Super Graphic Solenoid Replacement?

After finally getting on with my idea of putting a small Chinese-made circuit board in my Super Graphic to kick the voltage up, I find myself disappointed at the project. So I have another idea. How about putting a regular low-voltage solenoid from a Speed or Crown in place of the 45V one in the Super? I got out my dial caliper and it certainly looks doable. The Crown/Speed solenoid is actually a hair smaller in diameter than the Super one, except at the base, where the plug goes in. It's slightly bigger there than the diameter of the Super's solenoid. But I also notice the solenoid on the Super has a wee bit of wiggle room. And if that isn't quite enough, there's plenty of soft metal in the frame that could be wallowed out a hair, with no harm done.
And the Super's battery bay certainly has room for at least 4 or more AAA batteries. So first a question--just exactly what is the correct voltage of the Speed Graphic solenoid? Is it 3V or 4.5, or either? And what voltage would I end up running that battery power through the normal circuit in the Super Graphic? Attached is the circuit of the super Graphic. Does anybody see something wrong with my idea that I'm not getting? Thank you. PS attached also is a photo of the Super Graphic solenoid in it's correct position.
Attachment 175764

They operate interchangeably with either 2 or 3 D-cells, depending on which flash handle is used.

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Originally Posted by HT Finley

just exactly what is the correct voltage of the Speed Graphic solenoid

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What Brian said. Three to 4.5 volts. You are over-thinking the issue. As you investigate further you might find some not-very-bright ideas of adding a capacitor, but that was due to the impoverished capacity of early batteries. Do not bother.

I am not sure what you mean by 'solenoid replacement', but keep in mind the solenoid synchronized the bulb flash timing with the shutter - usually firing the bulb 50ms before actuating the solenoid, therefore the shutter.

Solenoids are common and inexpensive. Go for one.

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Originally Posted by Jac@stafford.net

What Brian said. Three to 4.5 volts. One wire plus ground. You are over-thinking the issue.
As you investigate further you might find some not-very-bright ideas of adding a capacitor, but that was due to the impoverishes capacity of early batteries. Do not bother.
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Do you mean, just run the batteries through the red switch, and cutting out any capacitors entirely? I am overthinking it, but that's just my way. I'd rather overthink and find out the job was much easier, than to dive into a job and find I got in way over my head. Back in the day, Graflites invariably used phootflash batteries, which had a whole lot of instantaneous kick. Almost their own capacitor. I haven't experimented with how many AAA's I can fit in the Super Graphic battery bay, but I know it's at least 4. So I could solder up 2 pairs each in parallel, and have my 3V. I don't think 6 AAA's will fit. But if they do, then I could have 3 pairs of AAA's. Since they're $1 a 4-pack at the dollar tree, I bet I could get at least 25 shutter trips out of the set. I really do want my red button to work, and I don't want to tear up my near-mint camera installing knucklehead homebrew ideas.

I would think so, Henry. But I’m not an electrical engineer.

I didn’t know that folks used phtoflash batteries... I used plain Duracell.

The red button is a fantastic aid when shooting handheld (I really miss being able to use mine), but have you thought of using a Pacemaker board with solenoid and a Graflite handle? If your not interested in the SuperGraphic’s internal flash synch connectivty to the 3-hole plug it’s a fast and effective solution. Plus there’s a handle!

Back then there were only carbon zinc and photoflash batteries. I remember reading to never use the carbon zinc in a flash because they couldn't deliver enough instant amperage. Back then, they both leaked like a sieve, but photoflash batteries were notorious for making a mess.

Edit: I have a very nice, absolute mint Speed and a very nice Graflite to go with it. But I want to use my Super. I got rid of my Calumet because the Super was all the view camera I needed, when I need some movements. That Super Graphic and its red button hand-held is the stuff.

I completely put leaky carbon-zinc batteries out of my mind. Now I understand!

BTW, when I bought that Super, I also bought a Strobonar 682S, which is the latest thyristor model, and takes regular AA batteries. AND, the same mounting brackets from the Graflite fit on the Strobonars. It's a very nice outfit. Once I get my red button working, between that and my Grafmatic holders, that can be a very hot working camera.

