that I no longer do any multi-day backpacking. Three or four miles from the van is about it for me.
I like the modified Kelty so much I bought a second one (2400) and a Domke insert for my digital gear. Beats any other "Photo" pack I have ever owned.
JD

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I actually have two. An older Redwing 3100, which I believe is the same as the P1, or close. It's the one I use for the Sinar.

The other I bought recently and sent to Bruce for the zipper modification. It's a Redwing 44, which has a capacity of 2450cc if I remember correctly. It's a bit tight for the Sinar, although it will accommodate a mini kit, camera and a couple of lenses. but I haven't tried it yet. I bought it for my digital stuff and am really thrilled with it for that purpose.

Both are very comfortable, considerably more so than the Lowe Pro packs they replaced, Super Trekker and Mini Trekker respectively.

If you'd like I can shoot a couple of images of the packs...well...packed, so you can see how everything fits.

It sounds like Frank maybe works for the Department of Redundancy Department!

JD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frank Petronio

Before I spent $200 or more on some custom backpack solution, I'd consider a getting yet another camera that is more easily packable. For $200 you can almost find an entire camera!

Otherwise finding a shorter rail to move the standards onto would be the slickest solution but I imagine the Linhof rails are quite rare. Perhaps a piece of metric-sized Aluminum tubing from Europe would work for transport only? I don't know if there is a groove required.

I think those Kardan Super Colors were intended for traveling commercial photographers who still used hard cases, it was the ancestor to the Technikardan. I also think it was a fair bit less expensive than the Technika, whose front and back it shares (I guess that finely made folding bed/focusing track and rangefinder added a lot of value). Sort of an entry-level drug to the world of Linhof....

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It's a different beastie to the Color, which used the Tech front and rear standards. Unlike the Color which did have a two-piece rail, the Super Color rail is one-piece, 19" long. In addition the rail has a machined track which would be difficult to duplicate, and which I doubt would be available as a stock extrusion. That's why I was considering looking for an old rail that I could cut down for transport purposes.

I'll persevere. This is a beautiful camera. Although a folding toothpick-wood camera would be easy to backpack, it wouldn't be as nice to use.

Barry.

I think Frank's having a little fun at our or at least the OP's expense, he knows the deal.

Truth is, the OP is a kind of variation of "I want a light, sturdy, and cheap tripod". You can have any two, but not all three.

Same with cameras, sooner or later you're going to have to decide what you can live with. If you HAVE to have custom carrying equipment to carry your gear comfortably, then your gear's too heavy (or the photographer is :D ) or you're just carrying too much stuff and you're not likely to actually carry it often and/or far. A lot of us have been there and done that.

And that's fine if the camera feel is the important thing versus possibly not making it to where you want.

All cameras have warts, and bigger cameras have bigger warts. If you traded for an Arca/Ebony/Chamonix/Canham you'd just have a different set of warts.

Cheers, Steve

I'm sorry, I thought it was the older one with the round monorail and Technika back. Funny because I once (or twice?) owned the same camera you have but Linhof's naming always throws me.

My friend David bought the last one I had and cut the rail down for use with 90mm lenses and a bag bellows. Unfortunately I don't think they ever sold a short rail and finding a spare one to sacrifice could be difficult - you might almost have to buy another used camera, perhaps a cheap one with a bad bellows?

(You could use the frames from the bad bellows to get a new bellows made by camerabellows.uk perhaps?)

Other than that they are very fine cameras. The problem is the strong "U" shaped standards make the camera pretty wide, and the one pc monorail is a hinderance.

Brian's joke was that I actually encourage people to buy these and here you are frustrated with having to pack it! You're supposed to have backed me up and tell everyone that is but a minor triviality ;-p

Perhaps the simplest way to go is simple to pop the plastic cover off one end of the rail, remove that little stopper screw if necessary, and walk the standards off the rail. Pack it disassembled and it will be a lot more compact. Get a ground glass protector and some Neoprene wraps for the standards and slip the 19" rails onto the side of the pack like a ski pole or water bottle.

I had Frank's old one for a while in 45. A VERY nice camera. i sort of thought that I could chop the rail then figure out some sort of cool carry system. I gave up.

Rails are very cheap at KEH. I think mine was $30. No big deal to cut it down but the lenght all depends on the lenses you use.

You might consider stepping back into the 1950s; well before the cool, expensive internal frame packs out there now.

