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Brian K
21-Nov-2012, 18:40
So what I thought was fungus in my 80mm Symmar XL turned out to be a defect in the glue that bonds the elements together, it eventually turns hazy. According to Badger Graphic, who now refuses to carry these lenses because they had so many returns. Further it seems that it became so cost prohibitive for Schneider to fix these lenses that they now will only do so at a cost of $1200.

This same defect also appears on the 110mm XL as well.

I am preparing to file a complaint with US Customs, or whatever other governmental agencies that are appropriate about these lenses and would like to hear from those of you who have encountered the same issue, even if Schneider repaired or replaced it for you at the time. The more people that come forward the stronger the case that this was a defect in manufacture. No lens should become unusable after a few years.

I should also caution anyone considering the purchase of these lenses that they have a fair probability of having the same issues so seeking an alternative like a Rodenstock, Fuji or Nikkor might be advisable.

J. Gilbert Plantinga
21-Nov-2012, 18:57
I own both of these lenses, purchased from Badger in 2007 - 2008 and have had no problems with either. When did you purchase yours?

Brian K
21-Nov-2012, 19:02
BTW that's Schneider in Germany, that won't stand behind the product. Schneider USA will warranty it for 5 years, after that you're out of luck.

Brian K
21-Nov-2012, 19:04
Gilbert, in 2007. Take a good look at your lens, especially the 80mm, shine a light at it.

Vick Ko
21-Nov-2012, 19:05
Brian, do you know what serial number range is affected?

I bought a used 110mm XL. s/n 14908xxx

Schneider's lens sn chart only goes to 2000 and 14,730,xxx
http://www.schneideroptics.com/info/age_of_lenses/

Oh, found a better chart. I'm likely 2005.
http://www.ground-glass.net/large-format/schneider-lenses-age

Brian K
21-Nov-2012, 19:14
Vick my 80mm starts with #14963xxx. But according to Jeff at Badger it seems that it happened more often with the 80mm so maybe you'll be lucky. But shine a light a the front element and see if it has any cloudiness....

J. Gilbert Plantinga
21-Nov-2012, 19:26
My 80 is 14992xxx and it's fine.

Brian K
21-Nov-2012, 19:38
Glad to hear it Gilbert. Still, keep an eye on it over time. My 80 was stored in a temperature and humidity controlled room with vapor and fume filtering from a medical and allergy grade air cleaner (IQair) designed for print and equipment storage, along with 40 other lenses, all of which were older, some 30 years older, and which show no signs of any defects.

Mark Stahlke
21-Nov-2012, 19:59
I've owned and used both of these lenses and have no problems. The 110mm is one of my "go to" lenses. I recently sold my 80mm but only because I didn't like its light falloff characteristics and went back to my 75mm Caltar II-N.

Brian K
21-Nov-2012, 20:16
There are previous threads about this:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?15123-Schneider-Super-Symmar-80-4-5-XL-problems

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?9823-Super-Symmar-XL-80mm-haze-on-glass

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?66998-Help-Haze-found-on-Schneider-Symmar-5-6-210-12-370-convertible-lens

Vick Ko
21-Nov-2012, 22:09
Um, have you tried to clean the haze off?

I just cleaned the haze of my lens. It was trivially simple. I must have had a 5mm wide ring all around the back of the first element. I took off the front lock ring with a spanner tool, lifted up the first lens and cleaned off the haze from the back side of the first element, and re-installed the lens.

It is now crystal clear.

Vick

Ari
21-Nov-2012, 22:15
Um, have you tried to clean the haze off?

I just cleaned the haze of my lens. It was trivially simple. I must have had a 5mm wide ring all around the back of the first element. I took off the front lock ring with a spanner tool, lifted up the first lens and cleaned off the haze from the back side of the first element, and re-installed the lens.

It is now crystal clear.

Vick

:)

Brian K
22-Nov-2012, 05:31
Vick, the haze on my lens is dead center, second from what I was told by a camera tech I contacted who looked at the lens diagrams for the 80mm, the very first element is cemented to the next element and according to Jeff at badger, and he has had to deal with this problem so often that he no longer sells this lens, that it is the cement itself that is the issue. Further if it were just a matter of screwing off the retaining ring and wiping off the inside of the lens then why does Schneider want $1200 for it?

Vick Ko
22-Nov-2012, 06:55
Ah, okay Brian. Thank you.

My lens is the 110mm XL. I was afraid that the hazed element was a cemented doublet, but that seems to be not the case. Per the data sheet, the first element is a single element: https://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/datasheets/super-symmar_xl/super-symmar_xl_56_110_1.pdf

By the way, I looked at the datasheet for the 80mm f4.5.
It is a very similar formula, with a single element front lens: https://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/datasheets/super-symmar_xl/super-symmar_xl_45_80_1.pdf

They must have changed their optical design on the 80mm.

Anyway, good luck with your attempts to make this right.

regards
Vick

Kevin Crisp
22-Nov-2012, 08:38
If the glue between elements is the problem and turning hazy, partial disassembly and 'wiping it off' isn't going to do anything. You'd have to take the two elements that are glued together out (I don't know how hard that is to do on this model) separate them (weeks of soaking in MEK or you could try the flammable hot solvent technique) then clean them and reglue them and reassemble. This is not that difficult a DIY repair unless the diameters of the two elements are different, in which case success would be difficult.

Reporting it to US Customs? They won't be interested. Might as well report it to the Humane Society.

My 110 is still fine, I purchased it shortly after they came out.

It might be worth getting an estimate from Focal Point in CO it might be much less for this. $1200 seems quite high.

George Hart
22-Nov-2012, 09:30
My 110 XL SN 14785XXX is just fine. Phew.

Richard Wasserman
22-Nov-2012, 09:40
I have a 110 XL that developed haze. I had Bob Watkins of Precision Camera Works look at it and it turned out to be a fairly simple procedure—the haze was not between cemented elements.

Vick Ko
22-Nov-2012, 14:33
Yeah, according to the lens cross-sections on the Schneider site, the cemented doublet is near the rear of the lens on the 110 and 80.

If the haze is on the front lens, it should be easy to clean off.

I've actually recemented lens doublets, including on some pretty rare expensive lenses. It is tricky, but one thing with older lenses is that they may have used Canadian balsam as the optical cement. With that, you actually have a hope of de-cementing the lenses safely, without damaging the lenses themselves.

When modern UV optical epoxies, I am thinking that after properly curing the cement, it is impossible to separate the doublet. I bet that is why Schneider would charge $1200 for repair if it involves a doublet. They are providing a new lens pair, and probably redoing the entire alignment and collimation again. Not a cheap job.

regards
Vick

Brian K
21-Dec-2012, 06:18
An update. Sent the 80mm to Bob Watkins, apparently the front elements are sealed and the haze effect is not fungus but some sort of clouding of the cement between elements and there's nothing they can do. The person I spoke to stated that she's seen enough of these issues with these lenses to determine that there's a real pattern here of a manufacturer's defect. She further stated after examining my lens is that it showed no signs of inappropriate storage or water damage and that there's no reason other than manufacturer's defect for something like this to happen.

Jeff at Badger says that because he's seen this issue so often that he no longer is willing to sell these lenses....

So does Schneider stand behind their products? No, they want $1200 to fix their screw up.....

Vick Ko
21-Dec-2012, 08:18
Sorry to hear, Brian.

So what recourse do you have?

Any chance you can post a photo of the defect? I wouldn't mind seeing what it looks like.

I see that you have already said that the defect is right in the middle of the lens.

Martin Aislabie
21-Dec-2012, 08:35
An update. Sent the 80mm to Bob Watkins, apparently the front elements are sealed and the haze effect is not fungus but some sort of clouding of the cement between elements and there's nothing they can do. The person I spoke to stated that she's seen enough of these issues with these lenses to determine that there's a real pattern here of a manufacturer's defect. She further stated after examining my lens is that it showed no signs of inappropriate storage or water damage and that there's no reason other than manufacturer's defect for something like this to happen.

Jeff at Badger says that because he's seen this issue so often that he no longer is willing to sell these lenses....

So does Schneider stand behind their products? No, they want $1200 to fix their screw up.....

Brian, this won't help you but it might help the rest of us

What is your Lens serial number ?

Thanks

Martin