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Are you in the Homeland Security database?
I am now! Was "caught" taking photos of a wall of a building which turns out belongs to the New Jersey Transit system. The NJ Path police weren;t rude but they said there was a law of some sort that prohibited photography on/of NJ property without prior permits. They asked if my camera was digital - I showed them the RB67 Pro SD - with the tele lens -- and they didn't quite know what to make of it so I reassured them that it wasn' digital. They seemed to imply that if it was digital, then they would have erased the photos. Anyway, they took down my ID info and said it would go into their Homeland Security database. I'll have to look into the legal implications and options. Good thing I already had all the photos I wanted already.
Funny thing is that the New York subway system and the NJ Transit system doesn't have such a policy but the PATH system does? Talk about self-glorification!
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
I remember as a kid that one of the signature outrages of the Soviet Union was that you could be detained just for taking pictures in the wrong place. Magazines routinely had to explain this when reporting on some incident or other because the very idea was so foreign.
Thank god we won.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
poco
I remember as a kid that one of the signature outrages of the Soviet Union was that you could be detained just for taking pictures in the wrong place. Magazines routinely had to explain this when reporting on some incident or other because the very idea was so foreign.
Thank god we won.
You don't have to tell me. I'm Iranian - and guess what? I was hassled just ONCE in Iran for taking photos - and even then it was minimal compared to this incident. Oh the irony.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyrus
Oh the irony.
When all the citizens are in the database, what have you got? And how does it make anyone safer? Except the bureaucrats of course, who are safer in their jobs (of overseeing the database). After all, that's what's really important, yes? And that, I think, is the real irony here.
And if it makes you feel any better, I'm sure I'm in dozens of government databases. You aren't alone.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruce Watson
When all the citizens are in the database, what have you got? And how does it make anyone safer?.
Twice when going to exhibitions at the Armory in NYC, I and all attendees had to show a picture ID. Why? The people checking didn't check anyone against a database. They didn't have a list of people to exclude. There was no age requirement (for alcohol purchase which wasn't an option). Zippo....except to go through the exercise. Since a low yield suicide bomber wearing a sport coat or a suit could probably have gotten in, what was the point? Officious idiots abound it seems.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John Voss
Twice when going to exhibitions at the Armory in NYC, I and all attendees had to show a picture ID. Why? The people checking didn't check anyone against a database. They didn't have a list of people to exclude. There was no age requirement (for alcohol purchase which wasn't an option). Zippo....except to go through the exercise. Since a low yield suicide bomber wearing a sport coat or a suit could probably have gotten in, what was the point? Officious idiots abound it seems.
Why not just say no? Seriously. If it really upsets you (and it would me, in this case) refuse to comply. The worst that can happen is that you're refused entrance. If enough people stop meekly complying with BS like this, it'll stop.
When people in stores ask me for phone numbers or addresses or zip codes, I refuse. When they ask me to look in my bag on the way out, I refuse. If you don't like it, don't do it.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Earlier thread, same subject: http://www.largeformatphotography.in...ad.php?t=26475
In my case, police also said they had to file a report, didn't specifically say it would go into the Homeland Security database, but that's my guess where it ended up.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter Lewin
Actually Peter, your experience is worse than mine. I was technically on the transit system's property - you seem to have been in a totally public place!
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
My money's on the possibility they were blowing smoke up your arse with the purpose of:
1. either trying to scare you and/or everybody in general (for whatever purposes)
and/or
2. feeling powerful.
I mean - think about it - WHY would any sane person go into law enforcement or security except for access to cheap and easy power...?
I'll happily go on record to say that I think the whole Homeland Security/Patriot Act thing is just a huge cash scam.
Think about this: if you were ACTUALLY trying to catch criminals/terrorists whatever - the very LAST thing you'd probably want to do is go announcing it all over that you're tapping the phones and monitoring everyone's e-mail. You'd say "no - we're NOT going to do that because we believe in liberty or freedom or whatever" and then you go and actually DO it. If they're actually OUT there... you'd be FAR more successful with a tactic like that - it seems to me. They just want to scare the public into submission IMO. That's the way I see it, anyway.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peter Lewin
In my case, police also said they had to file a report, didn't specifically say it would go into the Homeland Security database, but that's my guess where it ended up.
If you are really curious, you can always file a Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA) request and find out if there really is a file on you?
