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Leigh
29-Aug-2012, 11:03
APUG has just installed an anti-bumping tool that enforces a 3-day wait between bumps.

I think that's a terrific idea.

Perhaps we could install the same here, since both sites use vBulletin.

- Leigh

Kirk Gittings
29-Aug-2012, 11:12
I will propose it to the crew.

BrianShaw
29-Aug-2012, 11:12
I'd rather just see a "rule" that no bumps permitted just for hte sake of bumping -- either add content or lower the price.

Leigh
29-Aug-2012, 11:14
I'd rather just see a "rule" that no bumps permitted just for hte sake of bumping -- either add content or lower the price.
I disagree. The purpose of bumping is to bring the item to people who've not already seen it.

I have a few sales up that I bump once or twice a year, just to catch new blood.

- Leigh

Kevin J. Kolosky
29-Aug-2012, 11:54
And I think its fine the way it is.

BradS
29-Aug-2012, 14:20
There really doesn't seem to be much of a bumping problem here (nor is there one on APUG either for that matter). Seems like over kill.

Darin Boville
29-Aug-2012, 14:28
I don't see a problem here.

--Darin

Vaughn
29-Aug-2012, 14:32
I have no problem with the present system.

Mike Anderson
29-Aug-2012, 14:39
I'd rather just see a "rule" that no bumps permitted just for hte sake of bumping -- either add content or lower the price.

That's easily gamed. I say the system ain't broke.

Henry Ambrose
29-Aug-2012, 15:48
That's easily gamed. I say the system ain't broke.

+100

evan clarke
29-Aug-2012, 16:14
It's fine the way it is, Leigh's just a malcontent.

Cletus
29-Aug-2012, 16:35
I don't mind the occasional bump. Doesn't seem to be too much abuse here and on busy days, lets items of interest move from page 6 to page 1 so we can get a crack at 'em.

Leigh
29-Aug-2012, 16:38
I say the system ain't broke.
You're right... The system ain't broke.

But some users are.

- Leigh

EOTS
29-Aug-2012, 16:48
I don't see a problem here.

--Darin

Pete Watkins
30-Aug-2012, 00:08
Leave it alone, it's working well!
Pete.

Michael_4514
21-Sep-2012, 07:07
Bump.

Michael Graves
21-Sep-2012, 07:16
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Scott --
21-Sep-2012, 09:51
Bump.

+1

richard brown
23-Mar-2015, 11:07
I am not impressed.... I bumped my ad sunday night the 22nd at 1900 hours approx..... and at 2300 hours, Ken Lee instituted this ban. And removed my "bump". My previous comment was on the 15th in the evening. So applying it retroactively seems a bit draconian. I was four hours early on a rule that didn't exist at the time. Excuse me but what???? I have a really nice Ebony camera that someone in the forum will love.... I wish to sell it. I don't think this action was justified. And bringing an ad to the foreground by someone who has been a member and bought and sold gear on this fabulous forum for many years should not be a punishable offence...... yes, some will abuse it and that is why I kind of like the apug rule of three days seems a nice balance.

Michael Kadillak
25-Mar-2015, 18:57
I am not impressed.... I bumped my ad sunday night the 22nd at 1900 hours approx..... and at 2300 hours, Ken Lee instituted this ban. And removed my "bump". My previous comment was on the 15th in the evening. So applying it retroactively seems a bit draconian. I was four hours early on a rule that didn't exist at the time. Excuse me but what???? I have a really nice Ebony camera that someone in the forum will love.... I wish to sell it. I don't think this action was justified. And bringing an ad to the foreground by someone who has been a member and bought and sold gear on this fabulous forum for many years should not be a punishable offence...... yes, some will abuse it and that is why I kind of like the apug rule of three days seems a nice balance.

