You Know, This is How I Feed My Kids... On Field Etiquette

something a little off topic, but i thought i'd ask the community here to see what sort of varied responses i get.

a couple of weeks ago i was shooting in the canadian rockies at a rather well-visited lake. before sunrise, i hiked to a spot i had scouted the previous day and set-up. about 20 minutes later, another photographer shows up and proceeds to set-up right next to me. we started chatting; i really enjoy meeting other photographers in the field and trading notes. there is no better way to learn about shooting in an area foreign to you then by talking with locals, as is evidenced by this forum. we had a really nice conversation and he clued me in to a few spots i was previously unaware of. the sunrise was a disappointing, but his information proved very helpful over the days that followed.

a short while later a group of four tourists came walking by. on seeing us with our tripods, they came and stood around us and proceeded to take a few pictures in the same direction we had our cameras trained in. the other photographer angrily said to them,

"You know, this is how i feed my kids... go find your own shots."

the tourists seemed a bit surprised, and quickly went on their way. i thought this outburst by the other photographer was rather rude and uncalled for. truth be told, i was a bit embarassed. i find that very often while setting up a shot folks will come and take pictures similar to the one i am taking. i don't get angry, and usually some very pleasant conversation ensues.

i was just wondering how some of you guys handle yourselves when in this situation.

I have only ever seen this type of behaviour from a particularly ignorant wedding photographer. He went out of his way to ruin pictures taken by family members. The photographer you met would be slightly more justified if he hadn't stole your shot.

Unless someone is being a real pain in the butt, there is never a reason to be nasty.

I was shooting this past Sunday at the Twin Lights Historic Site in Highlands, NJ. One of the NJ Harley Davidson motorcycle clubs was there as part of one of their weekend rides. While I was setting up my 5X7 to get a shot of Sandy Hook, I got talking to a couple of the guys in the club. They got a real kick out of seeing the image on the groundglass, the size of the film holders, etc. I had them get all of their group together and I did a group shot of them. I emailed them a scan of the negative and sent them an 8X10. They loved it! We exchanged cards - you never know where the next portrait gig will come from...

As someone who has done a lot of wedding photography, I find that many guests are surprised that I am as willing to let them take shots as I am... I'll sometimes even shoot the picture with their camera, if they want-- hey, it saves my film, since most of these shots are not ones that brides usually want in their albums. I guess many of them have been conditioned by jerks who tell them off at weddings.
What's more, at a wedding, I have been contracted to be the sole photographer, and have some legal right to insist that I do not have "competitors". On the other hand, if I'm out in a national park or some other public land, I have no claim to rights (unless, of course, the parks commission has hired me...). What a shame, that this guy was so insecure in his own photography that he felt the need to run off the others.
By the way, how is it that you got there before the "pro" who had all the rights to that spot? And why didn't he give you a dressing-down?

Unless this other photographer actually built the Rockies, I can't find any possible way to respond to his comment other than considering it rude, ignorant, and damaging to the reputation of professional photographers.

When I was in Paris a few months back, I found an angle for a shot at Notre Dame that I'd never noticed before. There way something wonderful about the light, the atmosphere, and the image on the GG of my Bronica. (Nope, I didn't haul the LF stuff with me on this trip.) I set up to take some shots, and I'll bet at least two dozen other people came over and lined up their shots next to me. Unlike the person you met, I was flattered that people thought my composition was worthwhile. I'll stake my reputation on the fact that I know how to meter and compose more effectively than tourists with point-and-shoot and/or digicams, on my selection of the appropriate equipment for the shot, and on finding exactly the right exposure for the picture I envisioned.

When I developed the film, I found out that I'd captured exactly what I wanted and one of the shots has become one of my favorites. I'll bet that a number of tourists got good shots that day too. But I'll bet mine's better. And if I'm wrong, so what? I don't have any special access to Notre Dame, and the shot's been sitting there waiting to be taken for quite a while. Just because I "found it first" (which isn't even the case with the person you were next to), it isn't "mine". The image I create is mine, but that's as far as my rights extend.

It sounds like the person you were next to is more that a little insecure. It also sounds like he might actually be hurting himself, you, and any other professional photographer who shoots from that location. Do you think any of the tourists he brushed off would buy a sunrise shot from that location should they see one for sale? I doubt it, with the negative memories they now have associated with that location. If this is his modus operandi, he can be doing nothing but hurting himself and other professional photographers.

