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Bernice Loui
11-Jan-2013, 09:54
Ventured on to this forum back in 2008 and returned for a short time in 2012, 2013.. only to discover this forum which was once a good place to share now has become a place of established individuals with an agenda who bicker and fight for the sake of ?

My initial intent to return was with the idea of helping others and sharing the image making process, instead, LFF parts of LFF has become semi hostel for those who many see things differently.


Bernice

Pawlowski6132
11-Jan-2013, 09:55
I think that's an over generalization.

Kevin Crisp
11-Jan-2013, 09:56
Good luck with your photography. Keep buying film.

ROL
11-Jan-2013, 10:36
LFF parts of LFF has become semi hostel for those who many see things differently.


Bernice

I once stayed overnight at the semi hostel when I was younger. Not a good place to do photography.

Will Whitaker
11-Jan-2013, 11:17
Posts like the one above underscore your point. I wish you the best.

Roger Cole
11-Jan-2013, 11:18
Good luck with your photography. Keep buying film.

What he said.

I see the same thing on other special interest forums. People show up expecting, I don't really know but it seems like an oasis of kindness and benevolence, and find some of that and some nastiness and generally just people behaving like people. Ok, a little worse, as humans tend to be less civil dealing with text on a screen than dealing with someone in person. Somehow this surprises folks. This is actually one of the nicer places I hang out, but I pretty much expect the bad with the good.

Roger Cole
11-Jan-2013, 11:19
Posts like the one above underscore your point. I wish you the best.

Really? It was a joke based on a misspelling, or usage mistake (very possibly caused by auto correct.) It may not be your taste in humor but many people try to lighten serious moods with humor. It's human. So are the people behind posts. We won't like them all and all of them won't like us or see things the same way. Some will say nasty things (which that wasn't.) It's life. It's no different online.

cosmicexplosion
11-Jan-2013, 11:24
It's not good that some one wants to leave.
It's probably my fault
Why don't you stick around and look at the sunny side.

There is an old saying that is apt for photographers.

Where there is light there is shadow.

Sal Santamaura
11-Jan-2013, 11:27
I'm pretty much done here...

Ventured on to this forum back in 2008 and returned for a short time in 2012, 2013.. only to discover this forum which was once a good place to share now has become a place of established individuals with an agenda who bicker and fight for the sake of ?...Explaining why the small minority of those who do that behave the way they do is beyond me and off the topic of large format photography. However, they are a small minority of those visiting, if not posting. It has always been that way here. If you and others interested in making useful contributions to the community leave as a result, the abrasive, argumentative, irrelevant people will have "won." Don't let them do that.

I appreciate your posts and suggest you continue making them, shunning the trolls at all times. It's only when paid attention that they continue degrading this forum.

Sal Santamaura
11-Jan-2013, 11:35
I once stayed overnight at the semi hostel when I was younger. Not a good place to do photography.


Posts like the one above underscore your point. I wish you the best.


Really? It was a joke based on a misspelling, or usage mistake...Given that we have no knowledge of whether the OP is a native English speaker, it was a rude, obnoxious joke. Juvenile at best, like so many of the "jokes" one finds here.


...It may not be your taste in humor but many people try to lighten serious moods with humor...I'd be less certain about the motivation than you appear to be.


...nasty things (which that wasn't.)...I'm less certain about that than you are.

ScottPhotoCo
11-Jan-2013, 11:37
Bernice,

I, for one, have found your knowledge, input and experience very interesting and helpful. I hope that you change your mind.

Any "public" space is going to have its fair share of fools. I use the "ignore" tool liberally as I have found there ARE really great people living among the others. You just have to be a bit patient and tolerant of the useless and dig to find the good stuff. I have purchased some great equipment at reasonable prices here and have (for the most part) enjoyed learning and partaking in the dialogue here. Seems that much of the world has succumbed to the "reality" show trend and feels like there has to be drama in everything. I will ignore the foolishness and drama and still continue to use this board as a place of learning and opportunity for communication with like-minded LF enthusiasts.

Best,

Tim
www.ScottPhoto.co

Roger Cole
11-Jan-2013, 11:43
Given that we have no knowledge of whether the OP is a native English speaker, it was a rude, obnoxious joke. Juvenile at best, like so many of the "jokes" one finds here.

I'd be less certain about the motivation than you appear to be.

I'm less certain about that than you are.

While I agree with your previous post this one is humor of its own type, albeit (I think) unintended.

You seem awfully certain of things for claiming to be uncertain. I'm not certain of anything either, but prefer to think well of people unless its other intent is clear. It may have been thoughtless given what you say about not knowing the OP, but it certainly didn't sound malicious to me. If the worst thing someone does to me is make a joke based on a word mistake I'll have a good day.

Ken Lee
11-Jan-2013, 11:45
"...only to discover this forum which was once a good place to share now has become a place of established individuals with an agenda who bicker and fight"

We have been banning troublesome and rude forum members.

Please let us know about any recent cases that may have escaped the attention of the moderators.

You shouldn't have to write this sort of message.

photobymike
11-Jan-2013, 11:45
Ventured on to this forum back in 2008 and returned for a short time in 2012, 2013.. only to discover this forum which was once a good place to share now has become a place of established individuals with an agenda who bicker and fight for the sake of ?

My initial intent to return was with the idea of helping others and sharing the image making process, instead, LFF parts of LFF has become semi hostel for those who many see things differently.


