Wista 45vx or Chamonix 045n-2

[Meekyman]

Hi Folks,

I guess we're all sick of this vs that type of camera thread, but I will soon be new to LF and just wanted to canvas opinions.

So, here we go....I've had my hands on a Chamonix 045n-2 on a workshop, cost incl. shipping $960 and weight 1.3 Kg. I liked the camera but so far I've only my hands on that and an ebony (wayyyy to expensive!). I want to try LF, give it a go for a year or so and if I like it and it likes me, then I'll downgrade my digital gear. If I don't like it, then I'll sell the LF kit and keep with digital. Will be for landscape photography. I was ready to buy a chamonix.

But I keep on coming back to metal field cameras. I spotted a deal on fleabay for nearly $895 for a Wista VX + extension boards (300mm) + long bellows + horseman 6x7 film back. I would sell the back, but the board and bellows seem really useful!

My "dilemma" is "new, know nothing is wrong with functionality but paying new prices" for the Chamonix vs "probably fully depreciated, but functionality may be not perfect" for the wista. Gain in weight for the wista can probably be taken by relatively healthy back, but with the wista vx I imagine it would be more stable. Is this so?

I imagine using 90, 135, 210 + one longer lens. Would the wista be more restrictive on the short end?

Any seasoned users out there want to chime in?

Cheers

Graham

[Brian Ellis]

I've owned a Chamonix, I've never owned or even seen a Wista metal camera. But based on what you've said here as between it and the Chamonix I'd buy the Chamonix, mainly because I have a 300mm lens and wouldn't want to fiddle around with extension boards, add-on bellows, etc. in order to use it. I'd buy a camera that was designed to use the lens in the first place. But maybe you won't be using a lens that long or maybe it isn't that big a deal to mess around with the other stuff in order to use it.

The Chamonix I owned was plenty stable. The metal cameras I've owned (Linhofs) were very nice, a tad more precise, a tad smoother, in general more like a precision instrument than any wood camera I've owned including the Chamonix. But for me whatever minimal gain there was in those areas (and it's very minimal, more a matter of "feel" than a real practical benefit in actual usage) would be more than offset by not wanting to use extension boards, bellows, etc. every time I wanted to use a 300mm lens.

There obviously may be considerations other than using a longer lens that would sway you towards the Wista and if so that's fine. I'm certainly not saying the Chamonix is a "better" camera, just that it would be better for me given the lenses I use and the way I photograph.

[Frank Petronio]

I'm a fan of the Wista VX because you can close it with most 135/5.6 Schneider-Nikkor-Rodenstock lenses. Having seen and handled both, the Wista will be more robust and durable, it is a high quality camera, good for most landscape work. I think it is faster to open and set-up than the Chamonix too. I like the all black stealth looks and I can assure you the fresnel and ground glass are top-notch (better than the Chamonix I think). I used to own the SP, which is nearly identical to the VX (buy whichever is the best deal).

The advantages of the Cham are that it is lighter, has more movements and the bellows being longer and more flexible is better able to handle the extremes of lenses in stock configuration (to a point), also the bellows should be brand new. Not too shabby at all.

The Wista is the more conservative choice - I especially like keeping a lens mounted and ready to go and the controls are more intuitive, but both are great cameras.

[B.S.Kumar]

I've never seen a Chamonix, but have used several Wista cameras, and now have the RF. They're solid cameras, quick to set up, and have all the movements I need for landscape. There are two kinds of WA bellows - one uses regular recessed lensboards, the other uses a special Wista recessed board that is great to work with. A 90mm can be used with the standard bellows, which are quite flexible, while either WA bellows will allow a 55mm lens.

Kumar

[Noah A]

Problem is the people who have Chamonix cameras will mostly recommend those, and same for Wista owners.

I'm in the latter camp, when I came back to LF a Wista VX was the camera I chose. The Wista is rock solid. From my very limited experience with other wood cameras I'd say it probably has the advantage there. The Wista sets up instantly and is almost automatically zeroed out upon setup, which is how you want to be before setting up a shot. It has geared rise which is nice, and it's tough as nails. As Frank said you can fold it with many 135mm (and some 150mm) lenses inside, which is nice and saves some space in your bag. It's the kind of camera you can throw in a backpack or the trunk of your car and not worry about it.

