How do you agitate your film in tray developing?

[calamari]

Hello,

What I thought would be a simple enough task turned out to be rather a pain. Its my first time tray developing, but I've done 4x5 daylight tank (JOBO) developing without any problems.

So this is the film that came out...

85389

The background was supposed to be pure or close to white, and its got these weird ghostly artifacts around the shoulders. Upon closer inspection of the negative, there is a yellow spot / stain that may be from a fixer problem??

The film is HP5+, developed in F76+, 7 minutes, 3 minutes in fixer. I agitated by rocking the corner of the tray up and down, constantly for 7 minutes. I was very gentle with the rocking because the developer would splash and spill. The tray i was using is a 5x7 tray, I wonder if a bigger tray and more developer would help? Or should I try a new agitation method?

As for the condition of the developer I cannot say how old it is, because I am using a school lab, but I haven't had this problem with my 35 or 120 rolls in the past.

Edit// Also to note, I only developed one sheet at a time in one tray thinking that it would avoid problems like this.

Thanks in advance.

[David R Munson]

Usually for me it's a stack of sheets. Pull one from the bottom, put it on top of the stack, repeat.

[Bill Burk]

If you always lifted the same corner, you may have set up eddy currents that contributed to uneven development.

I believe Todd-Zakia, that 12 rocks a minute is optimum.

And I would lift different sides or corners of the tray every time (8 different ways to lift). Try to get a random flow of developer.

[BetterSense]

Tray development is the technique I use to get perfectly even negatives.

As-such, I do not agitate the negatives at all. I gently shuffle sheets from the bottom to the top of the stack. I rotate the stack 90 degrees every couple minutes. This is all out of Ansel's book.

It's also important to use a big tray and plenty of developer. I use an 8x10 tray and 1 liter of developer for 4x5.

[Doremus Scudder]

I'm not a big fan of tray rocking for agitation. First, it means that you can only develop one sheet at a time. Second, it's easy to not agitate sufficiently when using tray rocking and end up with uneven development, like you have.

I use staining developers, mostly PMK, which need careful agitation to achieve even development. I have refined my agitation so that I have very even development all the time. I have a routine that works from one to eight sheets in a batch, although my preferred number is six.

Here's what I do (sorry for the long, detailed explanation, but I just can't seem to shorten it much more):

I use deep (Paterson) 5x7 trays for 4x5 film. I use a minimum of 500ml solution in each tray. I agitate by shuffling along the short axis of the film, pulling a sheet from bottom and returning it to the top of the stack (more below). I process film emulsion-side up; although others have success emulsion-side down, I get uneven development that way.

First, I believe a pre-soak is necessary to promote even development and to keep sheets from sticking together when developing more than one at a time. I unload my holders, making sure that the bottom sheet is turned 180° to all the rest so the code notches are on the opposite end, making this sheet, my number one sheet, easy to identify. I fan the stack carefully in my hands like a hand of cards and, starting with the bottom sheet (number one) I submerge them gently, emulsion side up, in the water bath and lift a corner of the sheet up and down for a while. I leave 10-15 seconds before submerging the next one to keep the sheets from sticking together (if sheets do stick together, let them soak and work them gently apart - it's only the pre-soak, you've got plenty of time). I agitate the film (more below) by shuffling for a minimum of three minutes to make sure the emulsion is saturated. I finish agitating with sheet number one on the bottom of the stack (you can feel the code notches).

I then lift the entire stack from the water bath being careful to keep all the sheets together and drain. I fan the stack again so that sheet one is on the bottom right (I'm right-handed and work from left-to-right when processing). I start the developing clock and begin submerging the sheets into the developer. I submerge one at a time, starting with sheet number one, in even intervals over 30 seconds (more later) with a bit of lifting the corner of the sheet before the next one is added. After all sheets are added, I continue shuffling in the same interval by taking a sheet from the bottom and replacing it on the top of the stack. I go through the stack once every 30 seconds. Now for the important part...

