New Computer Recommendation

I will try to avoid an impossible question, like "what camera should I buy" by being as specific as I can; I was using "search", and realized I was reading something Ted Harris wrote 3 years ago, so the choices have changed!
At PhotoPro I spoke with Ted about software for a "wet darkroom type" wanting to get into digital; since I do 99.5%B&W, and am "zone system comfortable" he recommended the Lightzone software, but I realized it won't run on my functionally obsolete PC (6-yrs old, win98, 348MB). So I figure it is time to buy a new computer, which could, if it helps, be primarily dedicated to photo work, since the old one is still fine for internet surfing and MicroSoft office programs.
My initial use will be to scan negatives (lets say 60% 4x5 LF, 40% 6x6 MF), and make the equivalents of contact sheets and work prints. (My current workflow is to contact everything, make very fast straight work prints on RC of the images that look potentially interesting, and then edit those down to the few that are worth "real" fiber based 11x14 prints. So my starting point is to "digitalize" the process up to the wet final prints.) This is a hobby/passion, but low volume.
While cost is a factor, it is not the deciding one. My experience is that it is cheaper to buy quality right off, rather than increment the way up. I don't use cheap cameras or lenses, so the same would presumably apply to computers. Also, while I think of myself as a competent traditional printer, I wouldn't rule out making digital prints too, just not initially. My leaning is towards one of the Macs. Also, to keep this narrower, lets say new computers only, not used.
Is this enough info to get a recommendation (specifics, rather than generalizations, would make it easier for me)? Thanks!

Go visit the nearest Apple Store and get the largest iMac you can afford, allowing enough room in the budget for the largest hard drive (250 GB) and the maximum amount of RAM (3 GB). Also get a second, external hard drive that is at least 500 GB and uses Firewire -- this is for backing up your work in addition to burning DVDs for off-site storage. And if you have enough money, a Epson 3800 printer and 7500 scanner. And be sure to allow enough to buy a copy of LightZone and Adobe Photoshop CS3 when it is introduced, and probably a $100 Wacom tablet.

Then just use it for the next four years and repeat the cycle in 2010, getting the best value state of the art hardware.

If you have a lot of money, substitute a Mac Pro Tower with more RAM and a large 30" display.

Internet retailers like smalldog.com will save you a few $ and they have a good reputation. I think the iMacs are the best value out there right now, although the entire Mac line-up is competitive.

The MacWorld tradeshow is in early January so watch for new products and related price drops.

In general, your productivity will be more impacted by the comfort of using a good computer and software -- followed by the amount of RAM -- and lastly by processor speed. It is probably wiser to purchase the last generation computer and having enough money left to buy lots of RAM than it is to buy the faster newer generation but be operating with less RAM. Especially for imaging applications!

Good luck.

I do basically what you do, but with Photoshop, which is a pig. Balancing all of the factors, I just bought a Dell Precision workstation, 4 gigs of ram, expandable to 8, 160 gig SATA drive, high speed bus and graphics processor, Core Duo 1.8 mHz (these run slower because they do more on each cycle). Got it through the Dell outlet, where they sell open box machines for about 30% off, with full warranty. With the included onsite 3 year warranty, it was $1100. I will add another internal drive (500gig) which will raise the total cost to about $1500, with tax. The Workstations are metal boxes with very high quality construction, more like a Mac tower than a PC. It is very fast and very quiet.

I would be interested in the comparable Mac pricing, I think it is about 2x as much.

You can find a refurb/demo dual processor tower for under $1500 at smalldog. Buying RAM and drives directly from Apple isn't the cheapest though... and you got a 3 year warranty which is pretty compelling (although I won't enter into an arguement about which company has better QC or service).

For RAM go to www.datamem.com, their prices are usually as low as you will find and they are the "Midwest" of memory; I have been buying from them for nearly 20 years. Ask for Bud.

Frank is right on with refurbs and Small Dog is a great dealer ... also look for the refurbs at the Apple Store online.

BTW, there will be an article on using LightZone in the January issue of View Camera.

Hi Peter,

Not being funny but check out Microsoft Vista: :eek:

Windows Vista default page

You may want to wait till Easter time (tax refunds) :D

Merry Christmas

What Frank wrote will work very well.

