Introducing Chamonix Whole Plate Camera

After a few months labor, I am glad to introduce Chamonix Whole Plate camera here to our members.
This project started a few months ago as a custom made one camera order. Then it grows. We have been working on this project with strong interest and useful suggestions from many people in this forum. I am very grateful for all this. But special thanks have to go to Sal. Without his relentless pursuit of perfection and fastidious attention to details, this WP camera may come out a little bit earlier, but definitely not be as good as it should be.

The design principle is very simple: to make a very light weight and compact, yet very rigid wooden whole plate camera for those few backpackers who just love that format and stubbornly refuse to use a whole plate reducing back with their 8x10 cameras. This is a very small group of photographers. Canadian maple and dark walnut will used together with aluminum and carbon fiber to make this elegant and functional but not lavish camera.

Here are the meat:

1. Our WP camera will be based on Chamonix 5x8 and will be very rigid reversible back design.

2. Back designed to accept Lotus/Chamonix and Fotoman holders (T=0.260 inch).

3. Exposed film area in Chamonix holders will match exactly size/location of Chamonix camera viewing screen.

4. Fresnel viewing screen. No cut corners or grid/markings on screen or cover glass for Sal's WP camera. Chamonix reserves the right to make screens with grid/markings and cut corners for other WP cameras.

5. Mat black paint will be used on inside edges of frame to prevent reflections along screen edges.

6. Viewing screen protector interchangeable with focus tube "flange". When attached, flange will be well sealed to frame so sunlight doesn't leak in and wash out screen image.

7. Bellows extension range will be 110mm to 680mm.

8. For Sal's WP camera, front from 45N-1 that accepts Technika size lenboards and includes sliding "zero-tilt" guides. Front uprights tall enough to permit moderate rise, even though smaller lensboard would permit making them shorter. For other Chamonix WP cameras, standard front which accept Sinar size lenboards will be used to accommendate larger lenses. But if you make special request, we can make your camera front to take Technika size lensboard like Sal's.

9. Two (2) 3/8" tripod receptacles.

10. Folded thickness will be 110mm or less.

11. Maximum weight in walnut, including ground class protector and fresnel screen, will be 2.85kg for the walnut wood. Lightening holes in base and greater percentage of carbon fiber will be used to achieve this.

12. The delivery time will be six months from this announcement.

Hallo Hugo,

Can you give us information regarding its price and, if it is possible, some pictures? Thanks in advance!

Andy

Andy,

Check your PM for price information. No pictures yet as design and specifications of the camera have just been finalized. The actual cameras will be out in 6 months.

Thanks.

Hugo Zhang is like Seve Simmons. He (mis)uses this forum to promote his commercial
interest.

I don't see a problem with this announcement. I'm just wonder why the price can't be posted also. Hugo... would you please PM me the price too?

Thanks,
Brian

Moderator,

Please feel free to delete this thread if there is a problem.

Thanks.
Hugo

I don't see a problem with this announcement, but I do see a problem with the troll. Not the first time either.

The New Products section is intended for just this type of one-time announcement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gudmundur Ingolfsson

Hugo Zhang is like Seve Simmons. He (mis)uses this forum to promote his commercial
interest.

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And it just happens that thier commercial interest is directly related to the topic of this forum. If Steve was selling tires and Hugo selling Pogo sticks I would agree. As it stands I like to know about new technologies available in this particular field.

I agree with the others. Give the guy a break. He made posts early on that were outside the guidelines. He got creamed. Now, he makes an introductory announcement without including a price, answering those questions off line. Then someone tries to cream him. It seems to be within the guidelines to me.

I might as well get in on the stupid question of the thread but... what is whole and half plate? My guess is that whole is 10x8 and half is 5x8 but Im guessing here.

Thanks and the best of luck with the project.

The whole plate is 8 1/2 x 6 1/2 in. Use the search option. There are a lot of post regarding it.

Turner,
Just for the info half plate is 4 3/4 x 6 1/2.
Pete.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gudmundur Ingolfsson

Hugo Zhang is like Seve Simmons. He (mis)uses this forum to promote his commercial
interest.