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JW Dewdney
They just want to scare the public into submission IMO. That's the way I see it, anyway.
It's all about Fear. It is tempting to use it as a power tool and it gives a good short-term return, so to speak. But the problem with Fear as a rulling method is that people get numb to it after a while, so it requires constant increases. The problem is that the byproducts of fear are resentment and apathy and people can only be scared so much. When the fear peak is reached, it starts loosing its effectivness, but the resentment and apathy remain and resentment keeps growing.
It was not us that brought the Communism down, it was apathy and resentment on the part of their own population. Nothing worked properly because of apathy, and when the fear wore out, resentment brought the whole thing crashing down as a house of cards.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
So you were taking pictures of a wall. You were politely asked to stop. Your film wasn't taken, your camera wasn't confiscated, you weren't arrested, you weren't charged with anything, nobody has claimed you're a terrorist, etc. etc. All that has happened is that some functionary has told you that you're now in a data base (which may or may not be true and if true may or may not have any significance). And you consider yourself having been subjected to a major hassle, sufficiently bad that you post a message here to let us know of this horrible event and to tell us how much less hassled you were in Iran? Then you follow that up with links to stories that you apparently collect in order to convince yourself or others of just how misguided our national security efforts are.
The fact of the matter is that millions upon millions of photographs are made in the U.S. every day without a peep from anyone and without any news stories being written about it. I've yet to see a headline along the lines of "Photographer Makes Photograph of Building, Nobody Hassled Him." The vast majority of people in this country - probably 99.99% - go about their business every day without being hassled about anything and certainly without being put on any list. But let one nut security officer or bureaucrat overstep the bounds or let a name get put on a list that shouldn't be on it and immediately we get the kind of stuff you collect and post here.
Sorry but when I read of the things going on all over the world every day I'm not too excited about the fact that you couldn't make more pictures of a wall, that you may or may not be on some list, and that you may or may not suffer some unknown consequences of being on whatever list you may or may not be on.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brian Ellis
So you were taking pictures of a wall. You were politely asked to stop. Your film wasn't taken, your camera wasn't confiscated, you weren't arrested,
Sorry but when I read of the things going on all over the world every day I'm not too excited about the fact that you couldn't make more pictures of a wall, that you may or may not be on some list, and that you may or may not suffer some unknown consequences of being on whatever list you may or may not be on.
Well Brian, for the sake of others who may be interested, the first issue is that requiring a permit of photographers is still the official policy of the Port Authority system - where as in the NY and NJ Transit system has had to bow to constitutional law. See, requiring permits for the exercise of First Amendment rights constitutes a little something we call Prior Restraint - which is presumtively unconstitutional - especially when, as it turns out, the NJPATH makes a habit of routinely denying permits based on the arbitatrary wishes of some faceless bureaucrat, which has no relationship to any legitimate security issue (note that the terrorist can take all the photos they want with camera phones)
Second, the police can be perfectly polite and friendly - and still violate your constitutional rights. Its not the police - its the policy that's at question. It doesn't have to amount to a "major hassle" - its still a violation YOUR rights too not just mine. Even if only 1 person's rights are violated by an unconstitutional law,it affects us ALL because we are ALL going to have to look over our shoulders for Big Brother and worry about what he may think of our photography.
Third, it may not seem like a big deal, but its these little invasions of rights that add up. First, they came for the photographers . . . If more people stood up and asserted their rights, we'd have fewer problems.
Fourth, the fact that I don't know what the list is that my name may or may not be on is IN ITESELF a violation of due process and federal/state privacy laws. I shouldn't have to guess, I should be able to challenge/expunge/correct the information as with say, my credit record - but guess what! Homeleand Security has exempted itself from most forms of FOIA by creative interpretation of the applicable exemptions, so I can't ever know for certain what list I am on, what use is made of this list now or tomorrow, and how to get off of it. Tens of thousands of Americans are on various lists that prevent them from getting credit or getting on airplanes - and they have no way of knowing what list they're on, why, and how to get off of the list. Yes, you read that right.
And finally, I know that your life is at oh such a higher level than mine, but please forgive me for starting this thread. My gosh, how dare I waste the electrons that bounced off your precious eyeballs! The shame! The shame!