> Not being funny but check out Microsoft Vista:

A main reason I bought now was to get a system with XP - I have learned to just say no to MS OS upgrades until they have been out for a while. You have to decide whether you want to go Mac or PC first. There is a lot to be said for Macs. I use several apps that do not run on Macs, and I know how to keep Windows running, so Macs are not as attractive to me.

If buy a mac then buy one of the highend dual core Intels now and put the maximum Ram in it and then work with it for the next 6-10 years as I always did with mine!
Happy Christmas, Armin

What Frank wrote.

You might find this article interesting.

Also there is a short bit here on my site, towards the bottom of the page.

And for Windows users, there's this helpful link.

One thing to think about if you us PS is get dual monitor capability. Then you can spread those pallets to another screen.

I sure like MacIntosh. I grew up on Windows machines, getting an IBM PC (the original) at work in about 1980 when they first came out, and working at Intel for 9 years.

Then, I got a PowerBook. Jeepers, the thing just works and works very well. I still use a Windows machine for some things, so I have a good basis of comparison. For example, I rarely even have to install hardware on the Mac. My Eye-One works without installation on the Mac; not true on the Windows machine. Installing drivers for my HP Laserjet 1010 ALWAYS messes up on the Windows XP professional plug and swear machine. (Can you imagine; what's more generic than an HP Laserjet?) This is never the case on my Mac. The operating system is SOOO much better on the Mac. it's friendly; it has an intuitive interface that is indeed simpler. It automatically verifies copies to CD. (Not true onmy Windows machine.) It also offers the option of writing slow to CD, for a more relaiable write. Windows XP, or any Microsoft software, is just a conglomeration of piled higher and deeper features that have no intuitive organization, nor to which there is any intuitive access. (My opinion.) The only software with which I have frustrations on my Mac are Word, Excel, and PowerPoint! (All Microsoft products.) I especially like running my Powerbook in clamshell mode. If a mouse, keyboard, external monitor, and ac adaptor is attached, one can close up the labtop and operate as if the laptop is a desktop model. This preserves the laptop monitor. I don't know if Windows based machines have this capability.

The hardware is better, too. My son got a Dell laptop. After just over a year, after the warrenty had expired, his pc plug for the ac adaptor broke. It was wired directly to the motherboard. This is inexcusable, and he had to replace the MOTHERBOARD to get it fixed. Need I say, not true on the Mac Powerbook. Warrenty on the Mac is excellent. The 2-year extended (3 years total) Apple Care warrenty is first rate, and includes unlimited OSX support. Not true even for Dell, whose after purchase support is known as one of the best in the Windows world. The track pads on Mac laptops are excellent. For example, I really like the two finger scrolling capability that Mac laptops have.

One negative that I sometimes encounter using a Mac is the availability of software solutions. For example, my ColorBurst Pro RIP isn't available for the Mac. (So, I'm trying to rig up a network between the Mac and PC. Easy on the Mac, but a ROYAL PAIN on the PC.) ColorBurst does have a good RIP for Macs, but not the pro version that I like to use. I can get Quickbooks for Mac, but it doesn't communicate particularly well with accountant versions, who run everything on Windows machines. There's a lack of statistical software for the Mac. (As a statistician, this applies to me where it wouldn't to others.) Also, there are no good programming solutions on the Mac. To me, this is the most surprising. For example, one can purchase Visual Basic for a Windows machine that provides a darn decent Windows based programming environment. (I've told that programming products aren't produced by Microsoft. Not sure about this, though.) But, I wonder how much of these software availability issues will still be a problem with the new Intel based Macs, which I don't have. (Especially if they run Leopard.)

Plus, I would note that Macs have always had a better reputation for their imaging product excellence. Oh, and it's sooo much simpler and intuitive running two monitors off of Tiger than off of XP. The XP setup for this is TERRIBLE. Running two monitors with Photoshop is very convenient. Tiger on the Mac automatically loads the gammas specified in the default monitor profile up to the video card. Not true on my PC. Windows XP doesn't do this, and the Windows system needs installed software that runs at boot to perform this task. (According to Gretag Macbeth.) If I reformat the Windows PC, which I do regularly to get rid of spy ware etc., I have to at least reinstall the color management software, and usually just redo the monitor profile when I reformat. The Mac operating system fosters a better relationship between the CPU and the video card, too. Some tasks are off-loaded to the video card that help make the Mac system more efficient.

