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Lightbender
18-Sep-2012, 10:00
What can you tell me about the Fujinon 250mm soft focus lens?
Does anyone know of any example photos?

Ken Lee
18-Sep-2012, 10:23
Here (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/fujinon180/index.php) is a link to some images made with a 180 Fujinon SFS lens, at close distance on 4x5 film. (No disk).

These lenses have very nice blur rendition. Shhh, don't tell anyone about these lenses. :cool:

When stopped down more, they are quite sharp.

vinny
18-Sep-2012, 10:31
http://www.flickr.com/search/groups/?m=pool&w=60561869%40N00&q=fujinon+250mm+

Alan Gales
18-Sep-2012, 10:38
I would think that they are pretty much the same as a Rodenstock Imagon except the Imagon is 250mm. They both use "strainers" to achieve the soft focus effect.

BrianShaw
18-Sep-2012, 10:57
80731

250 Fujinon SF, Yellow disk, wide open I seem to recall.

Either Bergger 200 or FP4+... don't remember at the moment.

Scan of the contact proof... I know that for sure.

Ken Lee
18-Sep-2012, 11:36
I would think that they are pretty much the same as a Rodenstock Imagon except the Imagon is 250mm. They both use "strainers" to achieve the soft focus effect.

You maybe right, but they are different designs. The Rodenstock has 2 elements, while the Fujinon has 3.

You can view the Rodenstock brochure here (http://www.prograf.ru/rodenstock/largeformat_en.html).

You can view the Fujinon brochure here (http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/as-sfs.htm).

Louis Pacilla
18-Sep-2012, 11:39
I would think that they are pretty much the same as a Rodenstock Imagon except the Imagon is 250mm. They both use "strainers" to achieve the soft focus effect.

They're really not even in the same ball park as far as a true diffused focus type lens. The Imagon is a achromatic meniscus with iris in front and is a SCREAMING diffused focus lens with no disks i place. In fact most of us use the Imagon w/out the disk in place. While the Fujinon 250 f5.6 SF is a semi sharp triplet with no strainers in place and really just looks soft as in not critically sharp but not glowing or showing sharp image with overlapping glow but when used w/out strainer it's best stopped down a bit and used as a sharpish triplet. You almost have to have the disk in place on the Fuji to get the glow. With the Imagon and using a comparable disk in place has far more glow then the Fujinon SF w/ approximately same size disk.

There ya go, Ken beat me to it.

Alan Gales
18-Sep-2012, 13:48
Thanks guys! I learned something. :)

SergeiR
18-Sep-2012, 13:54
250mm on 4x5

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/6906190234_82f1161309.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sergeistudio/6906190234/)
Elona (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sergeistudio/6906190234/) by Sergei Rodionov (http://www.flickr.com/people/sergeistudio/), on Flickr

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5455/6908750940_bfece39104.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sergeistudio/6908750940/)
Field of dreams (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sergeistudio/6908750940/) by Sergei Rodionov (http://www.flickr.com/people/sergeistudio/), on Flickr

I dont think i used disk on either one

SergeiR
18-Sep-2012, 14:04
They're really not even in the same ball park as far as a true diffused focus type lens.
They achieve softness (aberrations) using slightly other means. In the end of the day "glowing" is merely question of using proper lighting for them. Some like it. Some hate it. Same goes for any kind of soft/nonsoft lens. IMHO, of course..

Michael Jones
19-Sep-2012, 08:21
This information on the Fuji SF lenses is probably available somewhere either on the web or this forum, but I'll post it here for information. Sorry for the poor scans, but they are old photocopies. I'll post the big Fuji list later.

Mike

Mark Sawyer
19-Sep-2012, 10:57
This is, of course, only a personal opinion, but I think the Fuji SF was hurt by being made only in shorter focal lengths. For best use, soft work should be contact printed, meaning an 8x10 or larger negative for a reasonably-sized print. The glow from the spherical aberrations loses a bit of its delicacy when enlarged, and the smooth, rich tonalities of a contact print goes hand-in-hand with the look of a soft lens.