And yes, apparently it does take someone from Iran to remind Americans of their own values and freedoms that they take for granted once in a while.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BrianShaw
If you are really curious, you can always file a Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA) request and find out if there really is a file on you?
Yeah, good luck with that. Two years later, when they get around to responding, you'll quickly discover the "law enforcement" exemption to the FOIA, plus the hodge-podge of state FOIA exemption laws, as have all the other people who are trying to figure out why they're suddenly not allowed to board airplanes or can't finance a car purchase. Then, you'll have to wait another few years before you have "exhausted administrative remedies" so you can go to court . . . and wait some more...
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
I said nothing about the legality or merits of any governmental body's actions about anything. I also said nothing about the quality of my life vs your life or what lists anyone is on and how they can or cannot get off the lists. In fact I can't find anything in your "response" that's relevant to anything I said. I made two points and two points only - that I didn't think your "hassle" was much of a hassle at all and that when it comes to the types of things discussed in the links you provided it's a good idea to keep everything in perspective. That's all I said. However, as a retired lawyer with two law degrees and 31 years of experience in the practice of law, I will tell you that when it comes to the 1st and 14th amendments to our constitution things aren't quite as simple or clear cut as you seem to think they are and that Wikpedia is not an accepted source for accurate and complete information about legal principles.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brian Ellis
I said nothing about the legality or merits of any governmental body's actions about anything. I also said nothing about the quality of my life vs your life or what lists anyone is on and how they can or cannot get off the lists. In fact I can't find anything in your "response" that's relevant to anything I said. I made two points and two points only - that I didn't think your "hassle" was much of a hassle at all and that when it comes to the types of things discussed in the links you provided it's a good idea to keep everything in perspective. That's all I said. However, as a retired lawyer with two law degrees and 31 years of experience in the practice of law, I will tell you that when it comes to the 1st and 14th amendments to our constitution things aren't quite as simple or clear cut as you seem to think they are and that Wikpedia is not an accepted source for accurate and complete information about legal principles.
I'll let others decide what you said and didn't say, and I don't think this is the place to cite Corpus Juris Secondum or Blackstone's Commnetaries. Wikipedia does a fine enough job. Keeping things is perspective means exactly what? Photographers minding their own business aren't beaten like Rodney King? Is that the standard we're applying now? Personally I am not so concerned about being on a list since frankly I take it as a badge of honor as a card-carrying member of the ACLU. I'm probably on many lists. But that doesn't make it right, does it? We shouldn't live in a dossier society, where everyone has a file with the secret police. But that's what we've become.
And Oh, I too have two law degrees, so lets not pull out our academic/professional wee wees to compare whose is bigger, shall we?
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Two lawyers in a pissing contest. What a disgusting spectacle.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyrus
And yes, apparently it does take someone from Iran to remind Americans of their own values and freedoms that they take for granted once in a while.
I don't think so. "Talk about self-glorification!" ;)
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
You have two law degrees and they didn't teach you how to spell Corpus Juris Secundum? Or that Blackstone's Commentaries, being commentaries on the laws of England in the 18th century, have minimal relevance to the matters about which you're expounding? But regardless of that, I'm happy to learn (and not surprised) that you're a card-carrying member of the ACLU. I served as a local counsel to the ACLU for some years, back in the days when it was concerned with protecting the rights of all as opposed to protecting only those who agreed with and could assist in advancing its political agenda.
I'll leave you with your pride at being a card-carrying member of the ACLU and on many government lists, both are certainly achievements of which to be proud. However, I think we've already gone well beyond anything relevant to a large format photography forum.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brian Ellis
You have two law degrees and they didn't teach you how to spell Corpus Juris Secundum? Or that Blackstone's Commentaries, being commentaries on the laws of England in the 18th century, have minimal relevance to the matters about which you're expounding?
Oh fer chrissakes I was just making a point on a discussion forum as I sip a latte and work on other tihings. Get over yourself. I don't know why you feel so threatened by all this. Heres a suggestion: if you think this sutff isn't important DON"T READ IT. No on is forcing you!
You raise a point then decide its not relevant to LF photography. SHeesh brian, you woke up on the wrong side of hte bed again.