Have you considered a packboard? It is just a frame with a waist belt and shoulder straps. You strap onto it the odd shaped item. The kardan could be carried in the traditional carry case just strapped to the board. Perhaps not the most comfortable or light set up but it would work well.

I would really think what sort of transport you will really do as opposed to what you "think" you will do.

Thanks Joseph.

Glad to hear that the Sinar fits in the P1.
The website indicates that the P2 is out of stock and he's not sure when(if) it'll be back.

I have a Sinar F1 and have been looking for this solution!

Steve and Frank, truth is the OP is a 68 year-old who still lives like he's 40 but is just realising his real age. He's in denial where quality is concerned, refusing to admit that he might have to compromise in order to survive.

What seemed a minor triviality suddenly came unstuck when the first attempt at packaging was completed. Ten minutes standing with the gear (below) slung around the neck resulted in numbness in the arm on that side, no doubt resulting from 40 lbs. (with tripod) pressing on major nerves and arteries in the neck/upper shoulder. Didn't bode well for a day's bushwalking! Thus my plea for ideas.

Thanks to all for your contributions. Looks like a proper backpack, with thoughtful dismantling and packing of the components, is needed.

Barry.

That's a nicely set up case as it is right now - why not just plop it into a baby - err, "jogging" stroller and be done with it? With the stroller - cart you could always toss in a keg or two of beer, you are in Australia aren't you?

Stoogley,

I bought both of my Redwings off the internet, Bruce didn't have what I wanted when I needed it, and then sent them to Bruce for the zipper modification. By the way, my 3100 has the waterproof zipper, the smaller one has the non-waterproof. I definitely prefer the later. Zips easier with less binding, and I use a rain cover anyway. Just a thought.

I found the 3100 on sale for $60 at REI. Now might be a good time to be looking for sales.

JD

I've thought of a jogging stroller - a good idea on formed tracks and pathways, but we have few of those here. Most places I seem to go are faint foot pads through the bush, virtually impossible to used anything wheeled on.

A strong point in favour of a buggy is being able to pack a couple of bottles of nice red ;) . (Aussies used to swill a lot of beer, but nowadays we consume more wine than beer, which is as it should be :p )

Cheers, Barry.

1: Remove the front and rear standards from the rail. To do this remove the stop block at the end of the geared track on one end of the rail. Then slide the standards off.
2: Put a large rubber band around the two standards which are now held together by the bellows.
3: Put the standards in a bag.
4: Attach the monorail to the tripod straps of your case.

OR
1: Detach the bellows from either the front or the rear standard.
2: Put a rubber band around the standard with the bellows attached.
3: Rotate the front and rear standards so they are parallel to the monorail. That means you need to move the standards far enough apart so they are both parallel to the rail.
4: Put the camera in an attache shaped case. Or a pack long enough to hold the folded camera. The lens and lensboard should be mounted on the standard without the bellows for transport.

Thanks, Bob, very helpful. I'm currently favouring something like that as the best solution. I was previously thinking of some sort of short rail; can you tell me if it's possible to buy these rails still, and whether it would be worthwhile cost-wise to cut one up for transporting? Cutting up a new rail is not a nice thought and I probably won't go there.

Also while you're at it can you tell me the year of my 6x9 Technika (82 996) and this Kardan JBL (8 016 103). I appreciate your tireless help to this forum.

Many thanks,

Barry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barry Kirsten

Thanks, Bob, very helpful. I'm currently favouring something like that as the best solution. I was previously thinking of some sort of short rail; can you tell me if it's possible to buy these rails still, and whether it would be worthwhile cost-wise to cut one up for transporting? Cutting up a new rail is not a nice thought and I probably won't go there.

Also while you're at it can you tell me the year of my 6x9 Technika (82 996) and this Kardan JBL (8 016 103). I appreciate your tireless help to this forum.

Many thanks,

Barry.

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The current rails have the same gear track as your camera but they have a different profile so yes, you can buy the current rail as a special order item from Marflex.

Check the serial number again, I don't have that one listed.

82996 is an early Technika IV from about1948.

Thanks, Bob. You wouldn't be surprised how nice the 6x9 Technika is for 1948 - it's beautiful!

I made a mistake with the serial number of the JBL. Looking at it with a good lens I see that it's 8 015 103.