Agitation technique - valid for all steps:
When shuffling, gently pull a sheet from the bottom of the stack; slide it out horizontally; don't lift it and drag it against the other sheets on top of it. Lift the sheet completely out of the solution, turn it 180° and then lay it gently onto the surface of the liquid, making sure it lands flat. Keep the stack lined up with one hand and guide the top sheet gently down on to the stack. Don't push the sheet down quickly, let it gently float down; pushing too fast will give you surge marks of extra density along the edges of the negative where the developer swirls.

In the developer, the agitation rate is critical; less so for the other steps. I immerse the stack in equal intervals over 30 seconds and then shuffle through the stack once every 30 seconds after that till development is complete. That means that the interval between shuffles (and immersion) will vary depending on the number of sheets developed in a batch. For two sheets, the interval is 15 seconds. For three sheets, shuffle every 10 seconds, for four sheets every 7.5 seconds (I usually alternate 7 and 8 seconds for four sheets), for 5 sheets, every six seconds, for six sheets, every 5 seconds. When developing just one sheet, I lift it, turn it and re-immerse it once every 15 seconds.

It's not really that important that you are exact; more important is that you average once through the stack every 30 seconds. If I get behind, I'll speed up the shuffling for the next 30 seconds to catch up. I keep track of sheet one by feeling the code notches every now and then and make sure it starts the shuffling cycle. As I approach the end of developing, I speed up my agitation so that I can end with sheet one on the bottom of the stack with 15 seconds left on the clock. At this point I lift the stack, drain, fan it as before and, when the developing time is up, immerse the sheets, starting with sheet one, one at a time into the stop over 30 seconds, again using the same interval as I did developing. This makes sure all sheets get the same developing time.

Shuffling interval is now less critical. I shuffle twice through the stack in the stop, for about a minute and then transfer entire stack, after draining, into the fix and shuffle comfortably for the fixing time. I'll often stop shuffling halfway through the fix and turn on the white light, then resume shuffling. When done fixing, rinse, and continue on to the wash sequence.

Some notes: If you use a staining developer like I do, do wear nitrile gloves to protect yourself. When using other developers, I'll often use my bare hands, but many have developed skin allergies to Metol, so I'll be PC and recommend gloves whenever you have your hands in the developer. One advantage of tray developing is that you can develop films for different times in one batch. Just have more than one pre-soak tray and add films to the developer at the appropriate times.

Shuffling effectively without scratching film takes some practice and skill. Practice with a few scrap sheets with the lights on, then with your eyes closed till you become proficient. Don't develop big batches to begin with; I recommend starting with two or three sheets till you get the feel of it. If something goes wrong when developing, don't panic; it's less important that you keep the shuffling regime than not scratching a neg. Take the time you need to get everything straightened out and then resume shuffling. If sheet one is no longer identifiable, no matter; it will only be a small error in developing time.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

[Colleen K]

I've had similar problems this past year (some of which I eventually linked to my developer, but thats another story) and have tried several different development methods trying to solve it. I ended up with a slosher tray, I pre-soak the film, agitate it continuously for the first minute of development, then for 15 seconds every two minutes after that(my development time runs around 10 minutes). Developing one sheet at a time is probably like a mini slosher-hope this helps.
WHen I tray develop 8x10 I agitate it lifting tray corners, so I think you're fine that way.

[mike rosenlof]

I'll use a tray if I have a single sheet of film to develop. Like the OP, I use small lifts of a corner to rock it. Iwatch the timer and rotate the tray every thirty seconds or so (rotate 90 degrees), that way the little waves move across the film differently.

You want to get plenty of solution moving across the front *and back* of your film. Some films have the anti-halation layer on the back of the support material and that layer is removed in different steps depending on the film type.