Bernice

I fight with my brothers all the time.but i still respect them.. and want to hear what they have to say.....

yea many times people take there frustrations out here.... but its the times we live in and the average age of the people that frequent this forum. I can honestly say hanging out here has helped me get along with some of what i would consider the strangest people/photographers. It also gave me tolerance to hear other peoples opinions even they are totally wrong ... LOL LOL....sit back with a warm cup of coffee and enjoy the diverse opinion on this forum..... you have a friend here anytime you need ..... michael :)

Roger Cole
11-Jan-2013, 11:56
"...only to discover this forum which was once a good place to share now has become a place of established individuals with an agenda who bicker and fight"

We have been banning troublesome and rude forum members.

Please let us know about any recent cases that may have escaped the attention of the moderators.

You shouldn't have to write this sort of message.

Thanks Ken.

mikebarger
11-Jan-2013, 12:03
What he said.

I see the same thing on other special interest forums. People show up expecting, I don't really know but it seems like an oasis of kindness and benevolence, and find some of that and some nastiness and generally just people behaving like people. Ok, a little worse, as humans tend to be less civil dealing with text on a screen than dealing with someone in person. Somehow this surprises folks. This is actually one of the nicer places I hang out, but I pretty much expect the bad with the good.


I too find this forum one of the nicer ones. If I could figure out a way to filter out the lounge it'd even be better.

Mike

Vaughn
11-Jan-2013, 12:05
What he said.

I see the same thing on other special interest forums. People show up expecting, I don't really know but it seems like an oasis of kindness and benevolence, and find some of that and some nastiness and generally just people behaving like people. Ok, a little worse, as humans tend to be less civil dealing with text on a screen than dealing with someone in person. Somehow this surprises folks. This is actually one of the nicer places I hang out, but I pretty much expect the bad with the good.

And what he said.

And I think we need to take into consideration the fact that many, if not most, are here because we are passionate about our art, our photography and/or our equipment/working processes. And those passions can surface and grate on other passionate people.

And it is incredibly easy to mis-read someone's post...let alone know what their intentions are.

ic-racer
11-Jan-2013, 12:06
bicker and fight for the sake of ?

None of that here. Just read at the posts in this comforting and empathizing thread.

mikebarger
11-Jan-2013, 12:47
I think APUG has a ban on I'm leaving threads, not a bad idea. Things sometimes just get a little out of control on these types of threads. If you're really leaving I doubt anyone is going to change your mind.

Mike

BradS
11-Jan-2013, 13:08
I think APUG has a ban on I'm leaving threads, not a bad idea. Things sometimes just get a little out of control on these types of threads. If you're really leaving I doubt anyone is going to change your mind.

Mike


Actually, I thought this forum (also?) has a "No grand exit" rule.....

as an aside, the irony of many of the responses is...well, really funny.

BradS
11-Jan-2013, 13:17
Ventured on to this forum back in 2008 and returned for a short time in 2012, 2013.. only to discover this forum which was once a good place to share now has become a place of established individuals with an agenda who bicker and fight for the sake of ?

My initial intent to return was with the idea of helping others and sharing the image making process, instead, LFF parts of LFF has become semi hostile for those who many see things differently.


Bernice

Well said...I agree with you. There are a handful of donkey orifices on this site who do little other than argue and bicker. It makes for a very unpleasant experience.

I suggest that you try adding the five or so habitual offenders to your ignore list and have the discipline to not ever look at their remarks. I've done this and the forum is oh so much more enjoyable now.

Roger Cole
11-Jan-2013, 13:24
And what he said.

And I think we need to take into consideration the fact that many, if not most, are here because we are passionate about our art, our photography and/or our equipment/working processes. And those passions can surface and grate on other passionate people.

And it is incredibly easy to mis-read someone's post...let alone know what their intentions are.

Yes it is, which was more or less my point about the word play. It was a quip, maybe thoughtless in this kind of venue but the kind of thing people do all the time.


I think APUG has a ban on I'm leaving threads, not a bad idea. Things sometimes just get a little out of control on these types of threads. If you're really leaving I doubt anyone is going to change your mind.

Mike

I think such a ban is a good idea. Some (and I am not saying that this one is, I really don't know the purpose) seem to be attempts to be talked out of it. Even for posters I really enjoy reading I quit playing that game long ago. Others, if they aren't that, seem to have no real point at all.

Do. Or do not. There is no try. Similarly, stay, or go, as one wills. Freely come, freely go. Life's too short to engage in a no-profit, no-real-art produced place like a web forum if you don't enjoy it or get some benefit out of it. Do as you will and prefer. There are some posters here I'd miss if they stopped contributing, but I'd still just shrug and figure they had better things to do and wish them well.

Eric Rose
11-Jan-2013, 13:38
The usual suspects have risen to the bait and I'm sure this thread will further degenerate into what Bernice has pointed out.

rich815
11-Jan-2013, 13:50
Might as well write off the whole Internet then. This place is indeed one of the better ones IMO and as mentioned above only a small minority who act as you describe.

Leigh
11-Jan-2013, 13:50
And if everyone agreed, if there was no dissension or opposing views...

What a boring world this would be.

You learn nothing from people who agree with you. You already know what they know.

- Leigh

patrickjames
11-Jan-2013, 14:46
Bernice, just make liberal use of the Ignore function. I know I have. I was in your shoes a while back but I stayed. The banning of people is a good step, but I haven't seen too many people who I thought would be banned get banned.

Back to the ignore function- now if we could get a fully implemented ignore function in which the offending people's posts did not even show up, instead of showing up with the message that the person is on the ignore list. It is like not wanting to hear what they are saying but still being annoyed that they are talking.

Anyone want to second that?