If there's any question about whether or not to migrate to Mac, you might want to wait to see what Leopard provides. Another thing that I would want to know about prior to purchasing a Windows machine is the impact of the new color management systems in Vista. Self-serving Microsoft is making this a proprietary system, although I've heard that Vista will also support the traditional ICC system. But for me, I would definitely want to take a wait and see stance before purchasing a Windows based machine.

YMMV - I have run a series of Windows machines, including some Dells, for what is now 25+ years with few hardware problems. In contrast, my daughter and some of her friends had a lot of trouble with Mac laptops. I would not worry about the hardware issues, as long as you get an extended warranty.

As for Vista - buy now and get XP. Upgrade when Vista has been out for a while.

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Originally Posted by Ed Richards

> Not being funny but check out Microsoft Vista:

A main reason I bought now was to get a system with XP - I have learned to just say no to MS OS upgrades until they have been out for a while. You have to decide whether you want to go Mac or PC first. There is a lot to be said for Macs. I use several apps that do not run on Macs, and I know how to keep Windows running, so Macs are not as attractive to me.

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The new Intel Mac's are dual bootable. You can run either OS without emulation on the same machine.

So when you need to get some work done, boot into the Mac OS and when it's time to play solitare; just boot into windows.

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Oh, and it's sooo much simpler and intuitive running two monitors off of Tiger than off of XP. The XP setup for this is TERRIBLE.

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Explain this please. I run dual monitors on all my PCs. It was an extremely simple P&P setup that took all of 2 minutes and has been problem free for years. BTW I also have a Mac and use Macs exclusively where I teach photography.

Personally, having run both Macs and PCs for years, I think all this stuff about one being so much superior than the other is ancient history and people trying to justify their own investments in a particular system. Computer tribalism.

The best PCs and the best Macs are now pretty comparable in price, performance and durability (as a matter of fact my 3 Dell PCs have been 100% problem free for years since purchase-not so with the Mac). The only real difference as I see it is with monitors, where Mac is clearly superior.

yup, since the advent of NT4 windows has been a very stable paltform. Most problems relate to cheap third party and improperly tested software.

cheap software for a MAC?

I use a PC at home and I used a Mac in school. I agree with Kirk, I never could understand what all the arguments were about, they seemed pretty much the same to me just from the standpoint of using Photoshop and other photo programs with them. But then I'm not a computer expert and certainly wouldn't know about all the things Neil and others talk about. I will say that in twelve years of using PCs I've never experienced the litany of problems mentioned in the first paragraph of the first article cited by Ken Lee. I stopped reading after the second paragraph, in which the author told me that the only reason businesses use PCs is because the IT people need computers that break down all the time in order to keep their jobs.

I've been using PCs since DOS version 3, used all versions of Windows to date. I've also been using Macs since Mac OS 7 and I am still using both. I can't even remember the number of PCs I've built during all this time, but I've only had a few Macs during the same period, the things just would not die.

It essentially all comes down to personal preferences. Robc is right - most problems stem from cheap third party hardware and software. You either get cheap or you get good. Either way, you get what you pay for.

The thing with Macs is that Apple owns the entire chain and they put premium stock in quality and quality control, two words that don't sit well with words cheap or budget. That is probably the #1 reason why Macs are shunned by the corporate crowd.

The other reason why I personally dislike PCs, meaning mostly Windows, is the endless orgy of security updates and patches.

But in the end, each system is a compromise of sorts, and it is up to each of us to decide which shortcuts and which sacrifices to take in return for which benefits.

After rereading my comments above, they come across with a lot of zeal. I would rephrase some of what I wrote and exclude the use of "sooo" and all caps. Also, my son's experience with his laptop aren't representative of Windows based hardware in general. I would say that dual monitor setup works in both XP and OSX based systems.

But, my comments also represent the frustrations I've experienced with Windows based systems and the fact that I prefer a Mac for many of the things that I do. Please accept these comments as representing the experiences of a single individual and weigh them accordingly. Others have clearly had positive experiences with Windows based systems.