Good Gawd! Don't the administrators better things to do with their "time?" I contend that 100% of the brethren we hang with here have the intellectual capacity to sort through life's many choices (without any assistance from above) and it is ALL about timing and the fact that with busy schedules not everyone can be online all of the time. If just ONE sale gets completed out of 50 because of the ability to bring an item to the visual front of the line then so friggin be it. It does not degrade nor demean the purpose of the forum one iota.

angusparker
25-Mar-2015, 19:48
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

+1

lenser
25-Mar-2015, 20:35
Seriously over thought choice to wait a week between bumps. When you are selling, exposure is everything. After a week, an item could be buried 10 or 15 pages down. Three days would be more than enough and in my opinion as a seller, two days would be far more appropriate so as to keep a sale item in front of potential buyers.

Surely at least some of the moderators have real sales experience and understand that concept.

Bad choice guys.

If someone were to be bumping four or five times a day, pull the item from circulation. Don't mess up what is a very good working system.

Sal Santamaura
25-Mar-2015, 20:39
...Ken Lee instituted this ban...Ken is only one of the moderators here. Rule modifications are done with the consensus of all moderators plus the site's owner. I'm sure they gave considerable thought to the new rule before reaching a decision. I only wish they'd give further consideration to eliminating the For Sale / Want to Buy category entirely. As you can see, it constantly causes strife.


I am not impressed.... I bumped my ad sunday night the 22nd at 1900 hours approx..... and at 2300 hours, Ken Lee instituted this ban. And removed my "bump". My previous comment was on the 15th in the evening. So applying it retroactively seems a bit draconian. I was four hours early on a rule that didn't exist at the time. Excuse me but what???? I have a really nice Ebony camera that someone in the forum will love.... I wish to sell it. I don't think this action was justified. And bringing an ad to the foreground by someone who has been a member and bought and sold gear on this fabulous forum for many years should not be a punishable offence...... yes, some will abuse it and that is why I kind of like the apug rule of three days seems a nice balance.Although I answered Richard's question in his Ebony For Sale thread, providing what seemed like friendly input and assistance, I'm now disappointed with his behavior. He has taken to posting this complaint in multiple places, unwilling to accept the new rule graciously. It's important to note that, when the rule was instituted two days ago, Richard first posted this complaint. Ken's response was as follows:


Please pardon my poor mathematical skills. I merely calculated wrong, nothing more.

Best of luck with your sale.


...Don't the administrators better things to do with their "time?"...I can't speak for them, but speculate that their answer would be an enthusiastic "yes!"


...I contend that 100% of the brethren we hang with here have the intellectual capacity to sort through life's many choices...You're willing to give more credit than I am. :)


...If just ONE sale gets completed out of 50 because of the ability to bring an item to the visual front of the line then so friggin be it. It does not degrade nor demean the purpose of the forum one iota.I disagree. The very existence of a For Sale / Want to Buy category has, in my opinion, degraded this forum's essential non-commercial nature from the start. However, it doesn't matter what you or I think. The only thing that counts is what Tuan decides. I'm willing to put up with the category in exchange for a free forum and suggest that everyone else paying nothing for the privilege of being here stop complaining or start their own forum.

Sal Santamaura
25-Mar-2015, 20:45
...When you are selling, exposure is everything...This is not a sales venue. Those exist elsewhere. If selling is one's purpose for being here, they haven't grasped the value of this forum.


...Surely at least some of the moderators have real sales experience and understand that concept...Sales facilitation is not the moderators' job.


...Don't mess up what is a very good working system.A system that might be working well for those whose primary purpose is to use this free venue for peddling. Not one that works very well in supporting the forum's primary purpose.

lenser
25-Mar-2015, 21:26
Sal, I beg to differ in the sense that the one segment of the web site is entirely devoted to just that and is therefore titled "For Sale/Wanted". If that did not exist, you would be correct, but since it does, that portion of the forum is entirely devoted to making sales happen in both directions and I therefore completely stand on my statements about exposure being everything in sales.

Sal Santamaura
26-Mar-2015, 07:55
Sal, I beg to differ...No need to beg. :) Everyone is free to express their opinions within the realm of civility. Thanks for being so civil in the face of my minority position.