PS: Blackstone's COmmentaries has a particular relevance to prior restraint, and is particularly applicable to the US since it greatly influenced the US constitutional view of the issue.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Believe me, if you make a Homeland Security list you will know it the next time you fly. No reason to go piddling around with the FOIA.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Hey... I have an idea... let's discuss the type of film used to take the picture... or how the pictures come out... or whether (or not) a 6x7 is large format. This is the "Large Format Forum" after all!
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BrianShaw
Hey... I have an idea... let's discuss the type of film used to take the picture... or how the pictures come out... or whether (or not) a 6x7 is large format. This is the "Large Format Forum" after all!
The issue of laws re: photo permits is relevant to location photography. So, hey, I have another idea. I don't tell you what to talk about, and you don't tell me what to talk about? Deal?
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
I wasn't telling you what to talk about. You can talk about whatever you want. I enjoy most of your threads. I just thought the discussion had kinda played out. Really... what kind of film were you using, and how did those pics come out?
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyrus
Well Brian, for the sake of others who may be interested, the first issue is that requiring a permit of photographers is still the official policy of the Port Authority system - where as in the NY and NJ Transit system has had to bow to constitutional law. See, requiring permits for the exercise of First Amendment rights constitutes a little something we call
Prior Restraint - which is presumtively
unconstitutional - especially when, as it turns out, the NJPATH makes a habit of routinely denying permits based on the arbitatrary wishes of some faceless bureaucrat, which has no relationship to any legitimate security issue (note that the terrorist can take all the photos they want with camera phones)
Second, the police can be perfectly polite and friendly - and still violate your constitutional rights. Its not the police - its the policy that's at question. It doesn't have to amount to a "major hassle" - its still a violation YOUR rights too not just mine. Even if only 1 person's rights are violated by an unconstitutional law,it affects us ALL because we are ALL going to have to look over our shoulders for Big Brother and worry about what he may think of our photography.
Third, it may not seem like a big deal, but its these little invasions of rights that add up. First, they came for the photographers . . . If more people stood up and asserted their rights, we'd have fewer problems.
All good and true arguments except for one small detail - I believe you stated you were on private property - the owner of private property has every right forbid photography while you're on his property.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyrus
Fourth, the fact that I don't know what the list is that my name may or may not be on is IN ITESELF a violation of due process and federal/state privacy laws. I shouldn't have to guess, I should be able to challenge/expunge/correct the information as with say, my credit record - but guess what! Homeleand Security has exempted itself from most forms of FOIA by creative interpretation of the applicable exemptions, so I can't ever know for certain what list I am on, what use is made of this list now or tomorrow, and how to get off of it. Tens of thousands of Americans are on various lists that prevent them from getting credit or getting on airplanes - and they have no way of knowing what list they're on, why, and how to get off of the list. Yes, you read that right.
Hmm - I don't remember anywhere in the constitution where it says I can't be put on a list or that I have a right to know what lists my name happens to be on. Putting you on a list doesn't violate your rights - it's what is done with that list that may or may not violate your rights.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
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Originally Posted by
dslater
All good and true arguments except for one small detail - I believe you stated you were on private property - the owner of private property has every right forbid photography while you're on his property. .
I said I was on NJ Path system property whch is not "private property" but is government property open to the public and in any case there's a public easement there. Its about as private as the New York subway system, and yes, your constitutional rights follow you there too.
Some restrictions are allowed on first amendment activity but subject to strict scrutiny and time-place-manner limits.
A general arbitrary ban on un-permitted photography doesn't meet that standard, which is why photography is allowed on other transit system.
Quote:
Hmm - I don't remember anywhere in the constitution where it says I can't be put on a list or that I have a right to know what lists my name happens to be on. Putting you on a list doesn't violate your rights - it's what is done with that list that may or may not violate your rights.
Well, you.ve reversed how the constitution is interpretted. You assume that unless it says you have a particular right, then you don't have it. The reverse is true. Constitutions are meant to be limits on governments, not people. So, unless the constitution says that the government is allowed to do something, IT isn't allowed to do it. The consitution is not an exclusive list of your rights - it is a list of what the gov't is or isn;t allowed to do. You won't read anything in the constitution that says you have a right to privacy either. Nor does it say anything about a right to marry or raise a child or choose a career.