That would be wonderful.

bobwysiwyg
11-Jan-2013, 14:50
Bernice, just make liberal use of the Ignore function. I know I have. I was in your shoes a while back but I stayed. The banning of people is a good step, but I haven't seen too many people who I thought would be banned get banned.

Back to the ignore function- now if we could get a fully implemented ignore function in which the offending people's posts did not even show up, instead of showing up with the message that the person is on the ignore list. It is like not wanting to hear what they are saying but still being annoyed that they are talking.

Anyone want to second that?

That would be wonderful.

I second it.

Leigh
11-Jan-2013, 14:52
Anyone want to second that? That would be wonderful.
That would severely confuse a lot of threads, since much of the discussion
includes quotes from the presumably ignored members.

Seeing only a portion of an unwanted post (in a quote) is even worse than seeing the entire post, nicht wahr?

- Leigh

Roger Cole
11-Jan-2013, 15:40
Bernice, just make liberal use of the Ignore function. I know I have. I was in your shoes a while back but I stayed. The banning of people is a good step, but I haven't seen too many people who I thought would be banned get banned.

Back to the ignore function- now if we could get a fully implemented ignore function in which the offending people's posts did not even show up, instead of showing up with the message that the person is on the ignore list. It is like not wanting to hear what they are saying but still being annoyed that they are talking.

Anyone want to second that?

That would be wonderful.


That would severely confuse a lot of threads, since much of the discussion
includes quotes from the presumably ignored members.

Seeing only a portion of an unwanted post (in a quote) is even worse than seeing the entire post, nicht wahr?

- Leigh

There was a way to do this, the FfVb plugin for Firefox. Unfortunately when Mozilla went to version 4.x and up they broke the way it worked and the developer stopped developing it. I stayed with prior versions for well over a year for this reason but finally threw in the towel, at least mostly. I do still have an old version installed (it's a PITA to get two versions of Firefox workably installed on the same machine but it can be done) but you can't actually RUN both versions at once, which means I haven't bothered. I'd like to be able to fire up the old one for forums and the new one for everything else but since I can't do that I just use the new one.

FfVb was great. What Leigh mentions wasn't much of a factor because it not only removed their posts completely it removed material other people quoted from them. They were GONE. Occasionally it looked odd or like someone was talking to themselves but it made some boards, mostly a couple of others I'm on, much nicer places. With the ignore function built into vBulletin I find it all but useless. It leaves a link to click to reveal the post and it's just like the train wreck scenario - you can't resist looking even though you are pretty sure that, if you do, you'll regret it. So you do and, sure enough, you regret it.

Even more lamentable in my view is that this particular version of vBulletin, or at least the implementation here, does not have the "ignore thread" function that I have on other boards.

cosmicexplosion
11-Jan-2013, 17:26
[QUOTE=Roger Cole;976910]Yes it is, which was more or less my point about the word play. It was a quip, maybe thoughtless in this kind of venue but the kind of thing people do all the time.

It's called humor. It's a public forum and every one, being an imperfect human often makes mistakes and or is vulnerable at one point or another

Sounds like to need to put some concrete in your milkshake and toughen the @&$$ up!

For a little comedy relief please visit:

http://http://boardofwisdom.com/togo/?viewid=1005&listname=humor

Vaughn
11-Jan-2013, 17:34
The usual suspects have risen to the bait and I'm sure this thread will further degenerate into what Bernice has pointed out.

I am sorry, but this reminds me so much of the zen story about the three monks who took an oath of silence. One accidently spoke and another said "You broke the oath of silence!", and the third said, "You just did, too!"

Dang...so did I! LOL!

Vaughn

Ken Lee
11-Jan-2013, 17:39
I am sorry, but this reminds me so much of the zen story about the three monks who took an oath of silence. One accidently spoke and another said "You broke the oath of silence!", and the third said, "You just did, too!"

Dang...so did I! LOL!

Vaughn

Count me in :cool:

http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/ZenMonk.jpg

John Koehrer
11-Jan-2013, 18:06
APUG does that and it's not confusing at all. It notes that X is on your ignore list and doesn't include that particular comment.
There are some that continue a discussion because(in their mind) their opinion is too important to ignore. They absolutely have to have the final word.
having a post removed from a thread does it no harm because many of these posts tend to be repetitious(does not, does too) and don't advance a thread.
I always wonder if these folks are the same way face to face.



That would severely confuse a lot of threads, since much of the discussion
includes quotes from the presumably ignored members.

Seeing only a portion of an unwanted post (in a quote) is even worse than seeing the entire post, nicht wahr?

- Leigh

mikebarger
11-Jan-2013, 18:41
When Jay left APUG all of his posts went with him. It really goofed up some threads on 510 Pyro because of the missing posts.

Gary Tarbert
11-Jan-2013, 18:46
I too find this forum one of the nicer ones. If I could figure out a way to filter out the lounge it'd even be better.

MikeYou can theres a selector thingy at the top which says LF forums it bring up only LF forums no for sale ,no lounge introductions etc. Cheers Gary

Roger Cole
11-Jan-2013, 19:27
[QUOTE=Roger Cole;976910]Yes it is, which was more or less my point about the word play. It was a quip, maybe thoughtless in this kind of venue but the kind of thing people do all the time.

It's called humor. It's a public forum and every one, being an imperfect human often makes mistakes and or is vulnerable at one point or another

Sounds like to need to put some concrete in your milkshake and toughen the @&$$ up!

For a little comedy relief please visit:

http://http://boardofwisdom.com/togo/?viewid=1005&listname=humor

You talking to ME? I see it as humor. I said it was "maybe thoughtless" and that's true - see Sal's comments about the OP's first language, which as far as I'm aware we don't. But I certainly wasn't offended, wouldn't have been offended in the least if it had been in response to one of my posts, and recognize it as humorously intended.