...one segment of the web site is entirely devoted to just that and is therefore titled "For Sale/Wanted". If that did not exist, you would be correct...First, a review of terms. We're at the largeformatphotography.info Web site. It has a home page


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

with the explicit description


"Non-commercial community of large format photographers, includes a repository of primers, how-to articles, user's reviews of equipment, and an active discussion forum"

right at its top. Just below that is a link to the Question & Answers Forum. Within that forum, one of the 26 categories is "For Sale/Wanted." I stand by my opinion that this (the Large Format Photography . Info Questions & Answers Forum) is not primarily a sales venue. If you review the archive content for discussion about this subject, you'll find that Tuan agreed to allow the ads as an accommodation to members. There's no evidence of any desire to become essentially an "eBay light."


...I therefore completely stand on my statements about exposure being everything in sales.I never disagreed with your observation about what's important in sales. Rather, my position was and remains that sales, especially enabling the repeat exposure that frequent bumping provides, isn't the primary purpose of this Web site. In fact, I believe that the very existence of a For Sale/Wanted category is incompatible with the site's own description.

Ralph Barker
26-Mar-2015, 09:13
Seriously over thought choice to wait a week between bumps. When you are selling, exposure is everything. After a week, an item could be buried 10 or 15 pages down. Three days would be more than enough and in my opinion as a seller, two days would be far more appropriate so as to keep a sale item in front of potential buyers.

Surely at least some of the moderators have real sales experience and understand that concept.

Bad choice guys.

If someone were to be bumping four or five times a day, pull the item from circulation. Don't mess up what is a very good working system.

Frequent bumping may work well for the sellers who bump, but not so well for those who don't and get pushed down in the display queue.

Joe Smigiel
26-Mar-2015, 09:32
Couldn't this viewing issue be resolved via software? I believe APUG runs on similar forum software and IIRC, there are user preference options to limit which forums are actually visible to members. IOW, it would be nice to have the ability to switch off the FS subforum if you didn't want to see it (or the digital hardware forum in my case). But, maybe the APUG version costs more to license and thus needs to have an actual subscription fee to keep afloat.

8x10 user
26-Mar-2015, 10:29
I think it would be helpful if it were possible to edit posts indefinitely in the for sale section. Then one could (without bumping) revise titles, prices, pictures, and the description as more information is found on an item, or if there was an error with the listing. Also this would allow FS items to be marked sold without a bump and in the title; where it can viewed without clicking on the thread and scrolling all the way to the bottom. The LL forum works this way.

It would side-step a lot of issues as to what is considered a bump. Obviously it's important for everyone to have accurate and detailed information on items that are being sold. I dont think it would be good to make someone wait a week if they have new information to include in the listing. Also, it would save the mods a lot of time in checking to see if the new comment is a bump or if the item is being marked sold, Ect.

Just an idea.

Light Guru
26-Mar-2015, 11:56
Bumping is only annoying when the seller has a lot of listings and they bump them all at the same time. Having to go through a page or so of bumps on the new posts feed is a bit annoying.

Old-N-Feeble
26-Mar-2015, 18:07
I find the daily... and sometimes more than once per day... bumps very annoying. IMO, once per week is enough... and I sell items. I almost never sell on forums though... just eBay.

jeroldharter
26-Mar-2015, 20:42
And I think its fine the way it is.


+1

vinny
27-Mar-2015, 06:20
A few bad apples spoiled the whole damn bunch.
Too bad. I wish the offenders could just be warned and that's it w/o making more rules.

BrianShaw
27-Mar-2015, 06:42
A few bad apples spoiled the whole damn bunch.
Too bad. I wish the offenders could just be warned and that's it w/o making more rules.

+1

Ken Lee
27-Mar-2015, 07:20
A few bad apples spoiled the whole damn bunch.
Too bad. I wish the offenders could just be warned and that's it w/o making more rules.

When moderators contact an offender, we need a rule to which we can point.

Having rules allows us to enforce equal justice under the law :cool:

http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/sherrif.jpg

BrianShaw
27-Mar-2015, 07:24
Is that a six-shooter your sporting?