[welly]

I'll use a tray if I have a single sheet of film to develop. Like the OP, I use small lifts of a corner to rock it. Iwatch the timer and rotate the tray every thirty seconds or so (rotate 90 degrees), that way the little waves move across the film differently.

You want to get plenty of solution moving across the front *and back* of your film. Some films have the anti-halation layer on the back of the support material and that layer is removed in different steps depending on the film type.

Schoolboy question here. You say you watch the timer - what timer are you using that you're able to watch it in the dark?

[Gem Singer]

Hi Welly,

I watch the luminous dial on my GraLab 300 timer. Sometimes the luminous dial of my wrist watch.

How do you time time development in total darkness?

[Heroique]

...Shuffling effectively without scratching film takes some practice and skill. Practice with a few scrap sheets with the lights on, then with your eyes closed till you become proficient.

I think “shuffling practice” is the most forgotten type of practice in film photography – at least among tray users.

Beginners who use scrap sheets in the light to learn how to load holders, can use the same sheets to learn how to shuffle through stacks.

That’s a lot of mileage from just a few sacrificed sheets...

[welly]

Hi Welly,

I watch the luminous dial on my GraLab 300 timer. Sometimes the luminous dial of my wrist watch.

How do you time time development in total darkness?

I've got a Paterson Triple Timer (http://www.patersonphotographic.com/patersondarkroom-details2.htm#triple-timer) - its a non-back lit LED timer and I just roughly guess the agitation intervals. It's not a perfect solution for tray development but I might have to try my luminous wrist watch. I was just concerned about any light/brightness fogging the film.

[Ken Lee]

You might find this interesting: Plastic Storage Containers for Sheet Film Development (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/tech/devtray.php)

In a similar vein, to save money (and water) and make things simple, consider a Dish Rack Film Washer (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/tech/dishrack.php)

[Leigh]

I usually develop six sheets at a time (emulsion down as per St. Ansel), 4x5 in an 8x10 tray
and 8x10 in an 11x14 tray, both deep with a large quantity of developer.

My trays are the dimple-bottom style by Cescolite, which are ideal for this purpose.

I always use Diafine for tray development for many reasons, not the least of which is
that it does not care about temperature, so no heroic temperature control required.

Diafine is a two-part developer. You cannot use a pre-soak with it.
The instructions forbid it, as it kills the mechanical operation of the developer.

Diafine is a compensating developer, so it wants minimal agitation. I shuffle
through the stack once in rather rapid order, then let the stack sit for the remainder
of a 60-second interval. Total time is 5 minutes in each solution, but it's not critical.

Then to a water stop, fix, etc.
Using PermaWash between two washes yields total wash times of a couple of minutes.

- Leigh

[Andrew O'Neill]

Calamari,

5x7 tray should be fine for 4x5. When I develop in a tray I use a tray that is one size bigger than the film. I prefer flat-bottomed trays. Vigorous agitation is the ticket. By vigorous I mean, when you pick up one side of the tray, you should hear the film "clack" against the other side. Grab the sides, not the corners.
There is nothing wrong with developing one sheet at a time. I prefer it this way. Just takes longer, but I'm in no hurry.

[Jim Jones]

Schoolboy question here. You say you watch the timer - what timer are you using that you're able to watch it in the dark?

I use cheap kitchen timers. The kitchenware section of a large store has lots of darkroom accessories, although not labled as such.

[welly]

I use cheap kitchen timers. The kitchenware section of a large store has lots of darkroom accessories, although not labled as such.

And luminous displays don't have any impact on developing? Well, that's useful to know.

[Leigh]

You say you watch the timer - what timer are you using that you're able to watch it in the dark?
I use a Gralab 900 timer. It beeps every 30 seconds, and continuously during the last 10 seconds.

It has a multi-digit red LED display that can be turned off completely for film development.

It's a multi-step programmable, so you set up the entire processing sequence as a series of periods, and
it automatically advances from one to the next.