I can be ardent. In this case, I think my ardency may have gotten in the way of what could have been a better response.

Ah, the Mac vs. Win debate. Like many, I've been a Windows users since day one at home and servers at work, and only since XP have ceased to actively hate it. I've just settled into a passive dislike for it. I'm tired of it.

Even though I may have to take a software licensing hit by converting, I am going to get a Mac to replace my photo workstation in the next couple of years (I just built a new Windoze box last spring so no rush). Ever since hearing that OS X was UNIX-based I've looked more kindly on the prospect. The only thing that gives me pause is the proprietary hardware--I do like rolling my own and usually regret it when I have to put up with capabilities that other people decide I need.

Anyone have any experience with Apple customer service, esp. with hardware issues (or are retailers responsible for those issues)? I've had a very poor experience with the iTunes people (try to find a customer service phone for those people!), so I'm wondering if non-responsiveness is a characteristic of Apple or just iTunes.

If you can find drivers for your scanner, I'd go with a windows box running 64-bit Windows XP. 4x5 scans get very large - easily half a gig in size and you need all the memory you can handle. 32-bit OS's just don't provide enough memory capability. I would trade processor speed for RAM and disk space - say 8 GB RAM and at least 500GB hard disk. For PC's you can get an external SATA drive with a SATA connector that will be much faster that firewire or USB.
Again, this is all dependent on your scanner having 64-bit drivers available.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by robc

yup, since the advent of NT4 windows has been a very stable paltform. Most problems relate to cheap third party and improperly tested software.

cheap software for a MAC?

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I'm going to disagree with you on that point. The WIN32 platform has definitely improved over previous incarnations. And yes, crappy software is crappy software, whether it's the OS you're talking about or the application. However, the biggest problem with the Windows platform in general is the porous security. Then, in order to patch the security holes, Microsoft release patches that fix one problem and create a few more. Where I work, we have to have a staff of people whose sole focus to test the patches that Microsoft releases to make sure they don't do more harm than good. Trust me when I tell you that not all of Billy Boy's "fixes" make it onto our network.

OSX isn't the catch-all, and neither is Linux. Where there is an OS that is designed to connect to the internet, there'll be some jackass that finds ways into your system and a few other cockroaches that delight in writing viruses. But all said and done...any Unix based application will run rings around any Windows based system in security, stability and speed. OSX is Unix-based and Linux is a close enough relative to Unix to qualify (although its evolution over the past couple of years has lead it off the primrose path).

Get a MAC. If you MUST have a PC, run Linux.

Tom,

I've never seen any retailer in the computer business who could give service like what we'd expect from Jim at Midwest or some of the other great photo retailers who keep us in gear. Its way too cut-throat -- they have no margins to work with and no back-up from the manufacturer. So no real "service" is what to expect, IMO.

A bad piece of hardware is going to be a pain to get fixed no matter who made it. I had an iBook go back three times before they had replaced every major component. (it's worked flawlessly for years since then) It must have cost Apple more to fix my computer than to have given me a new one right away, but they did fix it and were as responsive as we're gonna get these days from that industry. They work in a tiered system where you don't get escalated to the next level until your current level of support has failed. I'm sure it works well internally for Apple but it can be frustrating for the customer.

Since you have an Apple Store where you live it might be easier for you to get good support than otherwise. At least you can go face to face with them. If you are concerned about service you can buy AppleCare to extend your warranty. I take the small gamble that it the computer makes it through the one year warranty that it'll run for a good long time after that and so far its paid off.

My experience is that Macs give a really long service life. I've run several for 6-7 years with a just a few upgrades to keep them competitive or things like power supplies that are easily replaceable. I had a 9500 that went through two processor upgrades, several iterations of fast and wide SCSI boards and drives, multiple video cards, two motherboards, three power supplies, (MBs and power supplies were clustered at the end of its life since I was replacing dead parts with used parts, the other things I listed were upgrades not repairs).

You might consider a used Mac. Sometimes you'll see a deal where someone has to have the latest and greatest and you can buy their otherwise excellent machine for much less than new.