Ralph Barker
27-Mar-2015, 07:27
I think it would be helpful if it were possible to edit posts indefinitely in the for sale section. Then one could (without bumping) revise titles, prices, pictures, and the description as more information is found on an item, or if there was an error with the listing. Also this would allow FS items to be marked sold without a bump and in the title; where it can viewed without clicking on the thread and scrolling all the way to the bottom. The LL forum works this way.

It would side-step a lot of issues as to what is considered a bump. Obviously it's important for everyone to have accurate and detailed information on items that are being sold. I dont think it would be good to make someone wait a week if they have new information to include in the listing. Also, it would save the mods a lot of time in checking to see if the new comment is a bump or if the item is being marked sold, Ect.

Just an idea.

Editing is turned off after a time limit or once there is a reply, whichever occurs first. This prevents the OP from changing "the facts" after others have responded. New, useful information doesn't constitute a "bump" in this regard. A bump is a post made solely for the purpose of moving the thread to the top of the activity stream.


A few bad apples spoiled the whole damn bunch.
Too bad. I wish the offenders could just be warned and that's it w/o making more rules.

Unfortunately, if there is not a rule prohibiting, or providing constraints for something, some feel whatever they want to do is OK.

Personally, and unofficially, I feel that bumping is rude. Why should one seller feel their ad is more important than those of other members?

Corran
27-Mar-2015, 07:30
A week is too long.

There's a lot of issues with the F/S forum and this doesn't fix any of them, IMO. First and foremost being the inability to view that subforum without registration, therefore placing it "off the grid." If the forum were to make the F/S section more friendly to new users and non users looking for LF gear, we wouldn't have to bump so much to find buyers, and we'd also likely have more LF users coming into the fold.

I also think the F/S area should be made it's own subforum. We have "Site Forums," "LF Forums," and "Community." The F/S and Buyer/Seller Advisories should be put in a new subforum itself, and while we're at it the F/S forum can be split into "Large Format F/S," "Small Format F/S," "Want to Buy," and maybe "Digital F/S," which would fix the problem of so many threads in one place, necessitating less bumping for visibility. Of course the final piece of the puzzle is letting users turn off the visibility of that entire subforum if they want.

I know the mods and other folks working "under the hood" of this forum are busy. But that doesn't negate the potential of improving the forum. If they don't want to do any of the above, fine, so please don't respond with "the mods are busy." I'm just throwing out my ideas. I've seen similar / identical systems put in place at other forums to much success.

And lenser is 100% correct about the "visibility" issue. Probably 90% of the messages I get about an item is within 30 minutes of posting or bumping a thread up. Almost no one clicks past the first or second page of threads.

lecarp
27-Mar-2015, 07:37
There is a wtb post up for a darkroom sink right now that has quickly turned into a two page how to build one scenario. This type of information belongs in a DIY section.
I find that far more bothersome than a legit bump on a for sale item.

BrianShaw
27-Mar-2015, 08:07
There is a wtb post up for a darkroom sink right now that has quickly turned into a two page how to build one scenario. This type of information belongs in a DIY section.
I find that far more bothersome than a legit bump on a for sale item.

That, and all the "I only wish I had money right now" or "great price; someone should buy this fast" or "overpriced; seller is trying to rip people off" kinds of posts. I'm ambivalent about the "I like this person so here is a free bump" types of bumps.

lecarp
27-Mar-2015, 08:38
That, and all the "I only wish I had money right now" or "great price; someone should buy this fast" or "overpriced; seller is trying to rip people off" kinds of posts. I'm ambivalent about the "I like this person so here is a free bump" types of bumps.

Agreed!

For sale posts should be made by the seller, questions should be sent and responded to by private message. No other comments necessary.
No clutter, less bandwidth etc.

8x10 user
27-Mar-2015, 11:31
There are different sides and shades of grey in everything. Sometimes third party comments or discussion can be helpful or interesting.

Darin Boville
27-Mar-2015, 13:11
There are different sides and shades of grey in everything. Sometimes third party comments or discussion can be helpful or interesting.

Indeed. I think it strange that a buy/sell forum works in ways contrary to capitalism. The free flow of information is vital to price setting, etc. Yet it is the most constrained part of the LFF in terms of what you can and cannot say! Information is tightly restricted to whatever benefits the seller.