---

This kind of thing used to bug me too. But now that the forum permits the sale of anything related to photography if listed in the "For Sale" section, and the promotion of any new photography product if listed in the "New Product" section, I don't see any problem with Hugo's announcement.

I do think it's too bad that whoever makes these sorts of decisions has chosen to ignore the guideline that restrict FS announcements to LF equipment. Not that I have a major problem with FS listings for digital, 35mm, etc. equipment, I just think that if FS listings for non-LF gear are going to be allowed then somebody should change the guideline rather than leaving it as it is but ignoring it. But what the hell, if Al Gore can burn up untold megawatts of electricity and other fuels to keep his mansions comfortable and still get a Nobel Prize for helping the environment, who am I to complain about following guidelines?

One day when i have my new Chamonix i will book a tickett, fly to Island and take some nice photos. I hope i get a chance to meet Gudmundur Ingolfsson. No i am not going to show him the camera. Something else.

Wow - another WP camera coming out!


Good luck with the WP venture Hugo and I really hope it works out. I won't go on the waiting list, although I might change my mind later and come knocking on your Inbox...

Being British, I think we also have a slightly different take on whole plate philosophy too. Partly I've decided to stick to traditional whole plate bookform plate holders.

Why? Because they work beautifully; and because Fotoman have been very disappointing in promising time and again that the whole plate holders will be coming out next month. 6 months is a reasonable time scale to hang onto, partly to reassess the Fotoman situation. I've given up waiting for them and just got on with working out my own (traditional) bookform workflow and won't be needing to buy costly WP double dark slides. I have to say this is immensely satisfying (and cheaper) route for whole plate photography. Although it is more likely to be limited to British users, since bookform plates are available in abundance here. These bookform holders are also closer to my own vintage in terms of age.

Jan - are you going down the WP route too? Iceland is also inflected with Norse myths too - it has a very rich culture. As you know, it is the mythical home of goblins although there is evidence that trolls still exist there.

All the very best Hugo and whole platers. Go whole-platers go!

Rob, Not going down the WP route, i was thinking about it for a while but desided to continue with 8x10 basically due to availability of film and size of lensboard. The 8x10 use Sinar lensboards and i like older lenses in large #5 shutters so that was a better choice for me. Price difference is very small to.
Iceland was in our history books in Denmark but i don't remember reading about trolls that is why i am intereseted in going there to see them up close.
Best to Hugo and all Whole Platers, will be interesting to see more prints in that format.

Hugo-

Of even greater interest to me is the issue of whole plate film holders. Since you indicate that the camera will be built to accommodate Chamonix whole-plate film holders, do you have a price and an availability date?

Hugo, have you built a prototype that you can post pictures of?

Hugo,
Can you PM me the information on this camera?

Diane

Michael,

We have not built a prototype yet. But it is based on Chamonix 5x8 camera, a little thinner and 1/2" wider.

Thanks.
Hugo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jan L Pedersen

...The 8x10 use Sinar lensboards and i like older lenses in large #5 shutters so that was a better choice for me...

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Scrolling up to item 8 in Hugo's post at the top of this thread reveals that the Chamonix 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 camera will be available with each buyer's choice of front standard size to accept either Sinar or Technika lensboards.

Hugo, will you please PM info on this camera? Many thanks.

Sal, Did see that about the front standard choice but have settled on the 8x10 with an additional 5x7 back. Film, holders and not going with one more format than i already use was also a determining factor.

Jan,

You are always welcome to the WP club with a WP reducing back.:)

Hugo,
Thank you. Know we did talk about that but let's see how popular the format get and how much film will be available. Don't want to start cutting perfectly fine 8x10 film down just to get a smaller print. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jan L Pedersen

...let's see how popular the format get[s] and how much film will be available. Don't want to start cutting...8x10 film down...

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Why cut down 8x10? Ready-to-use 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 film is available from Ilford and retrophotographic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura

Why cut down 8x10? Ready-to-use 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 film is available from Ilford and retrophotographic.

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Because some people want to use Kodak or Fuji film.