Tom,

The only time I ever needed a service for a Mac was when I installed an IDE hard disk taken from a misbehaving PC as a secondary drive into a G4. It turned out that the drive itself had latent problems which soon developed into a full blown electrical problem, causing the drive to die, taking the motherboard along with it.

Tech guys in my local Mac store went not just a proverbial extra mile trying to help me with that, they ran a whole maraton. And they never charged me for any of it, so I ended up getting a new Mac from them.

As for proprietary hardware, there is no proprietary Mac hardware any more, other than the motherboard, of course. It is a thing of the past ever since Steve Jobs came back to Apple back in 1999, or more precisely, since the introduction of G4.

Current Macs use SATA hard drives, DDR memory, USB and USB 2.0, Firewire 400 and 800, DVI for monitor conectivity, IDE DVD and CD units. You can even use Microsoft mouse on them. ;) As for the usual problem with other people deciding what capabilities you need, Apple solves it in a very efficient manner - they simply build it all in every Mac. USB, Firewire, DVI, DVD-burner, full sound, and (except with towers) even cameras. You can use any DVI-enabled LCD and hook it up to a Mac, as either primary or secondary display.

Speaking of dual monitors, you don't have to do any setup, you simply connect the second monitor and adjust its resolution and background and set its profile. Yes, you can color-calibrate each display separately on a Mac.

The upcoming version of OSX, Leopard, will be fully 64-bit, and all Intel-based Macs will be able to natively run both OSX and Windows, possibly even hot-switch between sessions.

I've used both Mac and PC platforms for years, and my impression has been that PCs are available with range of components from cheap to very good, but that Mac uses (for the most part) only good components. So Macs are quite expensive, but a PC with good components approaches the price of a Mac. If you're able to build a machine, PCs offer the route to a custom machine.

So, back to some of the original questions. Do dual cores really make much difference for someone PS'ing a single 200 mb image? It seems like a single core 3 GHz processor would only take a second longer here and there for such manipulations as rotating or filtering.

Does Vista really offer an advantage to the PS user? I've heard it opens video capabilities.

I'm hoping to quite down my machine. Anyone use Glyph drives?

Jay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay W

So, back to some of the original questions. Do dual cores really make much difference for someone PS'ing a single 200 mb image? It seems like a single core 3 GHz processor would only take a second longer here and there for such manipulations as rotating or filtering.

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Because of the nature of Image processing algorithms, dual cores offer the potential to make a big difference. However, the software needs to be written to take advantage of multiple cores for you to see the benefit. I believe PS CS2 has been written to take advantage of multiple cores, but you should contact Adobe tech support to verify.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay W

Does Vista really offer an advantage to the PS user? I've heard it opens video capabilities.
Jay

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I have used the preview releases of Vista and I have to say I'm not really impressed. Vista uses a lot more resources than XP so you would most likely need to upgrade your machine. As to video capabilities, I'm not sure that it really offers much benefit over what you would get by buying a high-end vidoe card and installing the manfacturers latest drivers. I intend to wait for at least one service pack before upgrading to Vista.

frank is on the money...

I think the difference between Apple and Microsoft may be grasped with analogy to cars, to clothing, and to many other products.

This may not be a perfect analogy, but Microsoft reminds me of the current US car industry and its culture, as contrasted with the European or Japanese auto makers, who remind me of Apple.

With their age-old traditions of pride of craftsmanship, the European and Japanese vehicles often outperform their American counterparts in many respects.

The Americans seem to have a more short term view, placing a greater emphasis on profits over quality. They try to compensate for this, with what I can only describe diplomatically as "marketing fluff", rebates, and other branding gimmicks.

If you are aware enough to appreciate the difference between Large Format and "all the rest", you will readily sense the difference between Apple and Microsoft.

The difference in fragrance pervades everything they make, and everything they say.

Just went to the Apple store to check prices against my Dell Workstation. Am I missing something - you do not seem to be able to buy a tower with only one processor. The Imac cannot hold enough memory or drives to be useful, so it looks like you cannot get out of the store spending less than about 3000K for a tower and a 3 year service contract. My 390 Precision Workstation, which is built to very high standards, was 1,200K for a Core-Duo, 4 gigs of ram, dual layer DVD burner, 160 gig SATA drive, 3 year 4 hour on site service, and expansion room for several more drives in the tower.