I eventually switched to a Linhof since it offers slightly more movement with the semi-wide lenses I prefer and, let's face it, because it's a beautiful piece of engineering. But the Wista is a great deal and a solid metal field camera.

The only real downside to metal fields in my opinion is that some movements (most notably front fall, which neither the Wista nor my Linhof MT2000 have) are not possible or are difficult to achieve. You'll need to drop the bed or go through other machinations. If you often shoot from tall buildings, for instance, and want to frame your shot lower, then it can be a pain. From ground level I rarely use front rise though.

So I'm admitting that this is biased advice since I prefer the toughness, rigidity and precision of metal cameras. But I'd go for the Wista.

[Frank Petronio]

Having a front fall is nice for portraits too, as well as landscapes like water scenes. That being important to me, I went with a less than backpack friendly monorail ~ to get more movements.

However now that I look at it, the Chamonix offers a fair amount of fall, unlike the Wista and Technika. I never realized that until just now ~ I still prefer metal cameras for their rigidity but I have to give points to the Chamonix (first time I said I liked a wooden camera!)

[Bob Salomon]

"The only real downside to metal fields in my opinion is that some movements (most notably front fall, which neither the Wista nor my Linhof MT2000 have) are not possible or are difficult to achieve. You'll need to drop the bed or go through other machinations. If you often shoot from tall buildings, for instance, and want to frame your shot lower, then it can be a pain. From ground level I rarely use front rise though. "

Noah, you are probably overlooking a major feature of your Technika. All Master Technika cameras have lens drop. All you do is unscrew the accessory shoe on top of the camera and lift it off. That will reveal a 1/4-20 tripod socket on the top housing of the camera. Mount the camera to your tripod head using this tripod socket and what had been lens rise is now lens fall. Same amount of lens fall as the camera has lens rise.

On the current Master Technika 3000 the accessory shoe is unscrewed with the Allen key that is supplied with the camera. On earlier versions you reach into the body housing, under the accessory shoe and unscrew the large knob that you will find there. Very easy and very quick to do.

If you have a Linhof Heavy Duty Pro tripod or a Linhof Profi 3 tripod Linhof also makes an Outrigger Arm accessory so you can mount the camera upside down to the Outrigger for lens drop without taking the shoe off the top of the camera. But most people just take the shoe off.

[Corran]

(first time I said I liked a wooden camera!)

:eek:

So while my Cham is not as rigid as my Toyo GII monorail, it really is closer than it should be, weighing what it does.

I carry around my Cham on the tripod, with or without a lens. I almost never fold it up, mostly because it is kind of fiddly with that. Other than that I think it's the perfect field camera, having used a few different ones. I use all of the bellows for lenses from 47mm to 500mm. The only thing more versatile is that Toyo at like 10x the weight, which is why I use it in a studio setting.

[Alan Gales]

If you like metal check out a used Toyo 45Al or 45All. Prices have come down on these cameras lately on Ebay.

These cameras will take a 90 on a flat board and use up to a 100mm lens for landscape photography. You won't be able to close focus the 100mm for portraits though due to the slightly longer than 12" bellows draw.

[B.S.Kumar]

The Wista has a very conveniently located tripod socket as shown in the photo. For fall, you only have to loosen the knobs, push the camera back to the desired angle, set the film plane vertical and lock the knobs again. Takes less than ten seconds.

Kumar

[Alan Gales]

If you like metal check out a used Toyo 45Al or 45All. Prices have come down on these cameras lately on Ebay.

These cameras will take a 90 on a flat board and use up to a 100mm lens for landscape photography. You won't be able to close focus the 100mm for portraits though due to the slightly longer than 12" bellows draw.

Sorry about that. I meant up to a 300mm lens!