Michael Jones
19-Sep-2012, 11:11
This is, of course, only a personal opinion, but I think the Fuji SF was hurt by being made only in shorter focal lengths.

Actually, there is a 420mm Fuji SF listed. Never seen one; never seen a photo of one.

Mike

Mark Sawyer
19-Sep-2012, 13:20
Actually, there is a 420mm Fuji SF listed. Never seen one; never seen a photo of one.

Mike

I've never seen or heard of one, but it should be wonderful on an 8x10! I wonder whether it was available in a shutter? I don't know of a modern shutter that could hold an appropriately fast 420mm, and an f/9 soft focus just doesn't seem right...

BrianShaw
19-Sep-2012, 13:24
http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/byseries.htm

According to this source, it was offered in barrel. I've never seen one either.

pound
19-Sep-2012, 23:25
a few examples here that I took after obtaining the lens from Mr Jones off this forum.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7103/7181483884_60472008d6_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26920982@N02/7181483884/)
the glow patterns on the highlights with the yellow disc.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7104/7188430978_57355b0e5b_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26920982@N02/7188430978/)
With the yellow disc

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7087/7188444704_d97bb3215a_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26920982@N02/7188444704/)
without the disc

Michael Jones
20-Sep-2012, 06:17
The highlights in the first one just sing to me.

I'm glad the lens found such a good home!

Mike

BrianShaw
20-Sep-2012, 06:38
Lb... that's aperture wide open without the disk, isn't it?

pound
20-Sep-2012, 08:04
Michael : Thanks! i wish I use more of it though :)

yeah those are all shot wide open..which is f8 with the yellow disc attached.

a few more examples. I am quite sure I have the yellow discs in when taking these few shots. (the 2nd pic is quite obvious)
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7115/7494544048_3e51ef0f4a_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26920982@N02/7494544048/)
you can see the rings hightlights in the background. if this photo look softer that is because i double exposure it becos i set the shutter stop over by a stop accidentally.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8294/7494551540_d3cdaa082a_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26920982@N02/7494551540/)
Too strong the Glow in the highlights

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8300/7814275142_2078ea4077_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/65061445@N08/7814275142/)
Soft and no ring highlights.

Bogdan Karasek
12-May-2015, 18:02
I've never seen or heard of one, but it should be wonderful on an 8x10! I wonder whether it was available in a shutter? I don't know of a modern shutter that could hold an appropriately fast 420mm, and an f/9 soft focus just doesn't seem right...

Hi,

The 420mm is listed here:

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/byseries.htm

Comes in a barrel, so get the Packard shutters out....

Bogdan Karasek
12-May-2015, 18:13
Since we are on the topic, and I am sitting in front of my newly found Fujinon-SF 180mm and -SF 250mm, I have a few questions. Very interesting thread, I might add. Maybe someone can tell me the purpose of large red dot on the grill? Does it have to be oriented a certain way, thus aligning the grill a certain way?.... I`m guessing here. I do notice that the red dot is the same size as the holes in the grill. Is that supposed to tell me something? Otherwise, concidence???

mdarnton
12-May-2015, 18:24
The red dot is just to identify which grid you are using. There's another one that's yellow. And they match up with the f numbers indicated by the yellow or red scales. One involves more of the outer edge of the lens, which is where the unsharpness comes from, than the other. The disk is a way to give less exposure without stopping down and losing the unsharpness--by the time you get down to f11 with these lenses they lose most of the soft focus and become essentially normal at f22. With the disks you can use the lens wide open or just one stop down, but get a smaller effective f-stop, as indicated on the appropriate scale for your disk.

I'm not fond of my 250 at all--so far it just seems like a bad lens, not a classical SF lens, but I'm still figuring it out, so that could change.

