Pyrocat HD and TMY – What the heck am I doing wrong?

[JBelthoff]

Let me preface by saying Delta 100 and TMY-2 are my main films. I recently delved into Pyrocat HD and my Delta 100 looks fantastic. However with my TMY-2, something is way off.

I processed in a Jobo 3010 on top of a Beseler Rotary Base at about 30 RPM at 75 degrees. I used a 1:1:100 solution and processed 8 - 4x5’s in 1000, (1020), ml of solution for 9 minutes.

I then used a half strength acid stop for 15 seconds and then 6 minute fix in TF-3 and final wash and wetting agent.

What I am left with is thin negatives, even the Kodak ID letters are thin, and massive streaking across large areas of the film. See this web example (http://www.johnbelthoff.com/images/web/web-example.jpg). Please note the contrast has been boosted a bit to demonstrate the streaking.

I don’t see any of this on my Delta 100 in virtually the same process except for time in the developer which is only 6:30.

What the heck am I doing wrong?

[Jan Pedersen]

I don't use Pyrocat anymore but i did use Pyrocat MC for about 5 years. 9 minutes seems short to me, i developed TMY 2-2-100 for 10 minutes, this was for PT/Pd printing but i still think you need more time in the dev. 75 degree is also high for pyrocat as oxydation will have an impact before you reach 9 minutes at that temperature.
How do you expose your TMY? 250 was ideal for me.

[JBelthoff]

Yes I just realized that I never stated my EI which was 250. Any idea where the streaking is coming from?

[onnect17]

The agitation in the 3010 is quite high and uneven and the oxidation affect Pyrocat-HD more that other developers. If you want to keep the same setup then try 1:1:50 and 6:30 min.

[Jan Pedersen]

Streaking and uneven development is just what made me give up on Pyrocat. I never have any problems with other developers.

[Larry Gebhardt]

I use 6:45 minutes with Pyrocat HD 2+2+100 (1+1+50) at 75F in a Jobo drum with TMY2. I don't use a stop bath, just a water rinse followed by TF-4 or TF-5. I haven't seen streaking like that before in the Jobo, but I did have issues with Pyrocat in a Combiplan that looked sort of like that. I would guess you are oxidizing the developer. Try dumping the dev half way through and replacing it with fresh. Or just up the concentration like I did based on the advice of others.

[JBelthoff]

OK,

So I will give 2:2:100 or 1:1:50, which I belive is the same thing, a try. However now you have me confused. Why is this only happening on TMY-2 and not on the Delta 100. Is it the extra time for the TMAX? And is it the oxidation thats causing the streaking?

[onnect17]

Try it and see. Otherwise, if I have to develop 10 4x5s I would use a Yankee tank at 1:1:100 and agitation first 30s and then every 30 sec. Tmax looks great with pyrocat-hd.


OK,

So I will give 2:2:100 or 1:1:50, which I belive is the same thing, a try. However now you have me confused. Why is this only happening on TMY-2 and not on the Delta 100. Is it the extra time for the TMAX? And is it the oxidation thats causing the streaking?

[sanking]

What I am left with is thin negatives, even the Kodak ID letters are thin, and massive streaking across large areas of the film. See this web example (http://www.johnbelthoff.com/images/web/web-example.jpg). Please note the contrast has been boosted a bit to demonstrate the streaking.

I don’t see any of this on my Delta 100 in virtually the same process except for time in the developer which is only 6:30.

What the heck am I doing wrong?

Jeff,

First, there is nothing inherently flawed in your procedures. For the negatives to come out very thin, with streaking, there are only two or three reasons, and they all involve the strength and/or condition of the developer. The possible explanations are.

1. The stock solution itself was not mixed correctly.

2. The stock solution has lost most of its strength, either from age or perhaps from contamination.

3. The working solution was not mixed correctly, or it was contaminated by acid left in the Jobo after a previous development, or it was mixed and left too long before use.

Thin negative are usually due to underexposure, but with the right developer and working solution this would not result in streaking. And streaking could be caused by the Jobo method, but if the developer and amount of solution is correct you would get normal looking negatives except for the streaking.