You start it with a footswitch, and don't touch it again. The programmed sequence ends after the first wash.

- Leigh

[welly]

I use a Gralab 900 timer. It beeps every 30 seconds, and continuously during the last 10 seconds.

It's a multi-step programmable, so you set up the entire processing sequence as a series of intervals, and it
automatically advances from one to the next.

It has a multi-digit red LED display that can be turned off completely for film development.

- Leigh

Awesome, that's exactly what I would like. I'm going to find one. Thanks for the tip!

[mike rosenlof]

I've got little bits of glow in the dark tape and luminous displays all over my darkroom. It's never seemed to be a problem. I don't own a densitometer. I guess it's possible there is a tiny tiny increase of film base plus fog, but not that I'm aware of.

The Gra-lab 300 that was mentioned is an old standard for darkroom, that is the timer I stare at when developing LF.

Back to the original topic, Just conincidentally, I did a single 8x10 sheet in a tray this evening. Rock one side up and down - the side closest to me. Rotated the tray 90 degrees every 30 sec, came out fine. Still wet, so not examined closely yet. HP5+ HC-110 1:50 9 min at 20 deg C.

[Bill Burk]

My Kodak timer, a wind-up clock, ticks four times a second and has no glowing parts... I use it to time shuffles (12 a minute).

My CompnTemp chimes at the start, on the minute, and five times at the end. The computer screen is behind an Amberlith sheet, and I keep a flap of cardboard over it when developing film...

I use an IR viewer, but I don't have to, all my work can be done in the dark.

---

There's been a lot of discussion about the luminous dials. In my mind I sum up the discussion as: Yes it can affect film, keep it several feet away. No, there is not much incidence of fogged film from luminous dials. Most everybody is aware of the light and tries to keep it from being too close to the film for too long. That's why there's not much to worry about.

[Maris Rusis]

Here's an agitation technique I posted elsewhere some time ago. It's still my standard method.

I use a Rubbermaid washing up tray for sheet film development. It's a fraction over 8x10 size, sculpted bottom, rounded corners, and six inches (no splash, no spill) deep.

Agitation is a slippery ill-defined variable so I decided on continuous agitation for all films. It also gives me something to do because some of those dark minutes and hours can seem to drag. The agitation sequence goes like this:

Slide the film quickly into the developer face up.

Lift the front edge of the tray until a wave of developer travels to the back. Lower the front edge and wait for the wave to return to the front. You can feel the wave because the tray sends the changing force to your finger tips.

Now do the same with the right edge of the tray, then the back edge, then the left edge, then return to the front. Keep going until the development time is up. If you are really fussy turn the tray through 180 degrees half way through development.

This system gives me perfect, even, scratch-free results for all films. The down-side is a one-sheet-at a-time system means time, tedium, and labour. But I don't care. Large format photography is playing for high stakes and I'm not going to carry a 4x5 or 8x10 all day and then botch film development because I was in a hurry to finish early.

[C. D. Keth]

When I was doing it one by one in trays, I would gently lift a short side, then a long side, then the close right corner, then the close left corner.

[Doremus Scudder]

I am frankly surprised that so many develop one-sheet-at-a-time. I'd be spending way too much time in the darkroom if I did that. I find working my way through the usual 100+ negatives from a 2-3 week photo safari laborious enough doing them in batches of 6-8... You guys are more patient than I am by a long shot!

I can go out for a day's photographing, come back with 4-6 negatives (my usual per day when working well) and process them the same evening or the next day in less than a couple hours time. If I had to do six complete developing cycles... I'd be spending way too much time.