Don Bryant

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Ellis

This kind of thing used to bug me too. But now that the forum permits the sale of anything related to photography if listed in the "For Sale" section, and the promotion of any new photography product if listed in the "New Product" section, I don't see any problem with Hugo's announcement.

I do think it's too bad that whoever makes these sorts of decisions has chosen to ignore the guideline that restrict FS announcements to LF equipment. Not that I have a major problem with FS listings for digital, 35mm, etc. equipment, I just think that if FS listings for non-LF gear are going to be allowed then somebody should change the guideline rather than leaving it as it is but ignoring it. But what the hell, if Al Gore can burn up untold megawatts of electricity and other fuels to keep his mansions comfortable and still get a Nobel Prize for helping the environment, who am I to complain about following guidelines?

---

You guys don't have abything better to do but gripe about a new LF product announcement in the products forum?

Jeez Louise!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura

Why cut down 8x10? Ready-to-use 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 film is available from Ilford and retrophotographic.

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And believe it or not some may want to shoot in color. :D :eek:

Rich

Quote:

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Originally Posted by D. Bryant

Because some people want to use Kodak or Fuji film.

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Can't help on Fuji, but stay in touch with Michael Kadillak. Kodak may be including 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 in its TMY custom cuttings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by naturephoto1

And believe it or not some may want to shoot in color.

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Now that's a tough one. You are the first person I've read discussing 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 and color in the same thread. Personally, I look at this as a format for the long haul, and expect that color sheet film in general will become extinct before black and white "whole plate" film does. :)

Hugo,

Do you know if Chamonix has a store front anywhere in China? I am traveling to Beijing very soon, and would like to take a look at their 12x20 and hopefully buy one...

James.

Here is something I have been pondering. It doesn't affect me very much because I only shoot 4x5 these days and have no interest in ULF.

Does the resurgence of antique and non standard film sizes, 7x17, 12x20, 5x8, 6.5x8.5 etc. dilute the demand for LF film? If I were a large manufacturer looking to maintain my sales in an ever shrinking film market, it would be easier and probably more profitable to focus my facilities on fewer standard film sizes that were higher volume. For instance back in the day when I was doing all my own C printing for my business, I much preferred doing standard print sizes that I could print in volume rather than custom sizes (which I charged much more for, but was never really as profitable as the volume standard sizes).

Interesting question Kirk.

Perhaps these sales of non-standard sizes are quite profitable for them. There is little promotion cost for the manufacturer. The customers are there and they pre-pay. The company makes the film and cuts it to sizes that it knows it will sell. There is no production for general distribution, so they don't have to wonder if a store is going to call and order some odd sized film. For that matter, there is little inventory cost, because the items are shipped to the retailers as they are completed, and the retailers then distribute the items to their customers (and some order and inventory extra so that they will have some supply for customers in the interim period between special orders). This model might be the wave of the future for companies that want to stay in the film business.

On the other hand, Ilford committed to do this even though the second year's orders were lower than they preferred. That may have been because photographers ordered so much in the first year because they did not believe the opportunity would recur.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirk Gittings

Does the resurgence of antique and non standard film sizes, 7x17, 12x20, 5x8, 6.5x8.5 etc. dilute the demand for LF film? If I were a large manufacturer looking to maintain my sales in an ever shrinking film market, it would be easier and probably more profitable to focus my facilities on fewer standard film sizes that were higher volume.

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For both Kodak and Harman, the overhead burden of all those extra SKUs is mitigated by the fact that they're cutting only to prepaid special order; in Harman's case, only once a year, and with Kodak, by special arrangement. So they don't have to worry about tying up capital and warehouse space in perishable stock, and it also seems clear from the delivery schedules that they work these into production calendars as the ebb and flow of regular production allows, rather than dropping everything to get them done.

It's clear from discussions on APUG and at the factory in Mobberley that the problem of cannibalizing sales of existing products has been very much on the minds of Harman management as they've evaluated proposed new products for the Ilford line. But in this area in particular, I suspect the overall sales of the odd sizes are still a small fraction of the already small sales of sheet film, and that some of it actually does represent incremental new sales. It's certainly true that, over the past couple of years, I bought considerably more HP5 Plus in the odd sizes through my special orders than I would ever have purchased of the standard sizes through the usual retail channels.