I have personally used Pyrocat HD for years and years with TMY and will state with absolute confidence that there is no inherent incompatibility between the developer and film.

Sandy

[Richard Wasserman]

Do you presoak the film? If not, it might help with the streaking problem. I also think your time sounds a bit short.

[JBelthoff]

You know one of the things I thought I learned from reading this forum for hours and hours is to finely detail everything you did so people don't assume things… Turns out that’s a little more difficult than first thought so here is some more. :p I apologize for skipping the following:

1. There was a pre soak for 2 minutes at 75 degrees.
2. I used distilled water for everything except the wash. Photoflow was distilled.

Now to Sandy’s points.


1. The stock solution itself was not mixed correctly.
This was my second test. First test was using Photo Formulary purchased, this test was from my mixture. Both produced the same thing so I would rule this out.


2. The stock solution has lost most of its strength, either from age or perhaps from contamination.
Both mixes were in glycol and my stock was mixed less than 2 weeks ago . I'm very careful about contamination of A&B so I would also rule this out.


3. The working solution was not mixed correctly, or it was contaminated by acid left in the Jobo after a previous development, or it was mixed and left too long before use.
10ml of A & B were measured and mixed with the 1000ml of developer water during the presoak so I would also rule this out also. I clean my stuff meticulously after processing so I do not think Acid would be left in either my graduates or the 3010 but I will certainly look for that in my next test.


Thin negative are usually due to underexposure, but with the right developer and working solution this would not result in streaking. And streaking could be caused by the Jobo method, but if the developer and amount of solution is correct you would get normal looking negatives except for the streaking.

I have personally used Pyrocat HD for years and years with TMY and will state with absolute confidence that there is no inherent incompatibility between the developer and film.

Sandy, I have no doubt this is an excellent combination. I have seen the results from others. I am just having a devil of a time reproducing it here.

Also, the Delta 100 looks brilliant.

Obvioulsy the streaks are from the JOBO's rotation as they match the direction of the fluid across the film surface.

I got the starting times from here: http://www.pyrocat-hd.com/html/times.html. Because my first TMY neg's were thin I added a minute to the published times.

Because the Delta 100 worked well and that is 6:30 I am going to try again tomorrow with a 2:2:100 mixture and shorten the time in the developer as suggested above and see if that improves things.

Stay tuned... and Many thanks!

[jp]

http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?Film=TMax+400&Developer=Pyrocat&mdc=Search

Says 15 minutes for 1:1:100. THat's what I use with a combiplan or patterson reel tank. I like the film and developer combination a great deal.

http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?devrow=8111 says 10 minutes for jobo and 24c. I don't use a jobo or other motorized agitation, so I can't speak to that.

[Joe O'Hara]

How are you pouring the developer into the tank? I use a filter funnel with a length of vinyl hose on it so that I
can pour the developer in while the tank is rotating. I can easily dump a liter of solution into there in less than
30 seconds and it's rolling the whole time.

[JBelthoff]

Joe, I use a tramission fluid funnel to pour in the horizontal position. jp498, I saw that this mornign about the same time you posted. So thanks.

I just got done with another batch. This time I did only 6 sheets in the 3010 tank with everything else the same expect I used 2:2:100 for 7 minutes at 75 degrees. 7 minutes was a guess between what was posted above and what is posted on the Massive Dev Chart.

So far the densities look fantastic! Much better than before.

At first glance I do not see any streaking; however I won't know for sure until later when they are dry and I can scan them. I am thinking that doubling the working solution strength might have done the trick.

More when I scan later tonight...

[photobymike]

Streaking is why i went to pipettes for measuring the concentrate. because of the high concentration of the developer, you need accuracy with your measurements. Also i use separate dedicated pipettes for each solution because of the ease that contamination can happen. I stopped having problems when i improved my lab technique. oh and rinse your tanks very well before you use them again.

[JBelthoff]

Success!

