Newbie at wits end.

[Super8]

Hello guys and gals,

Hope this is the right forum for this question.

Been shooting LF for about 6 months. I have a brand new Chamonix 4x5 camera. I have brand new Fidelity 4x5 film holders. I have a brand new changing tent. I have been shooting Tri-x film bought new at photo store. I tell you this only to inform you that this gear is all new, I bought nothing used so the assumption, I hope, is that this gear is not defective. I get the film developed at a professional black and white lab that has been doing it for 35 years.

I have probably shot 25 - 30 exposures so far. The first dozen or so came out fine. However, for the last dozen or so I'm getting a strange fogging around the edges of the negative. It is all exact in uniform. Every image is fogged in the exact same way. I would scan the contact sheets so you all could see it, but I'm not equipped to do so.

Is it possible that I'm not loading the film holders correctly and not getting the negative into that bottom grove?

When I first started getting into LF someone here was kind enough to send me some film boxes that I could use to send my stuff to the lab and I really appreciated that. I'm hopping that someone might be able to help me again.

thank you so very much

[Brian C. Miller]

This sounds like fogging after film has been placed into the container you are sending to the lab. How is the film packaged when you send it to the lab? Are you packaging it in a normal film box, with the three lids? Or are you using a normal box? If you are using a normal box, then light will seep around the edges and you'll get fogging like that.

Try a search for "bathroom darkroom" and look at what some of us have done for home developing.

[Super8]

I have been sending it in an Ilford 4x5 film box with the three lids. In fact this last batch I even put into the dark plastic bag that 4x5 film comes in and then placed that in the Ilford three lid box

[Doremus Scudder]

It is hard to diagnose your problem without images, but perhaps the following will help.

If the rebated (that's the clear border around the image) is fogged, then the fogging is likely happening outside the camera and filmholder. That would point to handling at the lab or your loading/unloading of the filmholders.

If the rebate is still clear, then the fogging is likely happening in camera somehow. Some things to be careful of:
~When removing and inserting the darkslide, be very careful you are not pulling the camera back open. I pinch mine close with the fingers of the hand I'm not using to pull the slide.
~Try not to expose the darkslide opening to bright light when shooting. Even new holders will leak a little light sometimes through the light trap. Cover it with your darkcloth.
~Make sure that when you are storing or transporting your filmholders, that the darkslides are not somehow being pulled open a little bit.

Since the fogging is the same for each negative, I would not suspect random fogging from the changing tent. Check the orientation of your fogging with your filmholder and camera (keeping in mind that the image is upside-down and backwards on the ground glass). See if the fogging is always on the light trap side of the holder, or close to the end of the camera back that opens.

Check your camera to make sure something is not wrong there: if the camera has removable bellows, make sure they are mounted properly and that there are no obstructions around the bellows frame. Check your lensboard and lens mounting: make sure there are no light leaks when the board is mounted on the camera. Check to make sure your camera back is mounted correctly as well and that all baffles are engaged, etc.
And check your bellows too, even though they are new. Rack them all the way out and check for leaks.

If you have a digital camera, put your negs on a light box or tape them to a window and take a close-up shot or two to post here. That's not a scan, but would help diagnosing your leak problem.

That's about all I can think of at the moment, hope it helps.

Best,

Doremus

[lenser]

This may be a rather detailed process of elimination on your part as it could be from a number of sources including as Doremus indicates, your own handling techniques, not only with the camera, but with any stage on the film handling.

Even the best lab might have an off day. Questions, after that first dozen, was all the rest of the film processed in one batch, or did you send it in two or more batches and were there problems with all batches after the first one? Is all of the film from the same original box? Was it split among several ten sheet boxes, or what?

Also, based on a recent experience I had; was there any problem with the integrity of the box when it arrived at the lab? (My problem occurred when one of the post office machines apparently part way crushed one edge of a 50 sheet box and split one corner while it was inside of the lab provided mailing envelope. I now only send my boxes inside one of the small priority mailers that is designed to hold a VHS tape sized item.)