Just my opinion...but it'll take a strong argument to sway me on this one.

that's pretty bizarre ... as someone already mentioned, by his own logic he'd already stolen YOUR shot. in addition, it's funny to think that someone's tourist snapshots could somehow cut into his business. chalk it up to him being a "colorful local character," a.k.a. a nut case.

I wonder how that photographer would have responded if that group of tourists had broken out into a stirring rendition of "This Land Is Your Land....?"

No one "owns" a point of view, particularly in a national park. I had this issue with a university student once, who took an image in a park for my class. Some years later I was in the park near the spot and the light was unbelieveable. I found the same subject compeling from a slightly different but similar point of view, but of course our images were very different. Mine was LF b&w with "old testament" clouds his was 35 slide made on a clear day. Both were made from a popular spot along a public path. A bit later (maybe 3 or 4 years) my image was selected for a prestigious PBS local art award and featured on the cover in their magazine and exhibited widely.

He threatened to sue me for copyright infringement. Don't ask me the logic of that but he paid a lawyer to write me a letter. He also made a complaint against me to my professional organizations ASMP, SPE and also the dean of my school. Of course nothing came of any of it, but it did make me look bad to a few naive people who think that someone can "own" a point of view.

If anyone photographs in the national Parks in this century it is doubtful that you ever find a completely unique point of view. Hopefully we bring to a great image alot more than simply where we planted our feet.

I also teach alot of field workshops and it is not uncommon for a student to set up right next to me. Again "Hopefully we bring to a great image alot more than simply where we planted our feet." Come set up next to me anytime!

Since it was in Canada - it would have been kind of weird to have them sing "This Land Is Your Land".

I agree that the photographer shouldn't have been rude to the tourists, but I also think he shouldn't have set up right next to you. Maybe I'm just an anti-social photographer, but if I were out with my large format gear and saw another photographer already set up in a spot where I wanted to photograph, I would have respected his or her space and moved on. I wouldn't have the hutzpa (spelling?) to invade another photographer's space. Or if I really wanted the shot, out of courtesy, I would ask "mind if I set up beside you?"

"This land is their land,
It is not my land.
I take my pictures
which might get me banned."



etc....

I guess it takes all kinds . . . . Wonder what this guy was thinking? Perhaps you should have recommended that for privacy and solitude he visit Tunnel View at Yosemite. Or perhaps Artist Point in Yellowstone. I am sure he would have enjoyed those locations very much!

Its fun talking to passers by who want to know something about my camera, and even take a look at the ground glass. Its almost inevitable that people will stop by when they see a view camera planted in an area and pull out their cameras and/or start asking questions. Why should anyone worry, unless you don't have time to chat due to changing wind, weather, or light conditions? Its even possible (if unlikely) that one of these passers by became motivated to try that large format thing by one of these encounters that all of us have had.

I hope his kids are receiving adequate nutrition.

Kirk Gittings wrote: "Hopefully we bring to a great image a lot more than simply where we planted our feet. Come set up next to me anytime!"

I assist with Kirk on his architectural and commercial photography. Often times if we think we may have some extra time to do some exploring, I will bring my cameras along.

It's interesting how many times Kirk and I will walk up to almost the exact same spot to photograph. Of course, Kirk does his fine art work in B&W and I shoot color. Then there is the difference in focal lengths used and combined with slightly different angles produce similar but quite different photographs.

Is one better than the other? Maybe, maybe not. But they are certainly different.

Scott,

Out of curiosity, which lake was it? A 'well-visited' lake in the Canadian Rockies sounds like Lake Louise, or Moraine Lake...

I've had many experiences with people standing tripod-to-tripod with me, and only once has it turned into a bad experience. Light was changing, and the idiot that set up right beside me kept bumping into my tripod. Not a lot of fun.

I've also been in situations where, because I've had a 'big' camera, others have asked me to take their picture with their camera. I don't mind doing it, but it can get tiring after a while. The best one tho, and this was a lot of fun, was a few months back when I was up at Tangle Falls on the way to Jasper - this younger guy and gal had climbed up to the top of the falls where myself and a friend were photographing. I had watched them climb up, and they were literally all over each other - holding hands, major lip-lock, and so on. They wandered over and asked nicely if I would take a picture of them with their digicam. I obliged, and as it turns out, he had proposed to her the night before. No wonder they were so giddy :-) I was more than happy to give them a photograph they will hopefully have forever.