I just scanned my latest batch which was 6 sheets in the 3010 with everything the same except doubling the capcity of the working solution to 2:2:100 and lowering the time in developer to 7 min although I think 6:30 would be what I'm after and it looks great!

No streaking! Very smooth looking negatives even when loading up with contrast processing in ps.

I can't thank you all enough for your help with this! Now I can't wait to go out and shoot some real shots.

I... am a very happy camper! :p

[Richard Wasserman]

John, I'm glad you got it working—it's a wonderful combination.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I always use 2+2+100 with TMY-2, 24C, in BTZS tubes (4x5 and 8x10). I don't bother with a pre-wash.

[sanking]

Streaking is why i went to pipettes for measuring the concentrate. because of the high concentration of the developer, you need accuracy with your measurements. Also i use separate dedicated pipettes for each solution because of the ease that contamination can happen. I stopped having problems when i improved my lab technique. oh and rinse your tanks very well before you use them again.

When working with Pyrocat-HD or -MC the working solution is very dilute in terms of the amount of reducer in the solution. This is one of the reasons the developer gives such nice results. However, the fact that the working solution is so dilute places a high premium on accurate measurements. You make a good point in emphasizing this fact and the use of dedicated pipettes or syringes to avoid contamination is great lab technique.

And your suggestion to rinse the tanks before use is also important with Pyrocat-HD. The working solution is very dilute and works at a high pH (about pH 10.9). Any residual acid left in the tank, say from fixing with an acid fixer, could significantly lower the pH of the working solution, which would dramatically reduce the energy.

Sandy

[JBelthoff]

Sandy,

You make a good point here. However, and I'm not sure of the technical reason as to why and I will defer to the oxidation reason described in the previous posts, doubling the capcity to 2:2:100 and reducing development time solved my problem.

But just to add clarity, the first test which had the streaking and thin negatives, were measured using 2 seperate Photo Formular syringes for A&B at exactly 10ml. They were 12ml syringes and netiher has touched both solutions EVER!

And as I have never had problems with Delta 100 using 1:1:100 and the exact same setup I'm failry certain that the measuring instruments or contamination was NOT my problem. At least until I crap out on Delta 100 in the same fashion using 1:1:100.

That being said, and while I'm certainly happy to have a working solution, I would like your input on the oxidation issue. Or any other reason as to why this change fixed my issue. I would like to learn a little more about what I am doing... even though I have a workable solution...!

Thanks,

[Andre Noble]

I swore off Pyrocat a few years ago because problems I had similar using Jobo. Admittedly I dont like being defeated as many others have reported consistent results. People on this site were dogging me out, saying my technique was "sloppy" and this causes the issues.

I haven't used the developer since, but the above explanation regarding pH and active developer amounts was probably key to solving my case.

In the meantime, I moved on to Wimberly W2D2+ pyro. I was impressed when a 2 bottles of it I purchased in 2009, not stored particularly well, last week perfectly developed some Tri-X.

For the Jobo , Wimberly is highly useable if one dumps the developer midway through the recomended developimg time and introduces fresh Wimberly into the drum. The negatives come out very clean - without base fog - like Pyrocat on a good run :)

[sanking]

Jeff,

I did not see any specific problem in your first tests with Pyrocat-HD that easily explains why your negatives were thin with streaking. You used enough working solution for the number of sheets and the 1+1+100 dilution with TMY works fine with rotary development. Yes, you will get more contrast for a specific time of development with 2+2+100 but the weaker dilution is not the cause for gross streaking in my opinion. That could be related to the way the Jobo fills and empties the tubes but I am not familiar enough with your set-up to know if that is or is not a problem. Apparently not because your subsequent negatives came out fine.

But no, I don't have any explanation for the earlier failure except the three issues I mentioned earlier. But in a generic sense these are the three trouble areas that most often explain other failures with Pyrocat-HD.

What I know for sure is that in life sh*t happens and it is not always easy to explain why!!

Sandy

[JBelthoff]

What I know for sure is that in life sh*t happens and it is not always easy to explain why!!

Tell me about it! ;)

Well, at least it's working for me!

Thanks again.