With the Core-Duo, most of the reason for a dual processor machine goes away. While having two processors is nice, paying $1500 for the second one, with no option to pass on it, seems high. Again, the Macs are nice, but that is a lot of film and paper.:-)

Ok, some specifics. I'm looking for a machine, and I think:

-Dual core probably Intel since it has better speed ratings with PS
-2 Gb RAM (dual channel), with 2 more slots
-I'm considering a 2 drive RAID set up
-Two monitors (or at least one large one)
-4 or more high speed USB connections (2 printers, scanner, flash cards, etc)
-I plan to use existing drives, but a fast scratch drive is also something to look at
-I also plan to use existing CD, DVD, (and floppy since I have it) drives...
-Quiet

That's about it for now. Open to suggestions.

Jay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ed Richards

With the Core-Duo, most of the reason for a dual processor machine goes away. While having two processors is nice, paying $1500 for the second one, with no option to pass on it, seems high. Again, the Macs are nice, but that is a lot of film and paper.:-)

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I have to admit that that's the same reasoning that drives me to buy a Shen-Hao rather than an Ebony or a Canham.

;)

Ho, Ho, Ho and Merry Christmas.

Not to light anyones hair on fire, just an observation of natural reality.

The main reason to use Mac was Photoshop, but Adobe didn't release the new version for Mac when they released the new version for Windows. The reason given by Adobe was that Apple / MacIntosh didn't have a software development suite robust enough for the job.

That is the kiss-of-death for an OS. If third party venders can not make and sell software for an OS, they won't, PERIOD. Can anyone say OS/2 ? The software development packages from Microsoft are EXACTLY how Microsoft WON. :eek:

Just a thought.

Happy New Year people,

Looking around the net I found this:

Sun Ultra 40 workstations

Check the price and tech specs, worth a look, $2300 and up, 32gigs of RAM, twin Opterons, Solaris10 (FREE 64 bit Unix), Linux or Win XP Pro x64 / Vista :D

You can also check out:

ATI.com

It seems AMD and ATI have merged. Opterons and CrossFire video. Damn.

Have fun with it all.

best value for money seems to be an imac 20, external hd, second screen Lacie and the max of ram it can handles !
i still using a G4 1,25 with two gigs of ram no complains, no service...

I haven't read all of the earlier posts, so, at the risk of leading this thread astray, I just bought a new Power Mac with dual intel processors (2.66 GHz). I have 3 Gigs of RAM. The machine is a delight. It's fast with Photoshop CS 2, but not screaming. The word is it will be screaming when the new version is released . . . . I bought just the basic Mac box, and upgraded the ram and added extra hard drives from Other World Computing (it's a lot less expensive that way). Installing the ram and hard drives is easy; takes about 5 minutes. One great feature is that it has 4 separate hard drive buses; one for each internal bay. If you can afford it, I can't see going any other route. BTW set up was unbelievably easy. When I first started the computer it asked if I had another Mac? I answered yes. It asked if I wanted to transfer data, software, and settings. I said yes. I was prompted to hook up the old Mac, which I did, the program then calculated it would take about an hour to set up the new computer and told me to come back then. I came back in an hour, and the desk top looked EXACTLY like my old machine, and all my preferences and settings worked perfectly. Fantastic.

Obviously you get the best machine for your money. I can suggest you get a towered machine though as they tend to be more powerful then notebooks, desktop replacements and smaller macs for less money.

I'm a mac dude, so it's no surprise I'll point in that direction.

If you really think you'll only use the machine for work prints, than Frank gave you the easiest solution ... get a nice imac and be done with it.

If you think you'll ever do any serious digital printing, I wouldn't go with that, because the imac monitors aren't up to the task of serious calibration and tone/color matching.

With the same budget I'd buy an older, used mac, and use the rest of the cash for the best monitor you can afford, and more ram, in that order.

Now that I have a Tower Mac 2.66 ghz dual with 3 GB of RAM, AND Photoshop CS 3 and Lightroom, I can tell you that this machine is SCREAMING FAST with the new native versions of these programs.