Personally, I don't care if someone stands beside me and makes a photograph while pointed in the same direction as me - chances are they're shooting color (I only do B&W), and what I'm photographing is almost certainly different than what they see. So, let 'em take the shot. It'll be different.

Jim is absolutely right about that, because also our markets are very different too. He is shooting editorial stock and I am shooting for galleries. i would like to think that I bring something special to an image more than where I stand.

On the other hand Dave:

"Its fun talking to passers by who want to know something about my camera, and even take a look at the ground glass."

To me making images is preferably a solitary experience and I don't like to get distracted by tourists. On the other hand again, a tourist once contacted me and bought a print from a negative that I made when he was talking to me. He had a special connection with that image because of our conversation.

Generally speaking though I am polite but disengaed. Once when shooting an assignment for New Mexico Magazine on a stormy day, I waited an hour for the sun to come out just long enough to get the shot. As I was about to shoot a tourist walked up with some questions and I blew him off so I could do my job. Later I went up to him and explained and tried to apologize. He called the magazine managing editor complaining that I was rude and that I was hurting tourism! The editor told him that my images of NM were more valuable than my disposition! Jesus! I had waited an hour to get light that lasted about 1 minute!

I'll bet his kids are very hungry.

Kirk,

I agree that sometimes conditions prevent an easygoing approach to interested passers by. As I mentioned, weather, light conditions, etc. have an impact. Similarly, if you are on assignment you are working, and should not be spending time talking to others.

When I can't take the time to talk, I just tell people just that, and that I would be happy to talk to them when I am finished. In my experience, once you are busily working with holders, metering, cocking the shutter, making exposures, etc., most people are respectful of my efforts and leave me alone. The passer by that you describe was quite out of tune with what you must have been doing just before and during that crucial time. I guess you just can't satisfy all of the people all of the time. Normally, I have found that it is the time when you are waiting and not busily working that attracts most inquiries from interested onlookers.

I agree that photography can be a very intense, concentrated experience. I have, however, often photographed together with my wife, father, father-in-law, and friends. I find it quite enjoyable, and like am fascinated by how different our photographs are. These group sessions often result in our sharing our visions through viewfinders or groundglass prior to or after exposures. We also often share with passers by. Unless the situation prevents it, the communal experience is very enjoyable for me. I just turn the concentration on when it is needed.

wow! i am really quite relieved to see i remain in the majority of photographers on this issue. people are always interested in the large format camera, and like kirk remarked on, i am always happy to entertain their questions, as long as that doesn't mean compromising a shot.

ed... as to why he didn't try to run me off, i'm not sure. he sure should have felt more threatened by a 4x5 camera than a $200 digicam. i assume i was out there a little before him because he better knew when the light was going to be good. when i'm in an unfamiliar area, i always try to get ready extra early.

ken... nice guess! it was in fact moraine.

i have found quite often that people are intrigued by the big old camera. i get a lot of questions, most regularly, "why don't you buy a new camera?" to which i usually respond, "cause there still aint nothin' better". if i am still met with furrowed brows, i'll show them a few polaroids... that does the trick every time.

thanks all for the great replies.

Reminds me of two things: First, once in Yellowstone, I watched about two dozen photographers, all with big lenses and tripods, photographing a splendid Bull Elk in a small pasture with a meandering stream at sunset. Truely spectacular scene, even if a bit mobbed. I, fortunately, decided not to partake. As it turns out, the Elk had had enough of the nuissance, charged at the photographers, and about half of them ran out of the way leaving their equipment at the fate of the charging Elk. Some equipment went into the stream, some got flipped into the air and stomped upon, and some luckily survived. I almost wet my pants laughing (sorry, not very considerate, I know!). But the point being that I think the Elk owns that spot and image!

Secondly, a joke (slightly modified). God is talking with a few scientists about cloning, and the scientists insist that it isn't that hard to create humans. After a bit of discourse, God challenged them to "walk their talk." So, the scientists proceeded to scoop up some dirt to start their experiment, at which God responded, "Get your own dirt!" Again, the point being ownership of any of this creation is not the exclusive realm of any single person.

I doubt he was a "local character". I find it hard to believe a Canadian would be that rude.