[Robert Ley]

Kumar has it exactly right! Just tilt the back and center up the front standard and you are good to go. I have done this with a 75mm lens, bag bellows and my Wista VX. It is also extremely tough and will handle a lot of abuse. I am able to leave my 150 Caltar IIN on and close the camera. Very fast setup as has been noted.

[Trius]

I have had both the Toyo 45A (used for over 30 years) and a Chamonix 45N-2, purchased recently.

Chamonix:

* Light (very) and compact
* More movements than a field camera
* Compatibility with more focal lengths without accessories, tele/recessed boards, etc.

Toyo/Field

* Faster to set up
* Less fiddly to adjust movements (caveat: I am still getting used to the Chamonix)
* Built like a brick outhouse

In my case I was going for the lightest yet well crafted and reliable field camera I get at reasonable cost. As the body ages, this is not a trivial matter. ;)

If you are looking at resale value if LF doesn't suit you, then I think you should go with the least risk.

I don't subscribe to that approach, though it is certainly reasonable. I usually try to determine the best tools. If they are out of my means I either try and find acceptable alternatives or start a savings plan. I don't put much weight on resale value, because I've learned that neither am I good at predicting the future, and doing so almost always compromises my judgment. Tools selected with those kinds of considerations often fall short and limit one's ability to negotiate the not inconsiderable learning curve involved. In this case, going from miniature format, highly automated digital, instant photography to large format, completely manual, deliberate work. That's not an inconsiderable task. I would recommend choosing on the basis of what it takes to succeed, not "how cheaply can I get out if I don't like it."

[Noah A]

"The only real downside to metal fields in my opinion is that some movements (most notably front fall, which neither the Wista nor my Linhof MT2000 have) are not possible or are difficult to achieve. You'll need to drop the bed or go through other machinations. If you often shoot from tall buildings, for instance, and want to frame your shot lower, then it can be a pain. From ground level I rarely use front rise though. "

Noah, you are probably overlooking a major feature of your Technika. All Master Technika cameras have lens drop. All you do is unscrew the accessory shoe on top of the camera and lift it off. That will reveal a 1/4-20 tripod socket on the top housing of the camera. Mount the camera to your tripod head using this tripod socket and what had been lens rise is now lens fall. Same amount of lens fall as the camera has lens rise.

On the current Master Technika 3000 the accessory shoe is unscrewed with the Allen key that is supplied with the camera. On earlier versions you reach into the body housing, under the accessory shoe and unscrew the large knob that you will find there. Very easy and very quick to do.

If you have a Linhof Heavy Duty Pro tripod or a Linhof Profi 3 tripod Linhof also makes an Outrigger Arm accessory so you can mount the camera upside down to the Outrigger for lens drop without taking the shoe off the top of the camera. But most people just take the shoe off.

I do it all the time, Bob. But to me it falls under the category of an "other machinations" as it's not a direct movement. Don't get me wrong, it's a great feature and despite this issue I use a metal field as my primary camera. But in trying to give an honest unbiased review (of the Wista, actually) and list what I perceive as the negatives of many metal fields, albeit a minor one. If I know I'll need extreme movements or lots of fine adjustments, I'll bring my TK45S instead. But I love working with the Technika, and more to the point, while the technika is a bit more capable, I enjoyed the Wista VX as well.

Actually, and I hate to get OT since I think a Linhof is not what the OP was interested in, but I do prefer the MT2000 to the wista because of that extra tripod socket on top of the camera. Also because there are two tripod sockets on the bottom of the camera, one on the body box and one on the bed. If you use the one on the body box, you can drop the bed without re-leveling the camera.

To be fair, when I was using the Wista I also had a ballhead. I'd advise that a pan-tilt head (or even better, a manfrotto geared head), would make the process of dropping the bed on a wista much faster. I always got annoyed when I finally got the camera level and then I had to do it again when I realized I needed some lens fall.

Here's the Linhof upside-down in Cairo last month:

[Frank Petronio]

It does provide a nice built-in lenshade that way, perhaps all field cameras should be used that way? It would easy enough to glue a threaded Brass insert into the top of a Deardorff.