I agree with you, at least I think so. Online forums are no place for the excessively thin skinned.

BTW, your link is broken. Here it is corrected:

http://www.boardofwisdom.com/togo/?viewid=1005&listname=humor

Roger Cole
11-Jan-2013, 19:32
You can theres a selector thingy at the top which says LF forums it bring up only LF forums no for sale ,no lounge introductions etc. Cheers Gary

I would never ignore the Lounge, if for no other reason than that "Safe Haven for Tiny Formats" is my favorite image thread on the board. Odd, that, on the large format board, but it's probably because it just collects all kinds of work with anything that's not LF so it's more diverse than any other one thread.

/OT

peter schrager
11-Jan-2013, 19:46
I'm out of here too! I'm going out to photograph....remember that's what we do??
a duh!!
have a great day and take some valium!
Peter

cosmicexplosion
11-Jan-2013, 21:42
[QUOTE=cosmicexplosion;976998]

You talking to ME? I see it as humor. I said it was "maybe thoughtless" and that's true - see Sal's comments about the OP's first language, which as far as I'm aware we don't. But I certainly wasn't offended, wouldn't have been offended in the least if it had been in response to one of my posts, and recognize it as humorously intended.

I agree with you, at least I think so. Online forums are no place for the excessively thin skinned.

BTW, your link is broken. Here it is corrected:

http://www.boardofwisdom.com/togo/?viewid=1005&listname=humor

oh sorry roger
had no sleep last night
and in my daze reading iphone i confused you....thanks for accepting my sorry state, and fixing link...

i liked the first section, and thought it related in a logical sense to this fred!

Gary Tarbert
11-Jan-2013, 22:40
I would never ignore the Lounge, if for no other reason than that "Safe Haven for Tiny Formats" is my favorite image thread on the board. Odd, that, on the large format board, but it's probably because it just collects all kinds of work with anything that's not LF so it's more diverse than any other one thread.

/OTI'm with you go the lounge quite a bit ,my wife reckons too much!! Cheers Gary

jonreid
11-Jan-2013, 22:51
We have been banning troublesome and rude forum members.

In my opinion you banned one of the most interesting members whose work was far more original than that of a lot of other members.

Jon

Curt
11-Jan-2013, 23:21
Count me in :cool:

http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/ZenMonk.jpg

Gee when the page didn't come right up I thought it might have been closed! Anyway, everything in moderation!

When I was young a guy got mad at work and yelled out "I'm so mad I'm going to quit, that'll show you guys". An older man quietly told him "No one is indispensible, they'll get another person tomorrow to replace you and on it goes". That made the guy even madder. Anyway to the original poster. What does pretty much done here mean? Why not give it a break for a while, you've made a point and had a vent, it happens.

RichardSperry
11-Jan-2013, 23:40
In my opinion you banned one of the most interesting members whose work was far more original than that of a lot of other members.

Jon

I agree.

Gary Tarbert
12-Jan-2013, 00:35
I know has he been banned indefinetly? if so i hope not.Cheers Gary

cosmicexplosion
12-Jan-2013, 02:11
Frankfurter fried on the fire of politics.

Ken Lee
12-Jan-2013, 05:04
In my opinion you banned one of the most interesting members whose work was far more original than that of a lot of other members

No matter how interesting they are or how original their work, if members persist in violating forum guidelines they become a nuisance and take up moderator time. They get warned and eventually banned.

Ken Lee
12-Jan-2013, 05:05
Gee when the page didn't come right up I thought it might have been closed! Anyway, everything in moderation!

"Count me in" was a reply to a post which told a humorous story about 3 Zen monks.

gliderbee
12-Jan-2013, 09:05
Ventured on to this forum back in 2008 and returned for a short time in 2012, 2013.. only to discover this forum which was once a good place to share now has become a place of established individuals with an agenda who bicker and fight for the sake of ?

My initial intent to return was with the idea of helping others and sharing the image making process, instead, LFF parts of LFF has become semi hostel for those who many see things differently.


Bernice

There 's a saying in French that translates to : "If all the disgusted leave, there will be only the disgusting left."

Stefan

Jim Jones
12-Jan-2013, 09:15
If I agreed with everything others post here, I'd be learning nothing. If I caught all of the humor, it wouldn't be clever enough to be worth posting. This remains my most informative photographic forum. Please don't sanitize it of its character and characters.

Vaughn
12-Jan-2013, 09:25
There 's a saying in French that translates to : "If all the disgusted leave, there will be only the disgusting left."

Stefan

But that was not the case with the member banned...it was the 'disgusting' that was banned/left.

But this is more the case on this forum:

Si le congé peau fine, seule la peau épaisse sont à gauche.

My apologies to French-speakers!

Peter De Smidt
12-Jan-2013, 10:06
Disagreement does not justify uncivil behavior, nor does banning uncivil behavior discourage disagreement concerning topics apropos to this forum.

David R Munson
12-Jan-2013, 10:27
I really wonder about people finding the LF forum to be a negative enough place that they find the need to leave it. Have they ever really encountered the sort of negativity-run-amok that so characterizes so much of the internet in genreal? Of course, I'd rather we didn't have all the bullshit and petty bickering that we do, but compared to some of the forums I still follow, this place is an incredibly positive oasis of good information and nice people who genuinely want to contribute to productive conversation. It remains the most useful, friendliest forum I've ever followed, and to my mind it hasn't even changed all that much since way back when.