Beyond that however it was should get a reality check.

I was in Paris a number of years ago, touring Monet's home and garden. On the same bus was a professional photographer with his wife, both fellow americans, and I was just hacking about with my little 35mm Canon Rebel. While I had been into photography fairly seriously when I was younger, at this point I was just doing the odd snapshot.... I didn't even own a tripod.

At one point as this guy was setting up his Pentax 67, I wandered up behind him (in a very public space) and said something to the effect of "now I know where to take my photos.... I'll just follow you around". The guy swung around quickly, and I just smiled and indicated that I was kidding him, and wandered away. Later, I found him sitting on a bench chatting with my wife, and he and his wife invited us to dinner and then to go over to a certain spot he had scouted to take photos of the Eiffel Tower. As I was a rank beginner to this type of photography, he helped me with film choice, let me use his tripod, taught me how to meter and expose in the twilight to capture the image without blowing out the highlights of the fountains in the foreground with a lovely artistic blur. He took his time and helped me out to no end. I have that photograph on my wall and kept in touch over the years, and I credit him for rekindling my love for photography.

Now days, I'll be at the beach or in a garden or out on the street and have my lens pointed at some strange thing.... and people will look at me and what I'm photographing like I'm nuts. I invite them to look through the camera, and I regularly get "Wow.... I didn't even see that", and many times they'll bend over with their point and shoot and attempt the same photo. I love it.... and I love sharing it. I try to avoid it, but occasionally I'll go to Yosemite, Point Lobos, Muir Woods, or somesuch and put my tripod legs in the same well-worn holes that Weston or Adams or Baer did.... and I invite anyone to do the same with the scratchings of my tripod legs wherever they may be found.

Cheers all. D.

I wonder if that was an underhanded message subconsciously directed at you as you're his only 'conceivable' threat?

Sorry Scott! I thought everyone here was from California;-)

I look at it this way, if the guy is scared that he might be outdone by a bunch of turists taking snap shots, then he must not be very good.

I am the only photographer in Mexico with a 12x20, invariably I get questions about the camera, film, etc, etc. Not only am I glad to answer them, but I let the people peek under the cloth. Many a times, the same people pick their p&s and take the same picture I just showed them. If I am loosing the light I ask them to let me take the pic and afterwards I would be glad to show them. This has given me more access to places that other wise would have been unaccesible to me, like shooting a cathedral from the roof of a house, etc. Than I can count.

There is no excuse to be rude, and unfortunatelly, the behavior of that one moron reflects bad on the rest of us. I have always thought I should make it easier for the next guy that shows up with a camera, if you promise a print, make sure you send it. It is only good manners.

Perhaps he was worried all those cameras would wear out the view?

In fact this is becoming a serious problem: it has been shown by environmentalists that digital cameras wear out the view at a much higher rate than film cameras. By the end of the 21st century, the Canadian Rockies will be about 3 feet high, Half Dome will have to be renamed Eighth Hillock and the Yosemite falls will need to be renamed Yosemite Pond...

Cheers,

There is a "Canadianised" version of This Land...:

Quote:

---

This land is your land, this land is my land,
From Bona Vista to Vancouver Island,
From the Arctic Islands to the Great Lakes waters;
This land was made for you and me.

---

Woody Guthrie's best verse that they don't teach you in elementary school:

As I went walking, I saw a sign there;

And on the sign there, It said, 'NO TRESPASSING.'

But on the other side, It didn't say nothing.

That side was made for you and me.

Not to mention:

In the squares of the city, In the shadow of a steeple;

By the relief office, I'd seen my people.

As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking,

Is this land made for you and me?

Ol' Woodie was a great one.

I enjoy having people come up and talk to me while I'm taking a photograph. A couple of months ago I was in a national park with my Agfa 8x10. A 70 year old guy came up to me and started telling me how he had used an identical Agfa 8x10 when he was a Army photographer during WWII. What made the conversation even more interesting is the fact that my AGFA has a plaque on the side of it that says "property of US ARMY" Maybe it was even THE camera he used in the military. Even when its only someone with a 35mm point and shot, I nearly always enjoy meeting people this way.

"I wonder if that was an underhanded message subconsciously directed at you as you're his only 'conceivable' threat? -- André, "

Probably more to the point than you might suppose and not too subconsciously either.