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Originally Posted by HT Finley

BTW, when I bought that Super, I also bought a Strobonar 682S, which is the latest thyristor model, and takes regular AA batteries. AND, the same mounting brackets from the Graflite fit on the Strobonars. It's a very nice outfit. Once I get my red button working, between that and my Grafmatic holders, that can be a very hot working camera.

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Are the caps ok in that flash?

I’m still using flash bulbs, and when not I’ve grafted a Vivitar 285 onto a Graflite.

perfect

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Originally Posted by Bob Salomon

Are the caps ok in that flash?

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Originally Posted by HT Finley

perfect

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So it recycles properly and fires properly after all these years and gives at least a roll of flashes per recharge or set of cells?

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Originally Posted by Bob Salomon

So it recycles properly and fires properly after all these years and gives at least a roll of flashes per recharge or set of cells?

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It takes 6 AA's and Ive sat here and popped it off (on thyristor auto) a whole lot more times than a roll of film's worth and going strong.

Y'know, with electonic flash a solenoid is unnecessary. Just connect the flash cable to the shutter's sync terminal, set the sync to X and go.

The Super Graphic solenoid has nothing to do with flash. It is to trip the shutter and nothing else. The flash plugs into a socket on the bottom right of the camera body. That socket is connected to the flash socket on the lens. The 2 systems have nothing to do with the other.

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Originally Posted by Dan Fromm

Y'know, with electonic flash a solenoid is unnecessary. Just connect the flash cable to the shutter's sync terminal, set the sync to X and go.

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Originally Posted by HT Finley

The Super Graphic solenoid has nothing to do with flash. It is to trip the shutter and nothing else. The flash plugs into a socket on the bottom right of the camera body. That socket is connected to the flash socket on the lens. The 2 systems have nothing to do with the other.

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However you trip the shutter controls how the flash is fired. They are intimently connected to each other!

I’d assume that Henry’s camera has an Optar 135 in a Graphex X-M shutter, or a X shutter. Whether the flash is connected to the shutter via the body ports or directly to the shutter bi-post should be immaterial, except those synch foils in the bellows often go bad or become unreliable. Once connected how the shutter is tripped is immaterial, as Henry sez, for a strobe. But a solenoid release sure makes picture taking a bit easier.

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Originally Posted by BrianShaw

I completely put leaky carbon-zinc batteries out of my mind. Now I understand!

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Can we even buy 'leaky' batteries today? I have flash units with modern batteries sitting for years. No problem.

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Originally Posted by Jac@stafford.net

Can we even buy 'leaky' batteries today? I have flash units with modern batteries sitting for years. No problem.

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Actually, yes. I’ve recently had some Duracell alkaline batteries leak. Certainly not as bad as in the old days but the cap joint oozed it’s goo on several of my remote controls and a Nikon MD-4 battery holder. Its infrequent but still happens.

Thanks Brian. I have indeed considered the foil strips in the bellows. Since mine is the early-style Super, it has the foil and contact points where the bellows meet the rear standard. I fully expect that these foil strips were broken by metal fatigue of the constant opening and closing of the camera. In fact I'm so sure the strips are bad, I was not even going to attempt using them. Even if they do still work, how long? I intend to use the sh out of this camera. That's why I have already concocted an idea to run wire down the bellows, probably on the exterior. If you have observed the way the cable release runs the length of the bottom of the bellows on Speeds and Crowns. I intend to do work that is reversable, and not alter the camera to any degree that would detract from its originality. I put my 68 Camaro Convertibe back to exact stock, and that's the way I do things. When I kick off and the camera makes its way to the next owner, he's not going to be handed something that a boob has bastardized.

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Originally Posted by BrianShaw

I’d assume that Henry’s camera has an Optar 135 in a Graphex X-M shutter, or a X shutter. Whether the flash is connected to the shutter via the body ports or directly to the shutter bi-post should be immaterial, except those synch foils in the bellows often go bad or become unreliable. Once connected how the shutter is tripped is immaterial, as Henry sez, for a strobe. But a solenoid release sure makes picture taking a bit easier.