Negativity will dominate our view of things if we let it. I prefer to focus on the good nature of this community and all that it continues to contribute to my journey in photography.

mikebarger
12-Jan-2013, 10:43
Amen!

jb7
12-Jan-2013, 10:58
Originally Posted by gliderbee

There 's a saying in French that translates to : "If all the disgusted leave, there will be only the disgusting left."

Stefan





But that was not the case with the member banned...it was the 'disgusting' that was banned/left.




QED

Vaughn
12-Jan-2013, 11:38
jb7, sorry I am confused...what was demonstrated? Thanks...

Kirk Gittings
12-Jan-2013, 13:17
No matter how interesting they are or how original their work, if members persist in violating forum guidelines they become a nuisance and take up moderator time. They get warned and eventually banned.

In that case, with numerous warnings and two temporary bans before HE decided to leave "permanently". Yet he was back here under an alias a week later. We were not dealing with an adult here and our cutting him slack over the years just encouraged him like any child.

Eric Rose
12-Jan-2013, 15:10
With all due respect Kirk, I get the feeling that it was more a personal thing between you and Frank. Your language when speaking of him clearly illustrates this.

Dan Fromm
12-Jan-2013, 16:24
With all due respect Kirk, I get the feeling that it was more a personal thing between you and Frank. Your language when speaking of him clearly illustrates this.

Eric, I think you are mistaken. I found Frank's political comments completely out of place on this bulletin board, eventually got fed up and started reporting them.

Thread drift is a fact of life but resurrecting old disagreements will get us nowhere. Better to address the points made in the lady's swan song than to reinforce them.

jonreid
12-Jan-2013, 16:24
With all due respect Kirk, I get the feeling that it was more a personal thing between you and Frank. Your language when speaking of him clearly illustrates this.

Agree. Was there consultation between moderators or was it your decision alone Kirk?

Jon

RichardSperry
12-Jan-2013, 16:54
In my experience, bannings such as this one are due to personality conflicts rather than actual violation of any real rules. The moderator just doesn't like the poster.

And considering the overall general lax enforcement of real violations(which I have experienced personally on this board), I will continue to believe that is the case with respect to Frank.

When a person is banned for some thing political they post that a moderator disagrees with, and name-calling trolls are tolerated or ignored, something is wrong with the moderation system or personnel.

I've never read anything posted by Frank which was or is disgusting, as was stated in this thread. I have never read a post of his where he resorted to namecalling, attacking ad hominem, or being a general @sshat troll.

Many boards have a capricious unwritten rule, don't piss off the moderator. I am certain this is the only rule that Frank broke.

Peter De Smidt
12-Jan-2013, 17:39
Frank decided not to follow the rules, and he was banned because he continued to violate them, which, if you can take him at his word, he did on purpose, as he disagreed with the rules. If anything, the moderators gave him more leeway because of his prolific posting of on topic material over the years. I like Frank, and I wish he was still here and abiding by the rules, but saying that the moderators banned him because they didn't like him is ridiculous. Dealing with all of the issues surrounding the banning, which entailed spending a huge amount of time, exasperated Kirk, which is completely understandable.

cosmicexplosion
12-Jan-2013, 17:45
Eric, I think you are mistaken. I found Frank's political comments completely out of place on this bulletin board, eventually got fed up and started reporting them.

Thread drift is a fact of life but resurrecting old disagreements will get us nowhere. Better to address the points made in the lady's swan song than to reinforce them.

So it was you who ratted on frank that helped bring him down.
If that's the case you should commit forum hurry curry.

Or go join the police force working in civil disobedience

Seriously like him or not he was one of the most valuable members of the forum.

I have a beautiful 108 enlarger that I shipped from the states to Australia
Because of a link he made.
Just a link to a Craigslist.

How many people who killed him actually help people out

His posts where humerus
He was an old hat so had all the experience that newbies need
And he gave his time and lots of it.

Can you little beeachez honestly say you do any thing but hide in the shadows
Are the moderators really democratic

And as others have stated besides the forum for all things cute and friendly
It is a very well behaved forum
So as my post in the nude section proved its good to have a bit of controversy; now there is a section for critique.
Maybe what this forum needs is a section for every thing it banns

That way there can never be a problem
And people can fight it out in a virtual cage to the death.

As suggested do we want a forum where the whimpering moodiness of
Shy little mummy's boys run the show
Or do we become full spectrum
And offer art and craft
Hobbyist and professional
Losers and winners
All a place on the sun.

And I agree I have not read any thing by
Martyred one
That was worthy of death.

To tell the truth I would have thought
I was chopping block material.

Oh yeah
And when I joined this forum I was set on by the group mentality
Told to get a holga etc

So if any one wants to read my original post there are I'm sure people more worthy of assassination than said ghost.

That being said my first post was in some way designed to cause a stir
As my general personality is a bit that way.

Maybe that's why I'm an artist
Not to talk about me me me
But
A lot of artists rock the boat naturally

And it's z good thing.

Who wants to live in a repressive world.
So a lot of artist whilst extreme
Help create balance
Between the sheep and the wolves.

Jay DeFehr
12-Jan-2013, 17:48
No matter how interesting they are or how original their work, if members persist in violating forum guidelines they become a nuisance and take up moderator time. They get warned and eventually banned.