[Preston]

I have an 045N-2. It's a wonderful camera--light weight and pretty compact when folded. My only nit, if I was to pick one, is I'd really like independent controls/locks for front rise/fall and tilt. Other than that, it's a wonderful camera for the price.

If you do decide to go with the Chamonix and you plan to use lenses longer than 300mm, I encourage you to purchase the extension board ($122US) at the same time.

I used a Tachihara for years and found the paradigm shift from front standard base tilt to the axis tilt on the Chamonix a little disconcerting at first, but with practice I got dialed in. I don't know if this is consideration for you, but it's something to think about.

--P

[gsinico]

Having a front fall is nice for portraits too, as well as landscapes like water scenes. That being important to me, I went with a less than backpack friendly monorail ~ to get more movements.

However now that I look at it, the Chamonix offers a fair amount of fall, unlike the Wista and Technika. I never realized that until just now ~ I still prefer metal cameras for their rigidity but I have to give points to the Chamonix (first time I said I liked a wooden camera!)

I owned a Wista (wood) with the 135Nikkor. I also have now a Chamonix N-1. I prefer the Chamonix because I have lot more lenses from 58 to 300mm to fit in.
The wista could a easier way to backpack, ready to use, but I think be difficult for the bellow extension to use lenses out of the 90-240 range.
The chamonix is sturdy as the wista... but with more mouvements, and very light to carry. For more mouvements a monorali is the best, so I kept the Arca Swiss F for short distances trips. Then both the two foldings are easy to backpack and to carry on trip, wista will be a little faster to set.

[David Rheubottom]

For what it is worth... I have an 045-2 and a metal field camera (an MPP VII, the English Linhof). The 045-2 is MUCH easier to set up and adjust. Using a 90mm wide-angle on the MPP is a nightmare as are telephotos, and the back adjustments are very fiddly and easy to knock out of adjustment. Since getting the Chaminox, the MPP has only been out of the house once or twice. While metal field cameras are very robust, they are also heavy! A strong back may help, but those extra pounds get very heavy on a long day with a backpack. Have you weighed a stack of loaded film holder? Finally, I had the misfortune of having the Chaminox slip off the tripod a crash down some rocks. It was badly damaged, but still useable. It was fixed like new at the factory for a very modest sum. Try getting a metal field camera repaired! Cheers, Dave

[Two23]

I think that really it's going to come down to whether you like the looks of a metal camera or the aesthetics of a wooden one. I have a Chamonix and love it, but I just like finely finished wood. It has the elegance of the older English field cameras from around 1900 (Sanderson, Thornton Pickard.) The camera is very easy to operate. Either would be a good choice.


Kent in SD

[Bob Salomon]

I owned a Wista (wood) with the 135Nikkor. I also have now a Chamonix N-1. I prefer the Chamonix because I have lot more lenses from 58 to 300mm to fit in.
The wista could a easier way to backpack, ready to use, but I think be difficult for the bellow extension to use lenses out of the 90-240 range.
The chamonix is sturdy as the wista... but with more mouvements, and very light to carry. For more mouvements a monorali is the best, so I kept the Arca Swiss F for short distances trips. Then both the two foldings are easy to backpack and to carry on trip, wista will be a little faster to set.

But the OP is asking about a metal Wista not a wood one. And some wood Wista cameras accept a bag bellows for wide angle work, apparently yours did not. The metal ones also accept a bag bellows.

[vinny]

Here's the Linhof upside-down in Cairo last month:

So, finally a way to see everything right side up like it's supposed to be. Why didn't I think of that?

[Meekyman]

Hi Everyone,

In the end I bought a Chamonix in teak and titanium. At the moment all I can do is admire the camera as there are bits and pieces to buy and stuff to learn.

Thanks

Graham

[Kodachrome25]

Hi Everyone,

In the end I bought a Chamonix in teak and titanium. At the moment all I can do is admire the camera as there are bits and pieces to buy and stuff to learn.

Actually, it is aluminum..:-)

I just got done hiking down and up out of a canyon to work on a book project, pretty steep, 2,100 feet in one mile. I was glad to have a superbly light and able camera like the 45N-2, you will love it, it's a masterpiece of form and function.