Best,

Doremus

[Gary Tarbert]

Hi , I see many are stacking and that would suit me as i am the same as doremus and would come back with 6 or so on a good day ,Currently i use a day tank for my 5x4 ,and am looking at either tubes or trays for my larger stuff , how do you stop sheets from sticking together when they are stacked ?? The reason i ask this question is i had two sheets come loose in my tank once and sort of joined and the result was no development at all on the areas that touched but only on one sheet of course because one was only the back , Maybe i need too grab Ansels book . Regards Gary

[Bill Burk]

Many people recommend a first tray of water. I go right to developer, one sheet at a time. Some sheets inevitably will stick together, but I am diligent on the first pass to make sure each sheet is separated. Once you have gone through one or two passes, there is no more danger of sticking together.

[Leigh]

how do you stop sheets from sticking together when they are stacked ??
Hi Gary,

Put one sheet in, pushing it down toward the bottom of the tray, then put the next one in.

I prefer to slide the sheets into the developer at a slight angle, to prevent air bubbles from being trapped.

- Leigh

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

What does everyone think about tubes/drums, I'm just getting started and I saw someone using Color Beseler 8x10 tube and he processed 4 4x5 negatives all at once. It had a motorized base.
Advantages were, lights were on, constant agitation, 10 ounces of developer, stop, fix, rinse... all in the tube. Results were perfect.
Seems like the way to go.
What are the downside to this technique?
Bill

[welly]

I've decided I'm going to try my hand at building an Arduino (http://www.arduino.cc/) compensating timer. If I succeed, I'll put the code and plans up on this forum. I can't see it being too difficult but we shall see!

[welly]

What does everyone think about tubes/drums, I'm just getting started and I saw someone using Color Beseler 8x10 tube and he processed 4 4x5 negatives all at once. It had a motorized base.
Advantages were, lights were on, constant agitation, 10 ounces of developer, stop, fix, rinse... all in the tube. Results were perfect.
Seems like the way to go.
What are the downside to this technique?
Bill

Not sure what the downside is yet but my first go at developing with the BTZS tubes late last week was a futzing great experience. Hardly any chemicals used, lights on (mostly) - it was painless. Had very clean negatives with no scratches. I shall be using them again this evening for a few more sheets. But so far, so good.

[Peter Lewin]

Welly, Bill: Could you mention what developers you are using? I think that, for example, if you are using staining developers, the method might be more critical. For example, with PMK you might get too much aerial oxidation from the speed of a motor rotator, and with BTZS tubes, I don't know if you would have enough of the very dilute developer in each tube to avoid exhaustion. For me, these are theoretical questions for which I don't have experience, since while I use PMK, I tray develop. I am always interested in other options, since while I rarely scratch a negative, I always wonder about trying another approach which never scratches a negative.

[welly]

Welly, Bill: Could you mention what developers you are using? I think that, for example, if you are using staining developers, the method might be more critical. For example, with PMK you might get too much aerial oxidation from the speed of a motor rotator, and with BTZS tubes, I don't know if you would have enough of the very dilute developer in each tube to avoid exhaustion. For me, these are theoretical questions for which I don't have experience, since while I use PMK, I tray develop. I am always interested in other options, since while I rarely scratch a negative, I always wonder about trying another approach which never scratches a negative.

I've just used D-76 with the tubes, and I've only run 4 sheets through that system so far, but 4 out of 4 clean sheets is a 100% record so far! :) I plan to try Rodinal with the tubes too but I'm beginning to settle on D-76 being my developer of choice.

[Scott Walker]

A while back I changed from shuffling a stack to single sheet per tray due to occasional uneven development with 8x10 film.
And here is what I do;
I develop 4 sheets of 8x10 at a time and start with an 11x14 tray 1/2 full of water for presoak for 5 minutes, then the film goes into 4 individual 8x10 trays of developer emulsion side up, agitate for the first 30 seconds by alternating rocking from the side and then the end of the trays, after that, agitate the same way for 10 seconds every minute (agitation pattern is for FP4 in D76 1:1), once development time expires I put the film into an 11x14 tray of stop and then an 11x14 tray of fix. I have had absolutely no development issues since I changed to this method. I can develop different kinds of film or film requiring N+, N-, or N development in the same batch as well which I could never do shuffling.

