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Hi everyone! This is my first post and I apologize if it's already been addressed elsewhere on this site. I've been purchasing a large format camera piece by piece over the last few months. I have almost all of the components that I need. My question is, can someone tell me what type of glue I should use to attach the bellows to the frame? The 4x5 Cambo that I purchased already has a bellows on it, but it's starting to come undone at one corner and I would like to reattach it.
Thanks.
I'll take a stab at this. Mind you I'm only brain-storming here for you. Any wooden camera w/fabric or leather bellows could be repaired with a with a good wood glue such as Titebond or even hide glue. I'm assuming your Cambo frame to be metal (aluminum?) in which case you might try one of the super glues if you only have to touch up a corner. Reversibility would not be a problem as you could always use a razor blade to re-separate the bellows from the frame if you needed to re-do it. Alternatively, try calling one of the recommended camera repair shops around the country Calumet (?). I can't offer any other names for off the top of my head but a quick search should get you some phone numbers. Good luck!
I am not sure that is the best answer, but points for trying. I want to know the answer also. I am sure there are a few options. I 'heard' contact cement, but what kind and how, I sure don't know. Soon I want to replace a bellows and at $200 and up, I would rather not mess it up.
I also hate contact cement, very messy, and hard to use for any other project I have tried.
Super Glue is often not very super.
Let's wait and see what comes along.
Pliobond is what I've heard come up
My favorite glue for just about everything was found because I needed to glue down some Parquet wood flooring in a bedroom. I purchased a tub of Universal Flooring adhesive at a local home improvement center. Technically I would call it heavy-duty rubber cement. It states on the tub that it is non-solvent based. It has a semi-pleasant smell and the consistency of margarine. I spread a layer on both surfaces to be glued using a flat artist brush, let it set for a minute, and then clamp them together to dry for a day or two. Being rubber, the surfaces can be separated at a later date by forcing a wedge between the surfaces. But, under normal conditions the adhesive holds exceptionally well. Plus it cleans up with water. You may be able to wrangle some from a local contractor.
I used this adhesive to install a new bellows in my Sands & Hunter Exhibition, and to make repairs on several other plate cameras over the years. It works like a dream.
Attachment 93257
Sounds like a good goo, how is the shelf life? I don't mind having too much, if it doesn't dry up in a year or 10.
Never use superglue on bellows, or anything that is fabric, the glue will wick into the
fabric of the bellows and make it nice and crispy rigid, not what you want for something
that's supposed to bend.
Use contact cement, Pliobond is one brand, Weldwood ( red label, my preference ), or Barge.
clean the undone area as best you can with a little acetone or alcohol, apply the contact cement
to the bellows and the frame with tooth pick if it's a small area, let dry then press together.
Randy, if you are referring to the Wood Flooring adhesive, I've been sourcing adhesive from the same tub for about ten to twelve years. The jelly jar pictured is about 4 years old now. If it's sealed in an air-tight container it really shouldn't dry up. I'd say it stores really well. Though, it would be hard to justify buying a tub full.Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Moe
Thanks, I was referring to your suggested glue. I do all kinds of things with this type of glue. I will look for some. I used to use a proprietary automotive contact adhesive that was purchased by Loctite and discontinued along with our entire unique line of chemicals. A disappointing loss of technology. I need a replacement.
Thank you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Fart
Lowes online lists several products that are referred to as Universal Flooring Adhesives. If it is a non-solvent and water clean-up type, then I'll bet its the same type. The product listed as "Wall Base" adhesive might be the same stuff in a smaller tube package. If I see some, I'll pick it up to do a comparison.
Ha!, you are as bad as me, any excuse to add a tool or resource.
Last time I knocked some 30 year old wall base off cement, it was hard and dry. Really not a good test for bellows. I will pick some up soon also.
Lowes is far, Home Depot and Menards much closer. Maybe I should check Grainger for truly industrial strength. They are actually closest, they love to give me funny looks when I 'will call' a $5.00 gizmo.
