Schneider lens defects, 800mm and 110mm XL

[Brian K]

So at first I thought I had condensation in my 80mm XL Symmar. So I put it in a dry box with a kilo of silica gel. After nearly a week of this no improvement. So then I thought maybe it's fungus. So I checked with Jeff at Badger graphic. Turns out that Schneider had an issue with the adhesive used on the 80mm XL and 110mm XL lenses. He says he's had about 50 cases of this and that Schneider refuses to take any responsibility and will only fix it at a cost of $1200. Suffice to say he no longer carries the XL lenses.

I have sked him to compile a list of those photographers affected and will attempt to see what can be done when a large group takes action against Schneider. Imports into the US are regulated in various ways and maybe a government agency can be of assistance. If anyone has had this type of issue with a Schneider lens please let me know.

In further conversation with Jeff, he also states that Rodenstock has far better QA than Schneider and that he has experienced many Schneider lenses having unacceptable QA issues right out of the box. All I can say is that one had better think twice before buying a Schneider lens....

[Kirk Gittings]

Wow that sucks, but good to know for sure. Good luck with this.

[E. von Hoegh]

Wow that sucks, but good to know for sure. Good luck with this.


^What Kirk said.^

[Frank Petronio]

That's a shame because I thought that Schneider was the last company left actively developing new large format lens (infrequently and more as "special editions" than any new technology but still more than the other lens companies).

Have you tested the lenses and have the images degraded since they were new? And as a practical, expedient solution, could the fellow at Focal Point clear them properly for a reasonable amount?

[Bob Salomon]

Since you are right around the corner from Schneider on Long Island have you asked them your self?

[Leigh]

I've known about Schneider QA problems for years.

I don't own or use any Schneider lenses. Rodenstock forever!

- Leigh

[Sal Santamaura]

...I have sked him to compile a list of those photographers affected and will attempt to see what can be done when a large group takes action against Schneider. Imports into the US are regulated in various ways and maybe a government agency can be of assistance. If anyone has had this type of issue with a Schneider lens please let me know...


Since you are right around the corner from Schneider on Long Island have you asked them your self?As Bob probably knows, Badger is a gray market importer, so Schneider on Long Island would have no involvement in this matter. Any government agency being of assistance would need to take action against Badger, not Schneider on Long Island. I'm not sure whether said government agency has any purview over Schneider in Germany, the party ultimately responsible for your lens issues.

If a significant number of photographers respond about this issue, publicizing your situations might encourage Schneider in Germany to accept its responsibility. Given the large worldwide on-line photographic community today, a boycott could even be effective. I'm not an expert, but think that legal action across the Atlantic would be more difficult.

[Leigh]

Schneider has not cured "Schneideritis" in all the years it's existed.

Why would they care about this or any other customer complaint?

Interestingly, here's a recently-revived 7-year-old thread about problems with the 80/4.5 XL.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?15123-Schneider-Super-Symmar-80-4-5-XL-problems

- Leigh

[Sevo]

If a significant number of photographers respond about this issue, publicizing your situations might encourage Schneider in Germany to accept its responsibility.

For grey market imports? Don't hold your breath...

[Sal Santamaura]

...If a significant number of photographers respond about this issue, publicizing your situations might encourage Schneider in Germany to accept its responsibility...


For grey market imports? Don't hold your breath...No, for Schneider's worldwide sales of these defective lenses, disregarding country sold or import channel. I've not heard anything about Schneider in the US making good on "officially imported" XL lenses with the same issue. If someone has, please correct me.

[Vick Ko]

Wow. Not great news.

Do you have the serial number range for "affected' lenses?

And if you own an "affected" lens, is there a permanent remedy? What about a thorough disassembly and cleaning?

Does this lens tear down and go back together in a straight-forward fashion, i.e. not needing active re-alignment?

Vick

[Drew Wiley]

This problem is not "Schneideritis" at all, is unique to these two particular lenses; and I've
heard about it for several years, and even cautionary statements about buying used lenses
prior to the alleged fix. B&H clearly labels what products are labeled gray and which are
under official US import warranty, and none of this would make me gun-shy of other Schneider products. Nobody has a 100% batting average on radical new designs, and it is
sad that this fluke became so seriously inconvenient.

[Michael Alpert]

Brian,

Did you purchase this lens new? Was it purchased from Badger? I believe Schneider did take back and replace defective XL Symmar lenses for a number of years after the first batch, which was the defective batch, was sold. (I think I am remembering this correctly.) So, in a technical sense, they did honor their international limited warranty. The ethical question remains. The whole situation is a shame; the XL Symmar lenses, when they are good, are very good.

[Leigh]

This problem is not "Schneideritis" at all, is unique to these two particular lenses; and I've
heard about it for several years,...
That's exactly my point.

I did not say this problem was "Schneideritis". Go back and read my post.

The problem is the fact that Schneider does not care about correcting defects in its products.

The reference to "Schneideritis" is just another example of this corporate policy.

- Leigh

[Brian Vuillemenot]

Does this issue affect the usability of the lens? I thought that Scneideritis was just a cosmetic issue, the lens works just as well as one without it, although the resale value is quite a bit less...

[Leigh]

Go back and read my post #14.