But we've already had this debate. I lost. That's o.k. :)

--Darin

Old-N-Feeble
27-Mar-2015, 13:28
If a certain entities are given free unrestrained unlimited television advertising then they'll completely take over the network selling their wares. There will be no useful enjoyable entertainment.

Randy Moe
27-Mar-2015, 13:49
I notice a few things, even in my dotage.

I notice when some of us 'give a bump or affirmation' to a sale here, it suddenly sells. Is that bad?

As a 'High Poster' and 'Reader' of much here, I have noticed my influence has increased some sales. :)

I think some here want people like me to shut up and leave the forum to their voice. :(

The sales part of this forum is very useful in education, promoting LF in general and provides sellers, some of whom will not use eBay, a way to sell 'bargains' to newbies or acquisitive members like me.

A few vocal members would prefer only they are heard and the rest of us 'research silently in the background' while they offer 'expert' advice as they see fit. Baloney.

A stilted conversation and a limited public forum would be the result of further restrictions to a free exchange of on topic, off topic, drifting topic and equipment sales.

Old-N-Feeble
27-Mar-2015, 13:56
There can nearly always be 'too much of a good thing'.

sun of sand
15-Jun-2015, 11:26
I guess it was broken or became more brokener as now it seems 3 days is far too generous and regarding mods having better things to do and all they certainly can tell 6 days from 7 but gets screwy once you have to decide whether chicken or egg came first
in that instance its always easiest just to delete

You'd think in terms of keeping a friendly non confrontational spirit around a forum you'd let 6 days pass for 7 or at most send a pm to please keep it to a minimum of 7 days prior to bumping

Eh
You're right
Let's just delete
Easier

StoneNYC
15-Jun-2015, 14:58
I guess it was broken or became more brokener as now it seems 3 days is far too generous and regarding mods having better things to do and all they certainly can tell 6 days from 7 but gets screwy once you have to decide whether chicken or egg came first
in that instance its always easiest just to delete

You'd think in terms of keeping a friendly non confrontational spirit around a forum you'd let 6 days pass for 7 or at most send a pm to please keep it to a minimum of 7 days prior to bumping

Eh
You're right
Let's just delete
Easier

We can all count on a calendar, I'm happy with the new bumping rules, and I'm selling a lot of stuff right now, I would love to bump more but I also see the value in waiting and not clogging the feed.

I'm really liking the new deleting moderation, it's actually much less confrontational and seems to be shaping the forum into a much nicer place than it had been over the past year.

Just say "whoops, I goofed up the date, hah!" to yourself, and bump it tomorrow. No big deal.

Old-N-Feeble
15-Jun-2015, 15:03
I don't sell much on forums anymore, preferring eBay. However, I think the new anti-bumping feature is a good one.

Wayne
15-Jun-2015, 16:22
A


We can all count on a calendar,



Some better than others. :)


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?122755-FS-quot-Pistol-Trigger-quot-Shutter-Release-cable
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?122751-FS-Polaroid-SX-70-silver-and-black-with-auto-focus
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?122754-FS-Old-620-film-quot-lomo-quot

StoneNYC
15-Jun-2015, 16:30
A





Some better than others. :)


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?122755-FS-quot-Pistol-Trigger-quot-Shutter-Release-cable
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?122751-FS-Polaroid-SX-70-silver-and-black-with-auto-focus
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?122754-FS-Old-620-film-quot-lomo-quot

Haha! Whoops! Guess I'm a goof!

Well two of those are sold and won't be bumped again, only the cable shutter trigger is still available.

If those has been flagged I would not have been mad, I looked at 1 and saw that it was 7 and said "oh 7" haha!

The sad part is that you took the time to look through probably 10 or so FS threads to find those 3 haha, you really have some time on your hands.

Mistakes happen, let's not get all crazy over it.

Jac@stafford.net
15-Jun-2015, 16:36
I do not know if it is possible, but offering a display of FS based upon the number of views might be helpful.
The most views float to the top.

'Bay has that option.