I had a Calumet C1 fully stretched for a week, and was amazed the bellows did not loosen. Glue testing before sale...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Fart
Years ago I glued a new bellows following manufacturer`s recomendation; it was contact glue, neoprene based, the one used by shoemakers. Probably the easiest to find glue in any place.
Never have had a problem in this years, hot and cold weather, it looks like the first day.
A shoe glue is a good tip to follow up on (Shoe-Goo?). They are amazingly strong and flexible. The super glue idea is not entirely uninformed as it bonds well to both metal and fabric . It does dry hard (like many glues) but since the aluminum is somewhat "crispy" as well, that did not seem an issue. You would want to apply it accurately to make sure it goes only on the point of contact with the metal though. BTW, JJLouis, how many inches or millimeters do you have to repair?
I did a check at Lowes this morn, and the adhesive labeled as "Wall Base" adhesive is definitely "NOT" the same material as the wood flooring adhesive I use. But, that doesn't mean it wouldn't work. I noticed a dried example, and it has the consistency of dried epoxy.
Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Fart
Contact cement worked well for me when I was building my bellows.
Contact adhesive is the correct glue, it's also known as Impact adhesive and the word cement used instead of adhesive in some parts of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew O'Neill
A big differance is some are water based and others solvent based but once dry have similar strengths. There's a move away from solvent based adhesives because of abuse by solvent sniffers :D
Ian
The sniffers are probably what caused Krylon to discontinue the old Ultra Flat Black spray paint.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanG
Anyone who's ever used the old formula knows what I'm talking about. ;)
Plio-bond is the bee's knees.
I used for a couple of Technika bellow repairs, and it works perfectly.
Is there more than type, a quick search, showed some low VOC, that can't be any good right?
How about this. http://www.amazon.com/W-J-Ruscoe-P61...d_sim_sbs_lg_1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari
Hi everyone! Thank you all for your responses. I've done some more research and it seems like contact cement is the way to go; Plio-Bond being a brand of contact cement. I'll let you all know how it turns out.
Gosh, some of you guys are sure trying hard to ruin your camera! What you want is Barge Cement, the same thing shoe
repairmen use for leather and rubber. It remains pliable under a wide variety of conditions. It is used like a contact cement,
as is it's wimpy second cousin, Plio-Bond. But don't use regular contact cement or some goofy construction adhesive that goes brittle in a matter of weeks.
Drew, this is why we are asking. Installing new bellows is not cheap and the first time for me will be nerve wracking. The wrong goo, can ruin a week, not just a day.
I would love even more tips, on how to exactly do it. I have several cameras that need bellows. I even have the replacement bellows, but until I am confident in glue and procedure they will wait.
I have worked with all kinds of contact cement and I never liked any of them. 3M Weather strip adhesive is pretty strong, but, I never trust it. I replaced aa unreplaceable window in my van with a homemade lexan window and fastened it in place with double sided 3M Weather strip TAPE, and that stuff is really sticky, but I doubt it is the first choice of anyone for bellows.
I am amazed at the job, someone did replacing bellows on cameras, I know do not have original bellows. No trace of the sticky glue and those bellows are stuck very well.
I am sure I am not the only one that is awaiting advice. As we all know there are few camera shops doing this repair anywhere in the world.
Thanks for the tip on Barge Cement, non-drying would be a good feature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Wiley
Randy - 3M makes so many different products that it's bewildering. The problem is finding them, or even navigating their
hopelessly convoluted website. Products are distributed thru multiple divisions which don't speak to each other; and there are
some remarkable adhesives in tech divisions which you simply won't find in any home center or hardware store, not will you
find anyone at 3M able to answer questions. I do 100K per yr with them here, and told them I could triple that business if
anyone could help us navigate the product maze. Even that kind of money didn't get their interest, and I eventually gave up on them. But good ole Barge Cement it tried and true, and readily available. Read the instructions and follow them. I've only
repaired bellows, never made em. But I have ordered custom bellows from some outfit in Florida with satisfaction.