The issue is not the defect, it's the company's lack of interest in correcting the defect.

- Leigh

[Brian Vuillemenot]

Go back and read my post #14.

The issue is not the defect, it's the company's lack of interest in correcting the defect.

- Leigh
Does this mean that it does not affect the image quality? I'm not implying that Shcneider shouldn't care or currect the situation, just curious as to the effect on usability. I have a 110 XL that looks fine so far, but am worried that this could happen to me also.

[Leigh]

Hi Brian,

I don't own any Schneider lenses, for the reasons stated above, so I'm not the best person to answer your question.

It's my understanding that Schneideritis does not affect image quality except in very severe cases, where it might
contribute to internal flare.

- Leigh

[Frank Petronio]

It kills the resale value at the least.

[Michael Alpert]

The problem is the fact that Schneider does not care about correcting defects in its products.
- Leigh

This kind of overstatement is not helpful. Schneider, Rodenstock, Fuji, and Nikon all make fine usable lenses. They try very hard to produce the best lenses possible. I've used great lenses from all of these companies for many years with no problems of any kind. Also, by the time many of us will be ready to sell our lenses, they will probably not have much monetary value. It doesn't matter. Lenses are not investments.

[Leigh]

This kind of overstatement is not helpful.
Your opinion... nothing more. You do not speak universal truths.

Company reputations depend on how good their products are, and their level of commitment to product quality.

The two problems discussed in this thread certainly call Schneider's commitment in that regard into question.

- Leigh

[Brian Ellis]

Strange how some people seem to have problems like this and others don't. I don't mean to suggest that people who own the lenses discussed here are doing anything wrong, rather that it seems to be the luck of the draw as to whether problems exist or not. I had the 80mm XL, never had a problem of any kind with it or any other Schneider lens I owned which included the 210 APO Symmar and numerous G Clarons.

[Leigh]

I had the 80mm XL, never had a problem of any kind with it or any other Schneider lens I owned...
That's likely true of the majority of owners.
There are an awful lot of photographers who shoot Schneider lenses with great results.

The problems are certainly not with a high percentage of the lenses, only a few.
But they do reflect on corporate management philosophy and priorities.
If they don't correct the glaring problems, how many minor ones do they ignore?

- Leigh

[Sevo]

If they don't correct the glaring problems, how many minor ones do they ignore?


As far as I remember, the XL separation issues were corrected after a year or two, and affected lenses exchanged under warranty. Things may be different with flawed grey market lenses appearing a full decade after the fact - while I'd be annoyed at any maker rejecting the responsibility for a legitimate product merely bought from an official distributor in the wrong country, grey market lenses might be more illegitimate than that (e.g. resurfaced lenses from the flawed batch which had been sold at a massive discount as disposable/short-lived for some destructive application like crash tests).

[Tim Povlick]

As far as I remember, the XL separation issues were corrected after a year or two, and affected lenses exchanged under warranty. Things may be different with flawed grey market lenses appearing a full decade after the fact - while I'd be annoyed at any maker rejecting the responsibility for a legitimate product merely bought from an official distributor in the wrong country, grey market lenses might be more illegitimate than that (e.g. resurfaced lenses from the flawed batch which had been sold at a massive discount as disposable/short-lived for some destructive application like crash tests).

Hi Sevo,

I believe you are correct.

About 3 or 4 years ago I sent a 110xl back to Schneider in Germany for a quick repair of the internal haze. They were very helpful and returned the corrected item via overnight service. So impressed with their service and quality of lenses I've since purchased a new lens (APO-S-L:480mm) - a wonderful / very sharp lens. Also purchased some old ones and the "itis" seems to have little effect. If I were worried about that, I'd pop it open and use a proper paint to fix it.

Years later the XL is still clear, so I think they've nailed the problem.

Bye,

Tim

[Jon_2416]

I seem to recall that being correct also. And, I think I remember that the issue was centered more around the 80mm than the 110mm. I remember feeling that enough time had gone by that I could safely buy a 110mm, and I did. It was fine. That was probably 2002 or so? Maybe it has been the luck of the draw, but the three Schneider lenses I've owned have all been impeccable products.


As far as I remember, the XL separation issues were corrected after a year or two, and affected lenses exchanged under warranty. Things may be different with flawed grey market lenses appearing a full decade after the fact - while I'd be annoyed at any maker rejecting the responsibility for a legitimate product merely bought from an official distributor in the wrong country, grey market lenses might be more illegitimate than that (e.g. resurfaced lenses from the flawed batch which had been sold at a massive discount as disposable/short-lived for some destructive application like crash tests).

[Bernice Loui]

Got one of the very first 110mm XL imported to the US. The lens is fine to this day since 1999. Waited almost an year after the initial order to receive the 110mm XL.

During the long wait, there were many conversations with the folks at Schneider with delivery. It turns out Schneider had a lot of problems producing the aspherical element. The initial batch of these lenses that was produced was pretty much done by hand with ground the aspherical element individually ground by hand/machine. The sales guy hand carried the initial batch (about 5 or so lenses) of 110mm & 150mm XLs back to the US from Germany in his brief case.... as he told me about this over the phone. Later production they went to a molding/grinding process of some kind. It does make me wonder if their production quality control many have slipped over the years.