I deleted the long legal talk I had typed because it is out of bounds of this forum and I dont want tlo be dispensing legal advice but basically when people's names are placed on lists due to exercising their right of free expression or association, that results in a "chilling effect" on free speech which in many ways is more insidious than outright gov't censorship since it results in self-censorship. There are? (were - things are changing) laws placing all sorts of limits on gov't power to surveil peaceful first amendment activity. You don't have to wait to be arrested or whatever = the chilling effect is enough of a "constitutioanl injury" (See Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) v. US, 870 F.2d 518, 522 (9th Cir. 1989); Initiative & Referendum Inst. v. Walker, 450 F.3d 1082 (10th Cir. 2006))
“The right to be left alone is indeed the beginning of all freedoms.” -Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
FWIW i think the US govt is getting a bit carried away in their attempt to to violate the constitution and people's right and freedoms. it makes me sick that they are applying scare tactics on the american people, non stop all the time.
go to another country and see how the news differs. it is not all fear, war and terrorists. in the same breate i will tell you i have live extensively in thailand which is now under a military junta. my wife is from myanmar (burma) another military junta, and my brother lives in vietnam a communist country. i have spent many months in these countries. so i am very familiar with govt who provide their citizens with little or no freedoms. i think the US is heading toward being just like these places! the US population should be very careful how they let fear run their lives and their govt policies.......
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eddie
FWIW i think the US govt is getting a bit carried away in their attempt to to violate the constitution and people's right and freedoms. it makes me sick that they are applying scare tactics on the american people, non stop all the time.
go to another country and see how the news differs. it is not all fear, war and terrorists. in the same breate i will tell you i have live extensively in thailand which is now under a military junta. my wife is from myanmar (burma) another military junta, and my brother lives in vietnam a communist country. i have spent many months in these countries. so i am very familiar with govt who provide their citizens with little or no freedoms. i think the US is heading toward being just like these places! the US population should be very careful how they let fear run their lives and their govt policies.......
I too lived in many of the countries that you have described. Upon returning to thew US after being "away" for ten years I noticed the same thing back in 1978. Americans apparently want this thing called socialism. Now they are getting it. If your'e bitching already, you haven't seen nothing yet.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyrus
And yes, apparently it does take someone from Iran to remind Americans of their own values and freedoms that they take for granted once in a while.
We need not be reminded of the rights we have and the adjusments we all have to make in order to maintain those rights, good, bad, or indifferent.
We're all on lists, have been since birth, what's the big deal? Having a SS card put's you on a list, having a credit card puts you on a list, being a taxpayer puts you on a list, having a mailing address puts you on a list, having email puts you on a list, and on and on and on.
Until the list makers come knocking on my door with a search warrant for my arrest lets see how many more lists I can get on before I die.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jetcode
Until the list makers come knocking on my door with a search warrant for my arrest lets see how many more lists I can get on before I die.
what makes you think they need any kind of warrant? (or that such a warrant is meaninglessly easy to obtain)?
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jetcode
We need not be reminded of the rights we have and the adjusments we all have to make in order to maintain those rights, good, bad, or indifferent.
We're all on lists, have been since birth, what's the big deal? Having a SS card put's you on a list, having a credit card puts you on a list, being a taxpayer puts you on a list, having a mailing address puts you on a list, having email puts you on a list, and on and on and on.
Being on a list for social security cards isn't exactly the same thing, is it?
The "adjustments" are the taking away of rights and instilling of fear in people who are engaging in perfectly legal activities. Its funny how there's always some big "crisis" that supposedly requires the people to accept "adjustments" to their rights.
To quote Benjamin Franklin: Those who sacrifice liberty for security will have neither.
Or to quote Plato: Tyrants first appear as protectors.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Hi all,
Please remember that the "Articles of Confederation" are still in full force and effect today also.
"The consitution is not an exclusive list of your rights - it is a list of what the gov't is or isn;t allowed to do. You won't read anything in the constitution that says you have a right to privacy either. Nor does it say anything about a right to marry or raise a child or choose a career. "
"Hmm - I don't remember anywhere in the constitution where it says I can't be put on a list or that I have a right to know what lists my name happens to be on. Putting you on a list doesn't violate your rights - it's what is done with that list that may or may not violate your rights."
That one is called the ninth ammendment.:eek:
I - Freedom of Speech, Press, Religion and Petition
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
IV - Right of search and seizure regulated
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
IX - Rule of construction of Constitution
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
X - Rights of the States under Constitution
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Happy Labor Day.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tim atherton
what makes you think they need any kind of warrant? (or that such a warrant is meaninglessly easy to obtain)?