A nuisance to whom? The moderators, I presume. I didn't realize this forum existed for he pleasure or convenience of the volunteer moderators, though it seems more obviously so as time passes. Banning members of what can reasonably be described as an endangered species is a defeated strategy, if the goal is to maintain a membership, let alone increase one. It follows logically that the easiest group to moderate is one of former members. I think the moderators here, whatever their intentions, are not well versed in the dynamics of online fora, or the importance of arguing, and are more interested in the maintanence of cliques. The membership here need to decide what kind of forum they want, and before I'm needlessly reminded this is a privately owned site, I should add it needn't be this one. It's clear some members gravitate towards spirited debate and are willing to tolerate some rough behavior, while others, including the moderators would prefer a tea party, without raised voices or references to unsavory topics. I don't think we need less arguing, but better arguing; inclusion instead of exclusion, and moderators who are less strictly aligned with their core group clique. I think the moderation here is a fiasco, and will guarantee the demise of this forum if left unchecked.

Food for thought:


http://www.ted.com/talks/clay_shirky_how_the_internet_will_one_day_transform_government.html

rdenney
12-Jan-2013, 17:52
Agree. Was there consultation between moderators or was it your decision alone Kirk?

Jon

There was much consultation, over a period of years, actually.

No action by one moderator cannot be undone by a consensus of the other moderators. In this case there was no second-guessing.

In the case of the returnee under an alias, Kirk was not involved in that action at all. That was discussed by several of us.

One thing that would benefit everyone is to remember that standards of civility do vary in different parts of the world. When I moved from Texas to Virginia, I found that easterners were much more plainspoken than southerners. In many ways, I found that refreshing--I always have a better notion of where I stand. But in some ways, it seems less polite, at least by southern standards. And those differences are quite small compared to, say, differences between Americans and Australians (I have always found Australians to be the most plainspoken of English speakers, but not always in ways other English speakers "get"), or English speakers and non-English speakers. Or between art types and engineer types, for that matter.

For this reason, it has always served me well to bring my thick skin to conversations on the Internet. After some reflection, I often realize that what sounded to me as a personal insult was really just someone speaking their mind in plain language.

From the moderator perspective, we usually wait for complaints. If someone's plain speech causes offense, we hear about it, and then go take a look for ourselves. Occasionally, we are already in the middle of the discussion and see it first, but usually we err on the side of inaction. That has actually allowed some people to believe that personal attacks and rudeness are allowed, when they are not. We do our best.

Careful writing does not imply careful reading. In this thread, one person stated to the OP that she should not let a few bad actors ruin her experience here, but his wording was interpreted by some as applying to the OP. That was not the case, it seemed to me, but when the fur is flying people rush through all the responses and sometime miss subtle cues.

So, the advice to spread the Valium around seems to me appropriate. I hope that Bernice does not leave, and have found her posts to be interesting and informative. I hope she will realize that some folks here are just crusty old farts that mean well even if they rub people raw. But it would be better if those crusty old farts would try to transcend their crust a bit and listen to themselves with other people's ears.

Rick "much ado about nothing, or is that much adieu about nothing" Denney

rdenney
12-Jan-2013, 17:58
A nuisance to whom? The moderators, I presume. I didn't realize this forum existed for he pleasure or convenience of the volunteer moderators, though it seems more obviously so as time passes. Banning members of what can reasonably be described as an endangered species is a defeated strategy, if the goal is to maintain a membership, let alone increase one

There is no doubt that those who have been banned caused more departures than arrivals, taken on the whole. And very, very few have been banned in any case (except for spammers). What drives people away is contentiousness for the sake of contentiousness, not for the sake of understanding and sharing.

No, the forum does not exist for the convenience of the moderators. The moderators routinely make decisions that let conversation and even debate go on despite that it is inconvenient to do so.

Rick "but there is a line, and everyone knows where it is" Denney

rdenney
12-Jan-2013, 18:07
So it was you who ratted on frank that helped bring him down.
If that's the case you should commit forum hurry curry.

Or go join the police force working in civil disobedience

Seriously like him or not he was one of the most valuable members of the forum.

This was as far as I got--sorry.

People build up a good-will account on a forum. The greater the balance in that account, the more it takes for them to become overdrawn. Some people make big deposits, but they also make big withdrawals.

Even so, those who go into the red usually just need to ask for a loan to get it. But sometimes they make it everyone else's fault that they made too many withdrawals.

Being liked and being a valuable contributor is enough to postpone action (and action in some cases had been discussed for years), but there is a line.

Rick "who misses him, too" Denney

RichardSperry
12-Jan-2013, 18:39
Thank you for the post and link, Jay.

jnanian
12-Jan-2013, 18:45
I too find this forum one of the nicer ones. If I could figure out a way to filter out the lounge it'd even be better.

Mike

mike -

just click on unified view
"Type: Posts; Excluded Forums: New Products, The Lounge, For Sale/Wanted; Posts From Last 30 Days"

john

Jay DeFehr
12-Jan-2013, 18:46
There is no doubt that those who have been banned caused more departures than arrivals, taken on the whole.

No doubt for whom? How are such accountings made? I think you've neglected to consider, among other things, why members stay, and why they participate, or not. What there can be no doubt of, is that contentious threads attract the most participation, and that should tell you more about the values of the membership than the complaints of a few vocal whiners.

RichardSperry
12-Jan-2013, 18:50
There is no doubt that those who have been banned caused more departures than arrivals

I doubt it. So there is doubt.

There were about four or five photographers, who are members or posters here, I had heard of before coming here. Frank was one of them.


Being liked and being a valuable contributor is enough to postpone action (and action in some cases had been discussed for years), but there is a line

All this statement does, is reinforce the notion that Kirk has held a personal or political grudge against Frank for years. And it came to head in some deleted or private email conversation between the two.