One diagnosis you can try is to get a fresh box of film from your dealer and shoot one holder with fresh film, and another holder with film from the earlier batch to see if you have a leak from that source. Shoot all four sheets of the same subject in the exact same lighting conditions. Do that same test but also send the film to another lab (Denver Digital Imaging, or Allied Photocolor for example) in order to rule out problems at the lab you are using.

It's remotely possible but doubtful that if at any time while you were loading film with the box open, and if you removed one or both arms from the sleeves of the tent before resealing the box, and if you were in a fairly bright to very bright room or out of doors while doing this, some light could have penetrated up the sleeve and fogged the film. Watch your techniques. I use the best there is, Harrison which is absolutely light tight, and still prefer to load/unload in a dim room just in case there might be an undiscovered problem.

To test both the camera bellows and the integrity of your tent, go to a darkened room and while using a small flashlight inside the camera carefully examine each corner of the bellows for light leaks. Do the same around the lens board with the light from the removed back and then examine around the replaced back with the light coming from the removed lens position. Examine each seam of the wood fittings like this from every angle as well as each fold and pleat on the corners of the bellows while it is at maximum extension. Do the same with the light inside the tent with everything zipped up tight while you check around the sleeves and the zippers for the access opening. Even though those are the most likely spots for leaks, shine the light all over the interior while you study the entire surface of the tent for a leak. If you find a leak, return it.


Good luck.

[ImSoNegative]

I fogged several sheets of 8x10 film because i wasnt pushing the holder all the way in when i would put it into the camera

[Brian Ellis]

I don't know the source of your problem but I doubt that it's failing to get the negative in the proper groove. I used to do that all the time at first. When I did it I'd know I did it because after I made a photograph and started to put the dark slide back in the holder the bottom edge of the slide would catch the top of the film and cause the film to curl up and pop out of the holder. If that isn't happening then I don't think the groove is the problem.

Sorry I can't help other than to probably eliminate one source of the problem. The fact that this "fog" is uniform from one negative to the next tends to rule out many of the usual sources of light leaks (e.g. pin-holes in the bellows) since their effect tends to vary from one negative to the next depending on how far the bellows is extended, the brightness and direction of the light, etc.

[Peter Lewin]

Doremus's suggestion to take a digital snapshot of a negative and post it would be very helpful, and I'm sure someone on the forum could then diagnose the problem. Another thought: if the professional lab which is developing the negatives is nearby, perhaps you could take in a negative and ask their opinion. If they have been in business for 35 years they have probably seen everything! Or you could "snail mail" them one of the negatives you don't care too much about, along with a note requesting their thoughts on the problem.

[Lenny Eiger]

A most standard newbie mistake is pulling the dark slide out at an angle and lifting it ever so slightly off the back. Hold the back with you hand to make sure you don't do this. It also seems to me that if the images are fogged in the "exact same way" it is likely the film. You may have had some sort of the light leak while you were putting film back in the box, etc.

If you have a light leak in the bellows, which does happen, you could get a similar fog mark, but not exact. Development would also likely not be exact. Could you have taken your hand out of the dark bag or tent before you put the film away? Did you use a safelight if you were in the darkroom loading?

There are so many things to check - but I would start with a fresh box of film... and check that first...

Lenny

[Super8]

thanks everyone. i think the first test is to check for light leaks with flashlight in dark room. then get new box of film and shoot with that. i will try to post image if i can figure out how

[ROL]

When I first started getting into LF someone here was kind enough to send me some film boxes that I could use to send my stuff to the lab and I really appreciated that.

Light Proof Triple Boxes (http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/pages/film#tripleboxes)

Wit's end... you're certainly in the right place. :D

[rdenney]

Did you check to see if the light leak extends into the edge area that would normally be protected by the slot on the holder?

I'm not getting how this could be pulling the back away from the camera by accident. It sounds too consistent for that. And that would fog the middle of the image, not around the edges, especially if those edges are protected by the film holder.

I'm thinking the stack of film got exposed to light, either before it was put into the box, while it was in the box, or while it was being taken out at the lab. If so, the evidence of light leakage would extend all the way to the edge of the film, not just to the edge of the frame.