BrianShaw
13-May-2015, 12:36
The disks are used to control the amount of diffusion. No disk - maximum diffusion, yellow disk - moderate diffusion, red disk - more subtle diffusion. ...

No disk - DOF per normal aperture and least diffusion (minimal... almost none... just what one would expect from a triplet design lens)

BrianShaw
13-May-2015, 14:00
Your lens must be different than mine, then. I can easily get my hands on one and have had my hands on it for quite a while. :)

BrianShaw
13-May-2015, 14:24
Well, what I experience is that without a disk, wide open (f/5.6), there is a lot of OOF due to shallow DOF. Any diffusion present is, as you say, due to the spherical aberration left in the design... but I think the "diffusion" is buried by the regular OOF. The strainers add diffusion with the outer holes, which cease adding diffusion when stopped down two stops from the f/stop associated with each disk... because the outer holes are no longer admitting light. Perhaps we are using the terms 'diffusion' and 'OOF' differently when no strainer is in place. The instruction sheet posted earlier in this thread interestingly states that the lens is designed to be used with a strainer and the strainer is used to maximize diffusion. I'm thinking that we are using some terms differently. I find OOF to be very different to the diffusion of any SF lens.

BrianShaw
13-May-2015, 17:01
Ah. I've never considered anything I've seen when shooting without disk to have noticeable glow. I'll have to look harder, perhaps. The pic I posted earlier is typical of when I use SF so may be very different from your shots.

russyoung
13-May-2015, 17:59
I own an 180 and 250 and have simply looked at a ground glass image of the 420. Have put an easy 50 sheets of 4x5/5x7 behind the 180 & 250. Like BrianShaw, I am unable to find any diffusion whatsoever. Its just 'not sharp'. I use Veritos, SemiAchromatics, Spencer Portlands, Imagons, Plasticcas, etc., with desired effect. But not the Fujinons... ymmv.

mdarnton
13-May-2015, 18:11
Yes, I completely agree with that. Here's an example, no screen at between 5.6 and 8, and you can click through for a larger version--for me, it's just a lens that won't focus, not anything special. It doesn't show the wirey sharpness surrounded by haze or the added DOF of a real soft focus lens. If you want a SF lens that doesn't break the bank and acts like one should, there are better choices . . . heck, I like my Reinhold Wollaston a lot better.

This is just an aside, and I'll probably build a post around it later, but a lens I like a lot is the 15" Wollensak tele-Rapter in shutter. Screw out the back, stash it in a safe place, and move the front around to the back. It will look funny, like a Kodak Portrait Lens, and it works great, f5.6 at around nine inches. It's the poor man's Verito (https://www.flickr.com/photos/michaeldarnton/17146398051/sizes/l).

But the Fujinon? Here it is:

https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7648/16945855792_7966c1e409_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/rPrWxs)

Dan K (https://flic.kr/p/rPrWxs)
by Michael Darnton (https://www.flickr.com/photos/michaeldarnton/), on Flickr

Jim Andrada
13-May-2015, 20:37
Wouldn't the strainers increas diffraction effects?

BrianShaw
13-May-2015, 20:39
That, exactly, is our differing opinion. The instructions say so as does my experience but TAG has different experience.

diversey
14-May-2015, 06:04
How to use Fujinon SF lenses
The spherical aberration of these lenses has been retained to enable them to produce the desired effects. Through acquaintance with the effects they will produce is therefore necessary in order to make the most of what they can offer because the picture will turn out differently depending on how they are focused or defocused as well as on the aperture used and on whether or not the picture is taken with the grid on or off and the type of grid used.

Focusing
The intended effects may not be possible if the lens is first focused with the aperture fully open then afterwards closed down to take the picture. The correct focusing procedure is outlined below

1 Focusing the lens with the aperture set for exposure. With soft focus lenses the case is not the same as other type of lenses in terms of focusing. It is advisable to adjust lens while watching the soft effect it will produce

2 Focusing the lens with the aperture closed down. The aperture is set for exposure then closed down by 1 or 2 stops for focusing the lens on a vital point of the picture, e.g. on the catchlight in the case of portraits. The aperture is then reset for making the exposure.