Dunno. I'm no expert.

Oren Grad
15-Jun-2015, 16:47
I do not know if it is possible, but offering a display of FS based upon the number of views might be helpful.
The most views float to the top.

'Bay has that option.

Dunno. I'm no expert.

You can do that for yourself by clicking on "views" at the top of that column. You will find that the top of the list ordered in that way is dominated by old threads.

Taija71A
15-Jun-2015, 17:04
... to look through probably '10' or so FS threads to find those 3...

Perhaps the Mods will eventually need to consider...

If Sellers should be Limited to the number of FS/Wanted listings that can be 'bumped'
(Or 'dare I say'... Even Listed) -- At any one time?

This too, might help with the 'Clogging'... That we are still seeing at present.
Like they say... 'Just a suggestion!' ;)

StoneNYC
15-Jun-2015, 17:39
Perhaps the Mods will eventually need to consider...

If Sellers should be Limited to the number of FS/Wanted listings that can be 'bumped'
(Or 'dare I say'... Even Listed) -- At any one time?

This too, might help with the 'Clogging'... That we are still seeing at present.
Like they say... 'Just a suggestion!' ;)

I don't disagree per-se, however people as a whole tend to go through "purging" phases, where they are either "spring cleaning" or "getting out of a format" or "too old for x format" and sell a bunch of stuff all at once.

I'm sure if there's a constant pattern of always selling lots of stuff all year long that might be addressed to an individual.

I think their main issue in the sales forum that they are currently working out, is how to address abuse by vendors buying and selling in the FS section and misrepresenting themselves as individuals in order to take advantage of the sales area for business profit, particularly members who don't actually shoot LF (or possibly any format) and who are only here to brows and profit financially, of which I can name at least 4 off the top of my head that I know of.

Old-N-Feeble
15-Jun-2015, 17:46
Like who?

Taija71A
15-Jun-2015, 18:02
I don't disagree... .......... ... that I know of.

No problem...
Very 'Well-stated!' :)


"A problem well-stated... Is a problem half-solved."
~~ Charles Kettering. ~~

Corran
15-Jun-2015, 18:08
Is it necessary, if you are selling multiple items, to make multiple FS ads? Why don't you group everything in one ad?

Sometimes that can get less eyes on a certain item perhaps, but, it works well otherwise I think.

StoneNYC
15-Jun-2015, 18:39
Is it necessary, if you are selling multiple items, to make multiple FS ads? Why don't you group everything in one ad?

Sometimes that can get less eyes on a certain item perhaps, but, it works well otherwise I think.


I agree, I think it depends though what it is.

Like I was selling 8x10 film holders, and a 127 camera system, and a 116/70mm system, and that trigger.

So maybe I could have grouped the 127 and 116/70mm together, that might make sense, but the trigger and 8x10 holders don't fit together.

Likewise if I were selling a few lenses, I could sell those altogether, if they were 4x5 types, but I wouldn't sell a 35" RD Artar and a 90mm SA in the same thread because completely different camera format owners would be interested in one over the other.

So I agree, some should be lumped together, but many people skim for what they are seeking and don't go beyond the title, so being able to list info in the title for important items is also important.

I guess I can see both arguments.



Like who?

Asking to be outed? That's on you buddy.

Joe Smigiel
15-Jun-2015, 18:39
Is it necessary, if you are selling multiple items, to make multiple FS ads? Why don't you group everything in one ad?

Sometimes that can get less eyes on a certain item perhaps, but, it works well otherwise I think.

But if items out of a large list sell and the seller wants to update the status, this is in effect a bump for everything else remaining. Or, the seller decides to lower a price on something and thus bumps everything again.

Better IMO to list items individually unless they are system items related to the main item for sale.

axs810
15-Jun-2015, 18:52
Bumping is only annoying when the seller has a lot of listings and they bump them all at the same time. Having to go through a page or so of bumps on the new posts feed is a bit annoying.