I doubt that the special cuts are highly profitable - I'm not even sure Harman hasn't lost money so far on setting them up. (I don't know nearly so much about how it works at Kodak - Michael's the expert on that.) But in a shrinking market where a higher proportion of the remaining customers are likely to be strongly-committed amateurs and professionals with special requirements rather than casual users, these special cuts are a relatively inexpensive way of demonstrating responsiveness to customer needs and strengthening the customer relationship. And while they can't afford, say, to develop an entirely new emulsion just for this purpose, in this case, once the cutting masks and SKUs are set up, all that's required is slightly different finishing and packing of an existing product. Nothing needs to change on the coating line itself.

James,

I believe Chamonix has dealers in Beijing, but I have not visited their stores. Ask Sandy who visited a Chamonix store in Beijing a few weeks ago. I am not sure they have a 12x20 waiting for you.

Hugo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirk Gittings

Here is something I have been pondering. It doesn't affect me very much because I only shoot 4x5 these days and have no interest in ULF.

Does the resurgence of antique and non standard film sizes, 7x17, 12x20, 5x8, 6.5x8.5 etc. dilute the demand for LF film? If I were a large manufacturer looking to maintain my sales in an ever shrinking film market, it would be easier and probably more profitable to focus my facilities on fewer standard film sizes that were higher volume. For instance back in the day when I was doing all my own C printing for my business, I much preferred doing standard print sizes that I could print in volume rather than custom sizes (which I charged much more for, but was never really as profitable as the volume standard sizes).

---

I actually feel that the sales of non-standard film sizes stand alone as an incremental non-recognized market completely independent from sales in 4x5 and 8x10. I heard from inside sources that Kodak did not consider the fact that there was interest in these alternative formats and were pleasantly surprised (after the fact) at this incremental revenue stream. Initially that was why it was such a tough sales job. as they (Kodak) thought I was smoking something. Now Kodak gets it.

Consider this. In every sheet of 12x20 there are 12 sheets of 4x5 film. The orders of magnitude of gross units Kodak sold did in fact improve as the last ULF deal a master roll of TMY was sold in several months and concurrently sales of TMY 4x5 and 8x10 also increased in volume. Units of sales is all that matters to Kodak. The cutting machines are indifferent as to what proportions are fed into them. As a result I believe that these formats complimented each other. If a photographer that shoots ULF and LF can gain access to the same high quality emulsion across the board it makes sense to standardize on that particular film. Keeps things one dimensional and easier.

With the next offering I expect a similar synergy.

Cheers!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by D. Bryant

You guys don't have abything better to do but gripe about a new LF product announcement in the products forum?

Jeez Louise!

---

You apparently didn't read the first paragraph of my message. I said I had no problem with the announcement. That's hardly a gripe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hugo Zhang

James,

I believe Chamonix has dealers in Beijing, but I have not visited their stores. Ask Sandy who visited a Chamonix store in Beijing a few weeks ago. I am not sure they have a 12x20 waiting for you.

Hugo

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I don't believe there are stores in Beijing where you can see Chamonix cameras, but I don't know that for sure. When I was there in September one of the instructors from the China Arts Academy took me and my friend Sam Wang to the studio of the photographer He Chong Yue, who in addition to being a very important Chinese photographer is also one of the owner/managers of Chamonix. In his studio, which is located in an artist colony on the outskirts of Beijing, not far from the 798 artist center, Mr. He had a number of Chamonix cameras on display, including 4X5, 7X17, 4X10, 5X8, and 20X24. I did not see a 12X20, but then again I did not see the 7X17 until I asked. I did purchase a 7X17 directly at that time, at full market value, but I figure to have saved at least $250 or so on shipment since I took it with me on leaving.

He Chong Yue was in Atlanta recently for an exhibition of his work, and he was leaving the next day for New York. I attended the exhibition, and the next day interviewed him for a short article on his work. I do have direct contact information. Please contact him directly for information about Chamonix cameras on display in Beijing. His email is hechongyue@gmail.com. So far as I know Mr. He does not speak or read Chinese but I suspect he will find a way to answer your reply. If you are interested in more contact information please pm me.