How to use grid
The grid enables the Fujinon SF Lenses to yield maximum soft effect picture
1. To mount a grid on the lens
2. Normally, the standard soft effect is produced at F9 using the Yellow grid or F10 using the Red grid
3. The grid requires the use of aperture differing from those for normal aperture.

mdarnton
14-May-2015, 06:08
The grid I'd like to see is one with a big dark spot right in the center. I thought about seeing if I could get a UV filter in there with a dot in the middle. That might bring it in line with something older, if you don't mind doughnut highlights. :-)

BrianShaw
14-May-2015, 06:38
me too. that should not be too difficult to make.

I've also wondered about making one with lots and lots of teeny-tiny holes like on the MF version.

BrianShaw
14-May-2015, 06:43
How to use Fujinon SF lenses
(snip)

(source: transcribed from the instructions. thanks!)

The one topic the instructions don't discuss could be part of the issue being discussed. Lighting. The pic I posted on page 1 is soft and diffused, but very different from the pics posted on page 2... even though I believe they use the same disk and aperture. That could be a lot of what causes the "glow" that TAG is describing, even when no disk is present. I'm more interested in mild soft and diffuse effects than a profound "glow" so never lit to achieve that look, whether using a SF lens or any SF filters..

Peter De Smidt
14-May-2015, 06:52
I have the 190mm version for the GX680 system. It uses the same type of "strainer" as the LF lens. It is a very hard lens to focus, even with an 8x loupe. I tested this with a good ruler from Lee Valley. First, I focused on a specific mark on the ruler with my 180f/3.2 lens at f/3.2. The developed film showed that the focus was right on. With the 190SF, I focused at the taking aperture, starting with wide open, and then doing exposures stopped down, refocusing each time. The results showed that sharpest focus was about 3/4 inch behind what I was focusing on.

BrianShaw
14-May-2015, 10:43
Very interesting speculation. I've never seen a Japanese version of the instructions. Just that one, which does seem to have some peculiar translation.

diversey
14-May-2015, 10:53
I did not translate this instruction, just retyped it from the instruction Michael Jones posted on page 2 in this thread, although sometimes Japanese-English translation is funny.

Why don't we do an experiment? Shoot a scene with and without yellow/red strainers.



Could there be something lost in the translation from Japanese to English here? I've seen more than a few Japanese products come with instructions that have pretty funny translations. The phrase "to yield maximum soft effect picture" might perhaps more accurately be translated as "to yield the most effective soft effect picture" or something like that. The word maximum implies that the soft effect is greatest when a disk is used, and at least in my experience, this is not the case. Perhaps someone who speaks proper Japanese and has a Japanese language owners manual can offer their thoughts on this.

BrianShaw
14-May-2015, 11:17
...

Why don't we do an experiment? Shoot a scene with and without yellow/red strainers.

Yellow strainer vs no strainer only:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?95020-Fujinon-250mm-Soft-Focus&p=934142&viewfull=1#post934142

mdarnton
17-May-2015, 08:52
I did the experiment I mentioned earlier: I drew a 20mm black dot on the adhesive end of a post-it note and stuck it to the back of the 250mm Fujinon SF's front element. On a different camera I had my 11.5" Verito. Even with the center of the Fujinon blocked, there was just no comparison--the Verito was both sharper and at the same time had more halo.

diversey
29-May-2015, 08:26
Fujinon 250mm/F5.6 with yellow grid/strainer. Focused at F8 (yellow 8 letter) with yellow grid/strainer
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=134519&d=1432913111

Fujinon 250mm/F5.6 with yellow grid/strainer. Focused at F11 (yellow 11 letter) with yellow grid/strainer
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=134520&d=1432913158