If the damage is around the edge but not in the part hidden by the holder, then I might be stumped.

Rick "wondering if your local post office uses X-ray scanning" Denney

[MIke Sherck]

If you haven't solved this beforehand, the next time you're getting ready to pack up some film for processing include one unexposed sheet that was loaded into a film holder and a second unexposed sheet straight from the box. And always pack film you're sending for processing back into the bag it came in, inside the triple box. A simple precaution but every little bit helps!

Mike

[Super8]

Did you check to see if the light leak extends into the edge area that would normally be protected by the slot on the holder?

it does extend into that area, but only in places. mostly i can see the outline of the slot. so this means the film is loaded correctly into the holder, right?

[rdenney]

it does extend into that area, but only in places. mostly i can see the outline of the slot. so this means the film is loaded correctly into the holder, right?

It wasn't an issue of whether the film was loaded correctly, but rather whether the trouble occurred when the film was in the holder or somewhere else. Your description makes me want to see it--I'm imagining a couple of possibilities.

Is the effect of the light leak strongest at the very edge and then fading towards the middle? Or is it strongest somewhere in the middle and fading towards the edge? "Strongest" means densest. If it's the former, then I still suspect the trouble occurred with the film outside the holder--the exposure of the image might still have produced a visible edge of the holder.

But if the frame opening of the holder is visible even on an unexposed frame (or the unexposed portion of a frame, if you have such), then I'll bet that it fades as it nears the edge of the film. That would tell me that the light leak was strong, and halation carried it into that hidden edge area.

Rick "making a down payment on the thousand words that a picture would replace" Denney

[Darin Boville]

Do you have a cell phone camera? Anything/ A picture would really, really help! :)

--Darin

[Super8]

I'm having trouble getting my digital camera to sync up to the computer. I'm embarrassed :o to ask this but if someone in the know PM'd me their address I could send a contact sheet

[Joseph Dickerson]

Does the lab that does your processing offer scanning services? Maybe they could scan one or two of the problem negs and burn them to a CD for you.

JD

[cowanw]

It is often useful if you fill in where you are in your profile.

[Jim Michael]

The problem occurring suddenly after a number of good negs might point to the film box in which the film is stored prior to use has been opened resulting in edge fog.

[Super8]

copy. will do

[Super8]

copy. will do. (meaning I'll fill in my profile). I live in Los Angeles

[Super8]

The problem occurring suddenly after a number of good negs might point to the film box in which the film is stored prior to use has been opened resulting in edge fog.

if it is that, i simply don't know how I did it. Brand new Harrison changing tent. Kept the sleeves tight until finished.

[cowanw]

I will bet there are lots of people in LA to meet and show it to.

[Michael Alpert]

it does extend into that area, but only in places. mostly i can see the outline of the slot. so this means the film is loaded correctly into the holder, right?

That might mean that your "fogging" may be the result of overexposed negatives. If you overexpose by several f-stops, light from bright areas (such as the sky) will leak into the border of the film. And, yes, if you can see the edges of the "slot," you are loading the film correctly.

[C. D. Keth]

Where are you in LA? I'm in Eagle Rock. I know there are people here in Pasadena and further east, Orange County, and out west in the valley. I'm sure one of us is close to you and can have a look. If you're in my area, give me a call 818-636-7859

[Super8]

thanks chris. just dropped you a PM

[Super8]

That might mean that your "fogging" may be the result of overexposed negatives. If you overexpose by several f-stops, light from bright areas (such as the sky) will leak into the border of the film. And, yes, if you can see the edges of the "slot," you are loading the film correctly.

thanks. a relief on loading the film correctly. Don't think overexposed is the issue. Been using the Zone System and been doing good with it.

[Super8]

problem solved: a bad batch of film from Kodak

[Flauvius]

How do you know that the cause of your problem was " a bad batch of film from Kodak"?

[Super8]

only ever shot one box of 4x 5 film. all fogged around the edges in the same exact manner

started a new box - all photos ok, not fogged