Kirk Gittings
12-Jan-2013, 19:00
Absolute unadulterated nonsense. A complete lie Richard. I could have banned Frank years ago. I had more than enough to do it ten times over. Instead I kept giving him warnings, or looking the other way, but he was hell bent on getting banned. Why? I liked Frank and thought his contributions were worthwhile and that he would come around and follow the rules eventually. And.....I didn't give him the temp bans alone-it was a collective decision as it always is.

Frank chose his fate, forced the issue and we just finally obliged him. If you believe anything else you are totally kidding yourself.

The only private conversation I remember ever having with Frank was when he asked me to do a testimonial for Praus Lab (he managed their website), which I was happy to do but it never happened. You must be conveniently forgetting all those dozens and dozens of political posts he continued to make over the last few years after we outlawed politics. That was the problem plain and simple-no hidden agendas (except Franks to subvert the rules).

RichardSperry
12-Jan-2013, 19:29
Are you calling me a liar, Kirk?

Please, attempt to quote anything I wrote that is untrue.

Your postings on this subject, and tone of them, do not convince me that this is anything other than personal. A moderator who resorts to name calling himself is not my idea of a moderate moderator.

Kirk Gittings
12-Jan-2013, 19:30
All this statement does, is reinforce the notion that Kirk has held a personal or political grudge against Frank for years. And it came to head in some deleted or private email conversation between the two.

Show me any proof of any of this? Complete nonsense. Never happened. You made it up.

RichardSperry
12-Jan-2013, 19:46
Kirk,

87238

That is my notion. I hold it. It is true that I hold that notion. And your posts, and rdenney's, are truly reinforcing that notion.

I will expand it to include others, as well. I believe that there are others here who hold that notion. I don't know who those people are, but I believe they exist.

A good moderator knows the difference between a conditional statement and a statement of fact. Here is an example of a conditional statement: If you can't tell the difference between a statement of opinion from a statement of fact, maybe you are not the right person to be deciding who stays and who goes.

Kirk Gittings
12-Jan-2013, 19:52
That's a complete semantic cop out.

Kodachrome25
12-Jan-2013, 19:55
I generally come to any forum for information, to find it and if I feel it is worth my time, to share it. Otherwise I just can not engage in any kind of meaningful conversation on an Internet forum. A lot of that has to do with the nature of forums, the delay, the not being face to face. But the other problem and perhaps the larger one for me on this forum in particular is that some people like to use some abstract creativity to engage in spirited discourse. I find that if I am entertained by a little fun loving color in the way people are talking to one another, then I am talking to a real person and seeing part of their creative side. So with the rules being the way they are and the warnings I have gotten over posts of mine that use this kind of color, it's like.....the most boring 1950's forced polite dialogue I have eve heard, seriously.

I am not leaving but if I make one more mistake on here, I will be banned for sure so since I value the information more than anything, I have no interest in trying to engage in utterly boringly polite and useless Internet discourse.

No one needs the Internet, just the information you can get on it. It's not the end of the world if my style of being blunt, creatively calling a spade a spade is not welcome here, so I am just going to consider my self banned and be strictly business from here on out.

I can live with that, there is valuable info here, I really don't need to contribute to egos by getting warned or banned.

RichardSperry
12-Jan-2013, 20:13
That's a complete semantic cop out.

No, not at all. I chose my words purposefully and carefully.

You are not the first 'moderator' who I have encountered, who acts like you are acting.



Additionally, you have violated this rule


Maintaining Forum Decorum. To have a healthy and informative forum, it's essential that participants maintain a respectful and professional decorum. Name calling, personal attacks, character assassination, coarse or inappropriate language, or enticing/baiting others to violate forum guidelines will not be tolerated here. Generally speaking, in responding to a posting, try to respond only to the content of the thread and not to the individual.

at least twice in this thread, alone. (I wonder what would happen if I alert your name calling posts...)

While I have not violated any of the rules. Other than the unwritten, "don't piss off the mods rule", which is apparent I have.

Kirk Gittings
12-Jan-2013, 20:17
All this statement does, is reinforce the notion that Kirk has held a personal or political grudge against Frank for years. And it came to head in some deleted or private email conversation between the two.

Really? Its called baiting. And I guess I fell for it. Since you are obviously not going to make an attempt to defend your silly accusations (impossible since they are completely made up) and instead play word games to avoid taking responsibility, I'm not going to participate in your baiting anymore......night.

RichardSperry
12-Jan-2013, 20:20
Kirk,

Do us a favor, eliminate the games.

Just post the post that got Frank banned.

Really!

Ian David
12-Jan-2013, 20:25
What there can be no doubt of, is that contentious threads attract the most participation, and that should tell you more about the values of the membership than the complaints of a few vocal whiners.

On a forum like this, most people are attracted to contentious threads for the same sort of reason that they slow down to look at car crashes. That know that they are likely to see unpleasant stuff but just can't help looking.
Also, there are a handful of people here who I suspect have limited social outlets, so they want this place to be a one-stop-shop where they can discuss everything that pops into their heads.
As in the general population, there are probably also a couple of people with some kind of unfortunate mental twitch that causes them to see conspiracies and persecution where there are none.
And no doubt a couple of people who are just incurable assholes.

If you look at most of the threads that go off the rails for one reason or another, the bulk of the participants seem to be the same small cast of rubberneckers, time-wasters and contrarians.
The vast bulk of the active forum membership appear not to be interested in commenting. I suspect they just want to talk about photography...