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Well, looky here. 6 AAA's fit in the battery bay of a Super Graphic. That means 3 parallel-wired doublets, or 2 trios. 3 or 4.5V
choices, and lots of capacity. I bet you could kick a Crown or Speed solenoid a lot of times with that much capacity. Now the question as to whether a smarter mind would add any capacitors, resistor, and diodes between the batteries, switch, and solenoid. An always off circuit, closed only when the button is pressed. None of this foolishness with bad capacitors running down your batteries when you're not using the camera. So, the new plan is to subsitiute the Super solenoid with one from a Speed/Crown, with enough kick to run it, and open-circuit until needed instantaneously. I welcome anyone shooting down my grand plans. Think it'll work?Attachment 175766

Why not just buy the special battery? That’s what I did for my Super Graphic, I did a google search for the odd size found it, stuck it in the camera and it’s worked for years.

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Originally Posted by brucetaylor

Why not just buy the special battery? That’s what I did for my Super Graphic, I did a google search for the odd size found it, stuck it in the camera and it’s worked for years.

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Don’t simplify things!

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Originally Posted by BrianShaw

Actually, yes. I’ve recently had some Duracell alkaline batteries leak. Certainly not as bad as in the old days but the cap joint oozed it’s goo on several of my remote controls and a Nikon MD-4 battery holder. Its infrequent but still happens.

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Bummer! I'm going into my storage unit tomorrow to check!
Thanks, Brian.

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Originally Posted by Bob Salomon

Don’t simplify things!

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They are incredibly expensive... when/if they can found.

I ordered my Speed/Crown solenoid today. If this idea doesn't work, I can abandon the Super Graphic project entirely, and just go back to reaching around front for the top of the shutter actuation part. I'm not going to buy special order Chinese made batteries to the tune of 40-some-odd dollars a pop. When this camera was made, it could be operated off items available at any drug store. There's not a reason in the world why this Super Graphic can't be used with full effectiveness for any photographic situation, to compete with any other camera new or used. I wish the designer of it had done a few things different, but all-in-all it's still a good camera. Come to think of it, it could be the last of the great American-made cameras, along with the Kodak Medalist II.
I'll try to report back on the solenoid conversion. But rest assured, I do not intend to bastardize this camera with irreversible knucklehead homegrown boob work. Or throw money down a rat hole on operating it.

I Googled “eveready 412” and found the 22.5V battery for $24.95. So $50 for two. It was worth it for me, no monkeying around. But to each his own. Last time I took the Super Graphic out they were 3 or 4 years old and working fine.

The other thing you can do (if you insist on a solenoid release, which is nice) is some older Graphic lenses had the solenoid mounted on the lensboard (by the shutter release) that operated on the standard 3 cells flashholder (instead, you can get/make a small battery pack with AA's etc), mount the solenoid on your favorite lensboard/lens, and use that as a workaround for the camera system, without the $$$ battery...

Steve K

My Super worked with batteries I got on ebay from China but I had to take the casing off to get them to fit in, then my super shutter failed. So, what I did was run a shutter release cable to left top of the casing and gaffer taped a plastic hook on there to which I slotted in the cable button end which then lies just above the little red button so I can fire the shutter the same way. This means I can use the same setup with any lens. Oh, I leave the cable attached to the lens when closing the camera and just coil it around the lens.

I recently found a replacement super 1000 shutter, all speeds working even 1/1000s! So I have just got another set of batteries, $10 a pair, and they fit better after squidging the cases a bit, so can fire that lens electronically. I'll have to see how long the batteries last. It would be nice to work out a mechanism to use the solenoid to fire shutters of other lenses on generic lens boards, else the release cable routing trick works pretty well, though a bit messy.

Richard

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Originally Posted by LabRat

The other thing you can do (if you insist on a solenoid release, which is nice) is some older Graphic lenses had the solenoid mounted on the lensboard (by the shutter release) that operated on the standard 3 cells flashholder [...]

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That is true and is all the information one needs. 4.5V actuates the shutter's solenoid. How much more simple can it be? Heck, you can jack it up to 9V. The solenoid doesn't care.