Thanks again. Barry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barry Kirsten

Thanks, Bob. You wouldn't be surprised how nice the 6x9 Technika is for 1948 - it's beautiful!

I made a mistake with the serial number of the JBL. Looking at it with a good lens I see that it's 8 015 103.

Thanks again. Barry.

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Barry,

Sorry but I can't find any camera that has a serial number in the 8015xxx series.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Salomon - HP Marketing

Barry,

Sorry but I can't find any camera that has a serial number in the 8015xxx series.

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That's OK, thanks for trying. BTW I'm playing around with various suggestions and like the idea of rotating the standards in line with the rail. I think that's a winner - bottom layer of lenses/film/meter/filters, padding layer, flattened camera next, dark cloth on top. Definitely worth trying. Will upload results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barry Kirsten

That's OK, thanks for trying. BTW I'm playing around with various suggestions and like the idea of rotating the standards in line with the rail. I think that's a winner - bottom layer of lenses/film/meter/filters, padding layer, flattened camera next, dark cloth on top. Definitely worth trying. Will upload results.

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That is how the camera was packaged new and is the factory recommended way to transport it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barry Kirsten

That's OK, thanks for trying. BTW I'm playing around with various suggestions and like the idea of rotating the standards in line with the rail. I think that's a winner - bottom layer of lenses/film/meter/filters, padding layer, flattened camera next, dark cloth on top. Definitely worth trying. Will upload results.

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Yes, please show us what you managed to do.

I have a Kardan Bi 5 x 7 and when I got it I had one rail segment shortened by a good machine shop and then got an additional rail segment. I made the short rail just long enough that the clamp that holds the rail to the tripod would fit in between the standards with an eighth inch of wiggle room. I used to haul it around with an old Kelty aluminum pack frame that I modified - worked pretty well.

Of course I'm 40 years older now so I don't go to far from the car, but when I was a kid I used to cross country ski with the Linhof on my back.

Just get an external frame pack like a kelty super tioga 5100... carry it comfortably without having to tear it down.

Cheap and super comfortable (for a pack)

Thanks Jim and Robert. I have a Kelty Redwing on order and with luck it'll arrive today. I can then experiment with various possibilities. I know it's possible to carry cameras like the Sinar F in this pack without dismantling them (Bruce at Photobackpacker has a very nice solution for this), but the Kardan is a lot wider, which gives the whole thing a very large girth in the set-up configuration. So I'll play around with it and let you know what works.

Barry posted an image on page 2 of something that looks VERY similar to my Linhof Super Color ST. It has the rectangular rail... In an effort to make my camera more field friendly, I borrowed the longest lens I am ever likely to use (150mm) marked where it focuses at infinity on the rail. Then, I separated the track from the rail by removing the two grub screws, and removed the stopper on the bottom rear of the rail. I took my trusty hack saw and took about 10" off the rail length. I then trimmed down the track and tapped a new hole for the rear grub screw, replaced the stopper on the bottom rear of the shortened rail and then replaced the plastic plug in the end of the rail.. It didn't save a lot of weight but it did make the whole shebang easier to transport. It also makes it easier to shoot, as I always have the front standard right at the very front of the rail because I shoot wide angle and do not want the rail in my images. with the longer rail it was hard to get close to the GG to inspect the composition (especially with wide lenses) with the shorter rail its a piece of cake.

As for hiking with it, I rack the two standards right up against eachother, leave the camera mounted on the tripod (with no lens fitted) I made a custom drawstring bag that throws over the camera and the drawstring tightens the bag around the tripod head so tree branches, insects and prevailing weather conditions can not come in contact with the camera... I put the lenses and film holders/roll film back in a Lowepro backpack, and carry the camera/tripod combo over my shoulder... A field camera would be easier to carry, But I do like all the movements I have with my monorail..

Thats how I do things... Works well if you are keen on cutting that rail down.

If not, remove the front and rear standards from the rail, put them, your film holders and lenses in a big back pack, put the rail in the tripod holder on the back pack and carry your tripod in your hand (makes for a handy hiking stick! :) )

Thanks Alex. I didn't notice your reply until now. I had thought about carrying it on a short rail, but so far haven't had any luck finding a rail to cut down. I wouldn't cut down the main rail because I sometimes photograph small objects like fungi, filmy ferns etc.

And now for the final, horrible end to this saga...

I bought a very nice Kelty Redwing P1 backpack from Bruce at Photobackpacker, then had him make some nice enclosures for it which would allow the camera to be carried in the setup position, as well as extra compartments for lenses, filters etc. Here is what it looks like, mounted on its backing board - a really top quality job:
Attachment 68736

It was a very tight fit - the zipper barely closed over the top corner of the camera enclosure - but it was always going to be difficult because we were at the limit of the backpack's girth.

Then last Saturday afternoon whilst out shopping our house was burgled. Two laptops, cash, jewellery and other small items of value were taken - AND CARRIED AWAY IN MY NEW BLOODY BACKPACK! Now I have the backing board and enclosures as pictured, but no backpack.

I now have a real problem. I grudgingly have to admit that this camera is not suitable for backpacking. As much as I love it and really wish I could use it in the field, I've come to the conclusion that I'll have to find an alternative. The insurance would buy me another Redwing, but I feel it's not the answer. I'm pretty upset - not so much about the burglary, but about not being able to enjoy this wonderful camera.

An odd twist to the story: they took my loupe and spot meter, but passed over 6 LF lenses mounted on panels and my little 6x9 Linhof.

All in all, a very sad experience, and I'm reluctantly looking for a wooden camera.:(

Barry.

40# is still 40# no matter how you squeeze it. This is a camera for tripod use with limited mobility. Don't kid yourself -- just deal with it (if you can).

Barry,
I'm so sorry to hear about the burglary; having once had ALL of my equipment stolen, I can sympathize.
At least you have insurance (which I didn't have at the time).
I'd say don't give up on this camera yet; yes, a real field camera will easily fold into nothing, but you'll lose the flexibility of a monorail, and I think you might find that a regrettable trade-off.
When you feel a little better, give it some more thought.

Its a heavy beast compared to my mates Tachihara 4x5 but I wouldnt trade it for the world... Especially not after seeing shots from his Tachihara with a 47/5.6 XL vs the shots from my camera with his 47mm... In his camera there is no avoiding getting the camera bed in the image... With mine I rack the lens right to the front of the rail and focus using the rear standard. The camera is nowhere to be seen in images, even vertical compositions using significant front fall.. I wouldnt go to a wooden camera unless it focused from the rear standard...The only ones I've seen that can focus from the rear are not folders and dont offer a significant drop in weight over my kardan.

Barry,
If you can, try out the Lowepro Roller x100, x200, or x300.
While not a backpack per se, its inner case can be removed and used with back straps; it's also quite roomy and very, very well-made.
I had a chance to try it out last week, and would have kept it if I really needed it.
you can put the standards parallel to the rail, and I believe it would fit comfortably in either the x200 or the x300.
Worth a shot, imo.
Best of luck!

Thanks Ari. Another option would be to carry it flattened out in another Kelty P1. I was leaning toward this in the first place, but Bruce talked me into the other solution. There is room in the Kelty for several 5" high compartments like the two I already have, with the camera resting on top of them. Worth another thought.

I've also considered cutting the rail at the fully compressed length, allowing the camera to be carried in the set-up position. The trouble with that is the difficulty shaping an adapter piece to allow the two sections of rail to join, because of the complex rail profile. The adapter would be permanently fixed into the long portion and would neatly mate with the shorter rail and then locked into place by a pin. Sounds complicated, but it's do-able. I thought of buying a rail in the US and sending it to Grimes, who would surely do a great job of it, but I fear the cost would be more than the camera is worth.

Another option - if money was no option - would be to keep the JBL for home use (especially using the brass lens I have coming) and buying the Technikardan S that's currently available. I wish!

Thanks again,

Barry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barry Kirsten

I've also considered cutting the rail at the fully compressed length, allowing the camera to be carried in the set-up position. The trouble with that is the difficulty shaping an adapter piece to allow the two sections of rail to join, because of the complex rail profile. The adapter would be permanently fixed into the long portion and would neatly mate with the shorter rail and then locked into place by a pin. Sounds complicated, but it's do-able. I thought of buying a rail in the US and sending it to Grimes, who would surely do a great job of it, but I fear the cost would be more than the camera is worth.

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I fear you would be right; in any case, it isn't worth it, I think.

The right case is out there, you might have to try them all before finding the right one.
I go through a tortuous process when it comes to cases, and my wife hates those times as well :), but in the end, I always find what I need.
The Kardan is certainly worth finding a proper hiking case.
So, stick with it!