What country are you writing from? Here the authorities are busy keeping cities safe. I should knw I grew up with one, my dad. I've never had a problem with the authorities ever and I led a toxic childhood. If they want to come beat my door down for some form of infraction I will invite them in for tea and find out why they are here. I have nothing to hide and I don't know every rule and regulation like they do.
There is a purpose for everything. Nothing is perfect. What's the big deal?
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jetcode
What country are you writing from? Here the authorities are busy keeping cities safe. I should knw I grew up with one, my dad. I've never had a problem with the authorities ever and I led a toxic childhood. If they want to come beat my door down for some form of infraction I will invite them in for tea and find out why they are here. I have nothing to hide and I don't know every rule and regulation like they do.
There is a purpose for everything. Nothing is perfect. What's the big deal?
oh, I don't know. Things like hey, we have a Canadian Citizen transiting through the airport (traveling legitimately form a to b but having to stop over in the US. We think he might be a bad guy, so lets detain him illegally then send him against his will to a country where the security forces aren't encumbered by any kind of constitution so they can imprison and torture him for us for a couple of years and pass on any information they get.
Ignoring both US law and International Treaties to which the US is a signatory
Ooops - our bad, we got the wrong guy, he was entirely innocent - our information was bad. But hey - don't expect us to apologise.
Just one of many many examples
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyrus
Being on a list for social security cards isn't exactly the same thing, is it?
The "adjustments" are the taking away of rights and instilling of fear in people who are engaging in perfectly legal activities. Its funny how there's always some big "crisis" that supposedly requires the people to accept "adjustments" to their rights.
To quote Benjamin Franklin: Those who sacrifice liberty for security will have neither.
Or to quote Plato: Tyrants first appear as protectors.
I grew up in the 60's/70's when things were really intense. nothing appears to be all that intense nor challenging my way of life in this moment. Yes, there are threats to my liberties but it has yet to affect my lifestyle in any manner that I can detect.
People get stopped for photographing oil refineries and I'm not surprised. Say you produced a product that a society relied on and there were people photographing (in whatever manner) the operation you are responsible for worth trillions. You have no way of knowing how that information will be used. It could be analyzed for political purposes like destruction, it could be a nice print of some pretty lights. The actual property belongs to the oil company. Go to a Ultrasound trade show and try getting into one of your competitors booths, yeah good luck. But why? we are in a public building in a public trade show forum, and we are all Americans with civil liberties.
The struggle to define liberty is as old as mankind and the living creatures who inhabit earth. When it all gets sorted out it will be a wonder if any civilization is left to experience it.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tim atherton
oh, I don't know. Things like hey, we have a Canadian Citizen transiting through the airport (traveling legitimately form a to b but having to stop over in the US. We think he might be a bad guy, so lets detain him illegally then send him against his will to a country where the security forces aren't encumbered by any kind of constitution so they can imprison and torture him for us for a couple of years and pass on any information they get.
Ignoring both US law and International Treaties to which the US is a signatory
Ooops - our bad, we got the wrong guy, he was entirely innocent - our information was bad. But hey - don't expect us to apologise.
Just one of many many examples
no one said living in this world was perfect - you could be wondering if you will be eating a nail infested suicide bomb for lunch with your falafal - I haven't traveled since 2004 or so. The only problem I had was in Nashville. At the airport I was given the third degree because I had a guitar and no short hair. What do you expect from the south? 40 years ago they were lynching black people for being alive.
If you feel betrayed spend some time talking to someone who has experienced Baghdad, Vietnam, or Cambodia, or any of the great wars, famines, massacres, typhoons, earthquakes, etc, etc, etc. Talk to the Katrina survivors.
no one said living in this world was perfect
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
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Originally Posted by
jetcode
no one said living in this world was perfect - you could be wondering if you will be eating a nail infested suicide bomb for lunch with your falafal - I haven't traveled since 2004 or so.
no one said living in this world was perfect
nice response: isolationism + "I'm not worried about any kind of unwarranted erosion of rights and freedoms, illegal and questionable actions by agents of the state or such - as long as it doesn't happen to me or my friends it's just fine."
good strategy
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
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Originally Posted by
tim atherton
nice response: isolationism + "I'm not worried about any kind of unwarranted erosion of rights and freedoms, illegal and questionable actions by agents of the state or such - as long as it doesn't happen to me or my friends it's just fine."
good strategy
ok - straight up - what are you going to do about it?