I should mention one other thing. There is a huge camera mall in Beijing, called Camera World or something like that, where you will find dozens and dozens of different camera stores offering all kinds of high quality 35mm, MF and LF, and even ULF equipment, new and used. Best stuff in the world, though most of the prices are not that bargain. I saw Shen-Hao cameras in several of the stores but no Chamonix.

Sandy King

That would be off Wukesong rd. It's not too far a walk north from the subway stop ( I took a cab from Jinguoman). If you have a map, it's near or is the fourth ring road and the place is a candy store.Tons of small shops crowded into a large bullding. A friend who just came back picked up a Shen Hao there and is quite chuffed.

If 798 is the place I remember, it's quite a place filled with galleries and artist workshops. A very nice way to spend the day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sanking

I do have direct contact information. Please contact him directly for information about Chamonix cameras on display in Beijing. His email is hechongyue@gmail.com. So far as I know Mr. He does not speak or read Chinese but I suspect he will find a way to answer your reply.

Sandy King

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Sorry, that should have read, "So far as I know Mr. He does not speak or read English,"

His Chinese, so far as I am able to ascertain, is excellent.


Sandy King

Thank you! Sandy.

I have received a contact info. so I will check it out when I am there.

James.

OK, say a person wants to buy a Chamonix camera, how is it done and are the holders specific to the Chamonix cameras?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Turner Reich

OK, say a person wants to buy a Chamonix camera, how is it done and are the holders specific to the Chamonix cameras?

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OK, ways I know to try to buy a camera.

1. You could go to China. That worked for me.

2. You could try to contact He Chong Yue by email to see if Chamonix will sell direct to the customer as does Shen-Hao.

3. You could place your order through Hugo Zhang.

About the holders, no,they are not specific to Chamonix cameras. They are built to the same specifications as AWB.

Sandy King

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sanking

...About the holders, no,they are not specific to Chamonix cameras. They are built to the same specifications as AWB...

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That depends on the specific holder size. For 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 Chamonix cameras, the subject of this thread, compatible holders will be Lotus, Chamonix and Fotoman. Chamonix holders will match all Lotus specifications with the possible exception of outside thickness, which isn't important. On this page

http://www.filmholders.com/filmho1.html

AWB says his 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 holders are based on a T-dimension of 0.300-inch. That differs from the Lotus, Chamonix and Fotoman holders which use a T-dimension of 0.260-inch. See item 2 in Hugo's first post above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura

That depends on the specific holder size. For 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 Chamonix cameras, the subject of this thread, compatible holders will be Lotus, Chamonix and Fotoman. Chamonix holders will match all Lotus specifications with the possible exception of outside thickness, which isn't important. On this page

http://www.filmholders.com/filmho1.html

AWB says his 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 holders are based on a T-dimension of 0.300-inch. That differs from the Lotus, Chamonix and Fotoman holders which use a T-dimension of 0.260-inch. See item 2 in Hugo's first post above.

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I assumed the question to which I responded was more broadly aimed at Chamonix cameras rather than the whole plate format since the original subject of the thread had already been fairly well redirected before I joined it. As such, my remarks were meant to apply to ULF formats, not to 6.5 X 8.5 format.


Sandy King

I'm glad to see new products in LF (and in film/chemical based photography) announced - here - or anywhere for that matter. If Hugo Zhang can make a buck, good. Better two or three.... Ditto, Steve Simmons, Bob Salomon and anyone else making the photgraphic world go round.

We need suppliers and manufacturors.

I'm not sure it's productive to be quibbling when they post announcements for a new product in a forum called "New Products". Thanks to all of them for new LF products!

C

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gudmundur Ingolfsson

Hugo Zhang is like Seve Simmons. He (mis)uses this forum to promote his commercial
interest.

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Hugo's commercial interests are in our interest and entirely apropriate here as far as I can see. Keep the info coming Hugo.

Chris Dunham.

Few weeks ago Hugo Zhang said Chamonix web site will be up in a few weeks :)

Any chance?