Kirk Gittings
12-Jan-2013, 20:38
Ok Richard, I will play your stupid game once more. In a thread about Kodak printers, for his third or fourth political post in a week or so he said "We just re-elected the Antonio Perez of politics in spite of his four years of prior failure. But it's a big country to dismantle, I think the ten day window will be OK." I gave him a weeks or maybe 10 days ban after talking to the other moderators. THIS was following a temporary ban of a couple of days given him a few months before (and warned a permanent ban was coming) AND following a few additional official warnings before that. Night.

BrianShaw
12-Jan-2013, 20:42
INCREDIBLE... ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE. All thread drift seems to drift to Frank. Can't we let the dearly departed rest in peace?

Kirk Gittings
12-Jan-2013, 20:46
I agree and I apologize for my part. It gets my goat to be accused of such nonsense.

rdenney
12-Jan-2013, 20:48
Kirk,

Do us a favor, eliminate the games.

Just post the post that got Frank banned.

Really!

Richard, maybe you won't believe this given that it has already been said many times, but there was no one post. There were dozens. And bringing it up here and now is also a game. He's not coming back. So, what is your motive?

It might be possible to destroy this forum because one popular (with some) person got banned. Is that what you want?

Or, we could run off Kirk, who has tried to be transparent about the issues that led to it, though doing so has made him a target for those who don't get the complaint emails and messages.

Perhaps all this regurgitation could cause the Lounge to be eliminated, so that any discussion off the topic of large-format photography would be prohibited (not just the politics that Frank could not resist). Believe me, that is a very real possibility. Please remember that this is a privately owned forum.

It is nonsensical that this is making the forum better. Please stop. This is the sort of thing that sours the forum more than anything, and vastly more than the very rare controversial moderator action.

Rick "please" Denney

Peter Lewin
12-Jan-2013, 20:51
INCREDIBLE... ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE. All thread drift seems to drift to Frank. Can't we let the dearly departed rest in peace?

+1! Can't we institute a rule that any new thread that brings up the banning of FP, or continues to snipe at the moderators, will be immediately closed?

Ian David, two posts up, suggests that many forum members stay out of these threads. He is absolutely correct. I didn't want to add more to this totally incomprehensible thread (it was never even clear why the OP had to say goodbye, or what the cause of the problem was), but I feel I have to get involved when it becomes another "anti moderator" thread. To those of us who find this forum valuable and enjoyable, having a few people constantly heap crap on the moderators threatens our enjoyment of the forum. And if the moderators act like rational humans and quit when they get tired of the four or five posters who feel a need to kick them, we all lose.

jb7
12-Jan-2013, 21:04
jb7, sorry I am confused...what was demonstrated? Thanks...

I suppose I mean that disgusting and disgusted can not each exist without the other.

By using a little Verbing, the Disgusting are left behind.



Nice poem cosmicexplosion-

emh
12-Jan-2013, 21:10
I don't post often, but do visit regularly. When I'm in search of specific LF info, I find this place very informative. When I'm just passing through, I usually find it entertaining.
When I visit a site owned by others, I try to act as I would in their home. If they want me to use a coaster, I use a coaster... If I'm asked to take off my shoes, I take off my shoes... This place should be no different.
Frankly, I think the moderators have spent more time explaining their actions than necessary. I think it's a testament to the respect they have for members that they even bother with sharing their justifications.

Curt
12-Jan-2013, 21:29
"Count me in" was a reply to a post which told a humorous story about 3 Zen monks.

Ken, I went to press "like" but realized I wasn't on Facebook!
I kept a copy of a quote that's, as the British say, brilliant.


"In Fine Art photography, the photograph itself is the subject, and the book should be the transparent glass through which we gaze, not at the subjects, but at the photographs."

As I digress some....

cosmicexplosion
12-Jan-2013, 22:10
I suppose I mean that disgusting and disgusted can not each exist without the other.

By using a little Verbing, the Disgusting are left behind.



Nice poem cosmicexplosion-

Ha ha
I love it that people think I write poems !'

welly
13-Jan-2013, 00:59
87239

Beating a dead horse? We're beating a dead Frank. Can we let the poor guy RIP?

This post is in all but name the same as we've had over, and over, and over, and over for the past X months.

There is 0.001% of negative commentary on this forum, the rest of it is incredibly useful, informative, inspiring and emotional (I refer to the beautiful images people share).

Someone mentioned banning "I'm leaving posts" - please add my vote for this to the count. Please, we're up to 9 pages. Can we please lock this as everything that (doesn't) need to be said has been said (again).

patrickjames
13-Jan-2013, 02:35
I stand behind the moderators 100% and I see absolutely no reason anyone should be attacking Kirk. Being a moderator is a thankless job. Maybe one of the rules should be- attack a moderator for moderating, get banned. I am frankly sick of all the bitching here about the moderators. It is the same people doing it over and over again too. If you don't like it, take a hike.

To the person above who thinks that banning members weakens a forum, it does not. Banning troublemakers and those who insult others opens the forum up to a freer exchange of ideas. I have said this before here. I delete a good 80% of my posts before they make it to the forum because it just isn't worth the grief. Who loses? Not me. I already know it. I guarantee that there are a lot of others just like me.

Dump the bad apples and the bushel is oh so sweeter.

Jay DeFehr
13-Jan-2013, 03:23
Banning troublemakers and those who insult others opens the forum up to a freer exchange of ideas.

Yes, censorship under threat of banishment always leads to a freer exchange of ideas:rolleyes:

jnanian
13-Jan-2013, 06:27
after about 12 years of coming here threads like this are becoming more and more of a real drag.

Ken Lee
13-Jan-2013, 07:07
This thread is closed. We now return to friendly and informative discussions of Large Format Photography.


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