I even have a tube of Barge, but never used it yet on Mission Critical jobs.
Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Wiley
Always test on something of less value first, regardless ...
That's what all contact/impact adhesives (cements) are designed to do :D (well the ones I've come across).Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Wiley
Ian
Of course. Some people think all I do is test...But I have worked in Chem and Material test labs all my life. Testing becomes a habit. I will test some Barge today and check it for 30 days at least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Wiley
That's the stuff!Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Moe
But I'm not sure what VOC means.
VOC means Volatile Organic Compounds, the poisonous stinky solvents that make it work good.
For MY bellows I would chose high VOC and use it under a vent hood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari
Yes, Barge will get you high, or blow up your shop if you light a ciggie ... good ole high-VOC stuff. And Ian - there are many kinds of contact cement. Most of them are intended to be firm. You wouldn't want to glue down Formica and have it wiggly or peel up, would you? Shoe glue, on the other hand, is intended to remain flexible. The problem with high VOC liquid in certain cases, esp in hot weather, is that it will attack vinyl and potentially melt it. I don't know if any camera mfg is such a skinflint
as to use thin vinyl on actual camera bellows. I would outgas and eventually go brittle itself. I have seen vinyl used for aftermarket compendium lens shades.
This thread is still rolling and since I have another bellows project in my future I thought I'd make some phone calls on the subject. I called Leather Supply House (www.leathersupplyhouse.com) in NJ and talked to Mike. He was very helpful and said they use a glue he referred to as a PVCE glue. Flexible, durable, and somehow reversible (repairable). He didn't know what the E meant in the PVCE but said that they sell the stuff along with a great supply of leathers for bellows. BTW, he mentioned using felt for the stiffeners which is a good tip if you are looking to build a really flexible bellows for your wide movements. I also talked to Jose at Calumet who was generous with his time as well. On Cambos he uses a product by Loctite called "Vinyl, Plastic and Fabric", right out of the hardware store. Evidently a kind of contact cement. "just be sure to give it 4-5 hrs to dry" he said. So that's enough info for me to go on as far as the glue. Does anyone know what thickness or weight is best for a camera bellows?
So, after looking into Barge cement I quickly found lots of negative feedback on the new stuff (minus toluene) in the blue tube. The yellow stuff is still available from a few places.
http://www.filmtools.com/bargecement1.html Apparently, the stinkier the better.
Thanks!
I will order some good old toluene Barge.
There is a big movement to remove all 'dangerous' chems from consumer store shelves.
Yesterday, my upstairs neighbor got a new water heater, they used one heck of a lot of PVC glue, I was choking all day. The fumes seek ground level, and she complains about my darkroom odors, yet, I don't have a functional main darkroom yet, it's all in my well vented bathroom. and I don't use acetic acid...
She also uses oil paints which are not the most pleasant.
I'm following this thread because I may need to replace a bad bellows. Somebody tried to do it for me, but he left a lot of leaks around the front standard. I think it's because he didn't get the old glue off completely when he took the old bellows off. How do you clean the front and back standards when you have taken off the old bellows, before you glue the new one on?
I use a lot of single edge razor blades for this type of work
I buy a 100 at a time and use them bare handed
Ok, I like those things too. Just wondering: after you've scraped as much as possible off, do you use some sort of solvent to get the front and back completely clean?
Everybody USED to use Trichloroethene which I think is banned almost everywhere
I lost 2 coworkers to that poison, we had it in spray cans, i used it under a vent hood, they would not, no matter how loud I yelled...or begged, they died
Not kidding
Acetone, Isopropyl alcohol but scraping is what works... I use the razor blade perpendicular to the surface, and replace them often when scraping metal
Ok, I won't use trichloroethylene! I was also thinking alcohol might work.