I apologize to everyone for being one of these "annoying bumpers" but in all fairness out of all the forums I frequent that's normally how it's done. Plus a lot of the other forums I'm on do implement a 3 day bump (I'm not talking about APUG either)


I actually think we could have less clutter and less bumping if we make separate types of classifieds sections. For example:
1) One for cameras
2) Another for camera accessories (lenses, lensboards, shades, filters, film holders,etc)
3) Darkroom related materials
4) Misc section for anything goes


It would add more bulk to the forum but I think less people would be bumping threads if it were like that because I know I bump my threads when it seems like its gone so far back that some people might mistake it for being sold without even clicking on the thread.

Wayne
15-Jun-2015, 18:54
I didn't "look for" anything. I saw them when I was browsing ads last week.






The sad part is that you took the time to look through probably 10 or so FS threads to find those 3 haha, you really have some time on your hands.

Mistakes happen, let's not get all crazy over it.

StoneNYC
15-Jun-2015, 19:15
I apologize to everyone for being one of these "annoying bumpers" but in all fairness out of all the forums I frequent that's normally how it's done. Plus a lot of the other forums I'm on do implement a 3 day bump (I'm not talking about APUG either)


I actually think we could have less clutter and less bumping if we make separate types of classifieds sections. For example:
1) One for cameras
2) Another for camera accessories (lenses, lensboards, shades, filters, film holders,etc)
3) Darkroom related materials
4) Misc section for anything goes


It would add more bulk to the forum but I think less people would be bumping threads if it were like that because I know I bump my threads when it seems like its gone so far back that some people might mistake it for being sold without even clicking on the thread.

I actually agree with that idea, separate areas, though I do remember ULF'ers discussing wanting a ULF area for lenses because often those individuals might frequent less often and be very specific about their needs for coverage / FL / "optical signature" in their work, and have a hard time sifting through the "tiny" offerings in most of the FS area.

I tend to agree it would be useful, but I think management nixed that, I didn't agree entirely but one point made by someone that made sense is that the separation might promote more of a "buyer/seller environment" and less of a community environment, and only cause an influx of dealers coming in, so I can see that being an issue.

I still personally would appreciate a lens section in particular, and having a "other than LF" lenses, LF lenses, and ULF Lenses sectioned off would make life easier. The only people who benefit from a clump of everything are "collectors" and hoarders, real users are often very specific in their needs and could go right to their section and scroll through.

This would also make bumping less of a nuisance.

But that's opinion, and I think the mods have a good idea about what works and what doesn't. But it doesn't hurt to ask.

Taija71A
15-Jun-2015, 19:20
But that's opinion, and I think the moss have a good idea about what works and what doesn't.

Remember, that...

“Travel and society polish one...
But a rolling stone gathers no moss and a little moss is a good thing on a man.”

~~ John Burroughs. ~~

Corran
15-Jun-2015, 19:29
Yes I've constantly said several FS subforums for different types of items would be great.

Old-N-Feeble
15-Jun-2015, 19:31
<snip>
Asking to be outed? That's on you buddy.

I'm asking for nothing but if you want to continue this nonsense then go for it. Your little veiled jabs are obvious.

axs810
15-Jun-2015, 19:47
Perhaps the moderators could make a poll thread to see what the whole community would want in regards to FS subforums?

Wayne
15-Jun-2015, 19:59
The whole community doesn't have to moderate it


Perhaps the moderators could make a poll thread to see what the whole community would want in regards to FS subforums?

BrianShaw
16-Jun-2015, 06:43
I don't want to vote in a poll, but my vote is for sale... to the highest bidder!

BrianShaw
16-Jun-2015, 06:44
I don't want to vote in a poll, but my vote is for sale... to the highest bidder!

Bump

Ralph Barker
16-Jun-2015, 08:03
I don't want to vote in a poll, but my vote is for sale... to the highest bidder!

Auctions are not allowed. ;-)

Taija71A
16-Jun-2015, 08:05
Auctions are not allowed. ;-)

Hey you! This isn't Burger King around here...

You can no longer... Always "Have It Your Way!" ;)

Sirius Glass
16-Jun-2015, 08:57
Basically there is not a problem with bumping here, however adding sections such as

1) LF cameras
2) Other cameras
3) