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View Full Version : The eternal question......



David Young
24-Mar-2004, 22:39
Ok, time once again for the eternal question:
Which camera would you recommend and why?

Use:
Pretty much the gamut.... outdoor/day-hikes for landscape etc...
Studio for still lifes and fine-art modelling.
Possibly some light architectural.

musts:
4x5 (would consider 5x7 with a reducing back if there are good reasons)
Graflock back
Rigid
light weight... but rigid is more important.
Usable with 400mm lenses, but most likely lens will be normal length (210ish)

desires:
Geared movements
Cheap ;-)

Notes:
I'm not going to spend money just to spend money or for cachet, but I'm willing to pay what it takes for quality and features.
I think a monorail will fit the bill better than a technical or field, but nothing is out of the question here. I'm willing to be convinced either way.
I have a camera in mind.... but I don't want to bias any opinions from the people here who use LF all the time.

Any comments or suggestions on what I should be looking for/at would be greatly appreciated!

D.

Graeme Hird
25-Mar-2004, 01:01
Just looking at the "Use" table suggests you want an Ebony, but I would suggest you look at getting two cheaper cameras, one each for the studio and the field.

Get a Shen Hao or Tachihara for the field and a secondhand Cambo or Calumet for the studio.

The camera is just a box (or two) - get good glass.

Graeme

Lloyd Lim
25-Mar-2004, 01:12
You did not specify a budget for this - so I'm assuming dirt cheap here :)

Are you ok to buy more than 1 camera, assuming they are cheap?

Then a good field camera would be a crown/speed graphic (can go up to a 360/400mm tele lens, depending on how close you want to focus), if you can live with the limited movements.

You can get these at $200 or so, usually with an old lens

And a good/cheap monorail for the studio would be a graphic view / Calumet cc400 series which will set you back by about $150 or so...

Get a good wrench to help in changing the lenses from one lens board to another (or get a lensboard adapter)

There you go - $400 for a complete camera(s) that can do both studio and field shots :)

An alternative would be to buy an Aletta or a Bender (or DIY your own camera).... The Bender is a wooden monorail, so it will work for both field and studio and you can make your monster bellows and longer rails to fit a lens of any size :)

A good start would be the large format photography primer here on this site :)

jose angel
25-Mar-2004, 02:59
You are talking about a Canham DLC45.

In the use: Lightest for backpacking, rail and bellows similar to a studio monorail, plenty of movements for architectural shots. Drawbacks: is not yaw free, only geared focus.

Musts: 4x5 (and smaller with my 6x9 roll film adapter), Graflock back, rigid enough, and capable to use without accessories with lenses from 55 to 420mm (non telephoto, as I do). Drawbacks: until is rigid enough to work with confidence, it has an "elastic feeling" that others canīt admit. I have been using mine from years with success.

The only thing I miss after a long time using the DLC is a faster set-up capacity; you need the same the time to set-up than with a studio monorail camera. My 5x7" Technika type camera is just open, focus and shot. But when I need a really good print, I take the Canham...

Gem Singer
25-Mar-2004, 07:09
Hi David,

Since you desire a camera with geared movements, prefer a monorail that you can use in the field, and want high quality. The Arca Swiss F-Field will fill the bill nicely. Take a look at Jack Dykinga's book, "Large Format Nature Photography". He shows how to use the Arca Swiss F for outdoor nature photography, almost like using a Leica.

Also, you stipulate being able to handle a 400mm lens. That's a challenge for most 4X5 flatbed field cameras. The Arca Swiss can easily handle a 400, but it is not an inexpensive camera. However, there are some good previously owned ones available at reasonable prices.

David Young
25-Mar-2004, 08:47
Thanks for your replies, and I look forward to reading more.... a couple of comments:

Graeme:
I'll take another look at the Ebony series and add them to my short list. In the case of this camera, I think I'd rather not go with two...
:: The camera is just a box (or two) - get good glass.
Ahh..... this is being kept firmly in mind, but I appreciate the reminder nonetheless!

Lloyd:
Not to assume dirt cheap at all.... again, I'm not going to spend money to spend money, nor am I willing to pay for a "name" when I can get the same or better features on a lesser known name (back to the reminder that a Camera is just a box) but to get the features I want I'll spend pretty much up to what I've found is the maximum price for a 4x5.
I'm leaning away from a technical/field camera for the very reason that I've found in renting them I want to use more movements than they can give me. Not frequently, but I hit the stops often enough on the Wista that I've rented that it's firmly in mind.

Jose:
The DLC is on my short list, as is the MQC to a lesser degree. It might be a lock on one of these except I'm still concerned about the rigidity. Maybe I'm over-cautious on that point, but I've heard from several users that the back standard particularly is hard to keep in alignment with the front. Hmmm, I wonder if one of the stores nearby would rent a DLC to me for a weekend. As for fast setup.... it doesn't bother me generally, as part of the point is to slow down a bit. If it were a real issue I'd go for the two camera solution and make the second camera a Littman 45s for the quick grab-shots.

Eugene:
Thanks for the heads up on that book, I'll definitly grab a copy. I've looked at the Arca, and it's also among the short list. As for the 400mm lens, I'm starting to think that may be more of a limitation even for Monorails, and now I'm going back to see if it's really something that I'll use often enough to make it a MUST rather than a WANT. There's also little reason to not use a telephoto to keep the bellows shorter. The price of a new or used one is within my budget assuming it's the right choice.

Thanks again all, and I look forward to hearing more!
D.

Jim Galli
25-Mar-2004, 09:22
I bought a Toyo 45E (Omega) a couple of weeks ago to rob the 300MM Nikon lens from it. Which I did. But I was very impressed with the machine itself. Everything seemed made for ease of continued hard use in a studio environment. It was light and strong and the movements are very nice for the user. Best of all they seem to be sleepers. I resold with an older 8 1/2" US made lens for $395. Hardly a bank breaker. And perhaps cheap enough to consider the 2 cameras 2 uses idea. The Shen Hao's are indeed handsome for the fee. My first thought was to keep it also but I just don't do any 4X5 indoor type work at all. Pics from the sale below if interested;
pic0 (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/02-22-04/Omegaview_0.jpg)
pic2 (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/02-22-04/Omegaview_0.jpg)
pic4 (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/02-22-04/Omegaview_0.jpg)
pic6 (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/02-22-04/Omegaview_0.jpg)
pic8 (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/02-22-04/Omegaview_0.jpg)

Eric Rose
25-Mar-2004, 09:32
Jim, they're all the same picture.

Buy a Master Tech and be done with it.

neil poulsen
25-Mar-2004, 09:32
There are 400mm telephoto lenses out there that don't require any more bellows draw than about a 300mm lens at infinity.

Bob._3483
25-Mar-2004, 10:13
Substitute "_2", " _4" etc for "_0" in Jim's URL to see the other pics.

i.e.
pic0 (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/02-22-04/Omegaview_0.jpg)

pic2 (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/02-22-04/Omegaview_2.jpg)

pic4 (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/02-22-04/Omegaview_4.jpg)

pic6 (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/02-22-04/Omegaview_6.jpg)

pic8 (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/02-22-04/Omegaview_8.jpg)

Someone got a bargain by the look of it....
Cheers,

CXC
25-Mar-2004, 10:23
I have to disagree with Neil, beware telephoto lenses if you ever do any front tilt or shift, which require reframing and refocussing every time.

Monorails are the way to go for rigidity and large movements (e.g. for architecture), so long as you can deal with the awkward packing and setup/teardown. I vote for an Arca-Swiss.

Edward (Halifax,NS)
25-Mar-2004, 10:50
The Gandolfi Traditional 4X5 is a double extension field camera with 480mm bellows extension. Now, I don't know if the front can support a standard 400mm lens cuz that would be VERY heavy but it got a good review for fit and finish in View Camera magazine. The Variant is half the price of the Traditional and also has enough extension. I have not read any reviews on that one though.

David Karp
25-Mar-2004, 11:12
One note about the Arca Swiss F Line. If you are going to use 400-450mm lenses with it, you will have to use an extra long bellows. The standard bellows on the 4x5 is 15" long. This raises the spectre of having to carry three bellows: The standard, extra long, and a bag bellows for wide angles. For some reason, the standard F Metric will extend farther than the standard bellows allows. This seems to be a silly quirk in an otherwise great camera.

I do not know if you run into the same problem with a Sinar F2, which is another candidate. Sinar users will have to chime in. Another alternative is a Cambo 45SF. You can use a 450mm lens by adding an extension monorail. The standard bellows extends far enough to use with the 450mm.

Good luck.

jose angel
25-Mar-2004, 11:18
David, you are correct. Thatīs what I want to say about the time needed to set-up the camera. Due to the design of the camera, the standards have zero locks and bubble levels, but not absolutely precise -to my needs-. Every time I take the camera out of the bag, I use an special homemade square to put the standards in an really -absolutely parallel- position. Itīs not hard work, it takes just that bit of time. If you need more info about it, please feel free to email me.

I wonder if flat bed cameras with consistant zero locks would have their planes absolutely parallel when opened... a clear "click" doesnīt mean: "ok, standards are now parallel" (I will take the job checking my other cameras) Itīs just a joke, good luck,

jose angel
25-Mar-2004, 11:30
Just one more thought. IMHO you can apply to the DLC45 the ideas wrotten about the rigidity of the JMC810. Read the Ron Bose past topic "JMC 810".

Justin Medlock
25-Mar-2004, 17:03
I'd also have to vote for the Arca Swiss -- Compact or Field. Of course, I don't own one, but do want one, and may eventually get one.

Joe Photo
25-Mar-2004, 17:42
I give two thumbs up for my Graflex Graphic View I.

David Young
26-Mar-2004, 23:06
Thanks for all the input everyone...... I've got my short-short list down to:

Toyo VX125 -
This one's been on my short list for a while now. Not as long a bellows draw as I'd like, but I can get extended Bellows and rail for it and it'll go up to a 300mm lens down to 10 foot focus with the stock parts.

Arca Swiss F-Metric Compact -
I'll save a hundred or two dollars, and add a couple of pounds of weight. Stock rail is 400mm, but I'll realistically need 2 bellows to use a short and a long lens. For a few bucks more and probably a little more weight, I can add geared tilts to the package (Anyone know how much weight the Orbix tilts add?)

Canham DLC -
Weighs about the same as the VX125, costs about a thousand dollars less, has longer bellows draw than either and no geared anything other than focus. Under most use, it's rigid enough, but even Keith Canham admits that there are moments where the rigidity suffers a bit, albeit in cases where even the strongest monorail will likely suffer from the wind anyway. In other words.... it's unlikely I'll get any work done in a situation where the Canham might flex a bit no matter what camera I use.

So that's my short list...... I guess it really comes down to wondering if buying into a system and geared movements are worth an extra $1000 to me. I'm gonna drive up to a camera store tomorrow that carries all three cameras and "fondle" them to see which one(s) feel better and/or more natural to me.... but I'd still like to hear anything that anyone would like to add.

Thanks again,
David.