I used "Goof Off" which worked fine. The can says it is a "general purpose adhesive remover" that contains "Acetone and Xylene." For the glue I used "Pilobond 25" which also worked fine. The bottle says it is "VOC compliant" but doesn't say what it contains.
Thomax
Goof Off is still pretty strong and a good choice
I used the highly flammable contact cement for making bellows the last time: installing the stiffeners, affixing the black cloth inside layer, and attaching to the frames on the camera. I had access to a fume hood, however, for doing the work. It is a pain to work with and messy and the fumes are intense w/o ventilation. Indeed, a year plus later, if I open that camera it still smells like the contact cement if you get up close.
The previous bellows was made almost entirely with a craft glue that comes in a brown bottle, ?Tacky Glue?
+1 that you want something flexible, super glue is NOT that. On wooden pens and other small objects super glue makes a nice hard varnish!
Hide glue dries hard, but would be good for wood camera repair of the wood parts (not the bellows) especially if the camera will never see rain in outdoors use. Hide glue can be un-done, the usual wood glues don't stick to themselves when they are dry. Consequently, it's a pain to do restoration work with them: you have to remove it ALL which usually means removing some of the wood substrate.
I've used the titebond pre-made hide glue for fixing two wooden cameras and their film holders. Both cameras are in the neighborhood of 100 years old. I may convert over to using hide glue for essentially all my woodworking. I flatter myself that someone might want to repair something I've made after I'm dead and gone, and I'd like it to be relatively easy for them to do! Hide glue also has a longer open time and washes out of clothing and off my skin unlike some other glues.
+1 for the Goof Off. 3M makes a citrus (limonene) based solvent type adhesive remover, expensive and potent stuff. Goo Gone works too and I buy it in tiny bottles. It's natural, but I keep it off my hands.
In the USA an outfit called "Zoro" (only one "R") has some liquid glues for sale - 4-6 oz. jar with a brush. They are the tamed-down version of classic VOC (volatile organic compound) solvent products, now re-formulated to be safer & eco-friendly. Used some to install a new bellows on a Kodak Model 2 Whole-plate camera. Sets quickly but not instantly, so you can move things around & align them, but don't have to clamp things overnight as if it was "wood shop" class.-alfredian
I was told, when I bought my Arca Swiss camera, that Loctite 480 Black was the recommended glue to reaffix loose bellows. Since I ended up sending it to Precision Camera Works for a full overhaul, I never needed to buy the Loctite, but figured I'd pass along the tip.
Trichloro has been banned from use for a long time. It killed just too many people. No joke. I don't know how anyone is acquiring it unless from a chem supply house. It was sold as movie film cleaner. PEC is a safer substitute. Anything called "VOC compliant" just means it isn't smog forming, related to air-quality labeling, not to human safety! Trichloro was sold as "safety solvent" because it wasn't flammable, again not related to human physiology. It got added to things like siding stains. Ironically, an electrician working nearby got goofy and managed to burn down the house. In a number of cases house painters got goofy and fell off scaffolding and died. Janitors would use it to remove wax and gum from floors because it wouldn't damage vinyl tile; but it was originally developed as an anesthetic, the janitors would pass out and be found dead on the floor in the morning because Trichloro is heavier than air and they had asphyxiated. These are all cases I knew about personally, and didn't read about! But the main reason DOW stopped industrial mfg is because of carcinogenic dioxins which remained in solution as a by-product. Most suitable glues like Pliobond or Barge Cement contain solvents like Xylene or Toluene, so you want to use them with ventilation. Ever meet a glue-sniffer? Precisely the same thing. Acetone is much safer but evaporates just too quickly to be the primary solvent. Goof Off might attack a vinyl bellows. Always do a tiny spot test first, where it won't hurt anything.
Pliobond is what I've used for years for attaching bellows. It works. Clamp your work well and let it rest, in clamps, overnight. I've used it for bellows from sub-4x5 to 12x20.