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
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Originally Posted by
jetcode
ok - straight up - what are you going to do about it?
Start by complainiing about it on this board. Perfectly good reaction. Talking about things helps more than remaining silent.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
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Originally Posted by
jetcode
no one said living in this world was perfect
And no one said you had to just sit there and take it either.
Do we really have to wait until blackshirts are goose-stepping down main street?
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
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Originally Posted by
jetcode
ok - straight up - what are you going to do about it?
well - a good step would be to get rid of the wankers currently in control and then (hopefully...?) get people running things who actually know what they are doing.
I have a very good friend who regularly lectures and runs seminars at Quantico for senior FBI officials on counter-terrorism.
He has been actively involved in the field for 30 years (as was I at that time, when we first met - well, 28 years ago for me)
We spoke a couple of weeks ago and his experience is still that in most cases they basically haven't got a clue what they are doing - especially the higher up the ladder you go. Tried and tested policies and strategies, backed up by quantifiable results, get ignored while ideology takes the lead.
He related how the best of these people know that and yet their hands are tied.
So much of what is being done is actually demonstrably counter effective in making N.America safe - yet that is simply ignored
(as an aside, one senior agent came up to him at coffee at his last seminar and asked him "have you ever met a terrorist face to face and talked to them?" (which if he had actually read his CV would have been obvious) response - "Jesus man, I went to school with terrorists - what do you think!")
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
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Originally Posted by
jetcode
People get stopped for photographing oil refineries and I'm not surprised. Say you produced a product that a society relied on and there were people photographing (in whatever manner) the operation you are responsible for worth trillions. You have no way of knowing how that information will be used. It could be analyzed for political purposes like destruction, it could be a nice print of some pretty lights. The actual property belongs to the oil company.
Lets look at your rather misleading example of the oil refinery because it's specifically about photography.
There is no law on the books which prevents you from taking pictures of most oil refineries from a public place. In fact your right to take such photography is probably actually protected.
And yet people are not only questioned for doing so, they are actually prevented from doing so, have been told to move on, have had their equipment confiscated, even taken into "custody" and so on.
Now, in times of true national emergency the Government has actually suspended those rights and made it illegal to take such photographs.
So why - in the current state of affairs when some quite draconian laws were being introduced as a result o 9/11 and almost anything could have been passed wasn't that done. In fact NO laws restricting photography were introduced at all?
Taking such photographs remains entirely legal and permissible. And yet people are regularly (and illegally) prohibited from doing so on the basis of some imaginary and illogical beliefs and reasoning.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tim atherton
well - a good step would be to get rid of the wankers currently in control and then (hopefully...?) get people running things who actually know what they are doing.
:D :D :D Just where are you going to find these?
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
This might be worth printing and carrying around with you:
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
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Originally Posted by
Greg Lockrey
:D :D :D Just where are you going to find these?
there is that :eek:
my vote goes to Obama Girl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKsoXHYICqU
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
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Originally Posted by
cyrus
Start by complainiing about it on this board. Perfectly good reaction. Talking about things helps more than remaining silent.
I'm not too convinced that this approach will lead to a solution that any of us will see in our lifetimes, but I do feel better educated on the breadth of opinion on this topic.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
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Originally Posted by
tim atherton
We spoke a couple of weeks ago and his experience is still that in most cases they basically haven't got a clue what they are doing - especially the higher up the ladder you go. Tried and tested policies and strategies, backed up by quantifiable results, get ignored while ideology takes the lead.
I once heard that you "can't take the politics out of politics". This problem is true in law enforcement as well as in many other parts of the military-industrial complex. If it's not ideology that alters logic, it is greed... and sometimes plain old stupidity.
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
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Originally Posted by
tim atherton
I read somewhere that's she's not for Obama after all. :p
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Re: Are you in the Homeland Security database?
I did something similar. I was in Hershey, PA at my Mom's last year. I made the mistake of thinking the public works buildings were fair game for viewing by the public. They actually thought that a 20 year old kid with a hundred year old 5x7 and ugly brass lens was doing devious, homeland-endangering work.