I set it up just like this.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg90/Beecool/IMG_3073.jpg

[Dean Taylor]

"I go through the stack once every 30 seconds."

If you 'shuffle' (i.e., agitate) a 6-count stack of negatives once every thirty seconds, that is a 5-second 'agitation' per sheet. Fine. But if you have, say, a 3-sheet stack, going through the stack once in thirty seconds means a ten-second 'agitation' per sheet. A novice (like me) might ask why would you not maintain the 5-second per sheet agitation for this smaller stack as well?


Dean

[Peter Lewin]

"If you 'shuffle' (i.e., agitate) a 6-count stack of negatives once every thirty seconds, that is a 5-second 'agitation' per sheet. Fine. But if you have, say, a 3-sheet stack, going through the stack once in thirty seconds means a ten-second 'agitation' per sheet. A novice (like me) might ask why would you not maintain the 5-second per sheet agitation for this smaller stack as well?

Agitation effects the density of the negatives. If you want consistent results, regardless of the number of negatives you are developing at a time, you need to keep the agitation for each sheet the same, batch to batch. By varying the speed with which you "shuffle" you keep the agitation per sheet the same. With the 6-sheet stack, moving one sheet every 5 seconds means that each individual sheet moves once every 30 seconds. In the 3-sheet stack, moving one sheet every 10 seconds means that each individual sheet moves once every 30 seconds.

[ckpj99]

I use these weird little 4x6 trays for development. I had the same results as the OP the first time to due to inadequate agitation. The next time, I developed two sheets in one tray. Note that it is a little tight, but there's plenty of room to grab the bottom sheet and move it to the top, which is what I did every once in a while. I rocked the tray in all directions all the time in between shuffles.

I was using Ilfolsol 3 which required a dev time of close to 10 minutes. I have an old school glow in the dark timer, Graflab or whatever. It's about 10x10 inches square, and you just grab the minute hand and move it to the desired time. I just turn the timer toward the wall and check it by feel. It makes a click when it stops.

All Kodak and Ilford films recommend CONSTANT agitation when tray developing. So there's really no need to keep track of the time, you just need to know when to stop. I know that most of the advanced practitioners here do not agitate their film constantly for fear of too much contrast or development. I didn't notice any problems in this department.

[Bill, 70's military B&W]

Peter,
I'm a newbie and just setting up everything. I have Xtol and am using HP5+. I have accumulated different brands and sizes of tubes/drums, I also have a couple of different motorized bases. It just seems logical to use constant agitation and the advantages of lights on, small amt of chemicals, easy, less messy... Those reasons are what is attracting me.
Constant agitation should give even, reproducible results.

[Bill Burk]

Welly, Bill: Could you mention what developers you are using?

I'm sure from the context you were asking "Bill, 70's military B&W".

But maybe this will be helpful...

I use D-76 1:1 in trays and believe that Kodak documentation is right on the mark when recommending 2 ounces of stock per 4x5 sheet of film... So in my 5x7 tray which barely holds 20 ounces I really should only be doing 5 sheets of film. I regularly do 6 or 7, and have found if I exceed this my development time has to be extended.

One time I thought I'd be thrifty and develop three passes of film through the same tray of developer. The results; 2nd pass 15% less Contrast Index than expected; 3rd pass 15% less Contrast Index than that. Afterwards, I read the spec sheet and found that if you develop more film in D-76 without replenishment; recommendation is to develop 15% longer.

Since I prefer to stay within 15% variation... lately I have been sticking to the recommended 2 ounces per sheet of 4x5 and discarding after single use. (I believe that 2 ounces is a rounded amount... but is close enough to remember).

[ShawnHoke]

After researching it, including reading this thread, I tried brush developing my 8x10 film. It felt weird at first, but it works like a charm if you don't mind doing one sheet at a time.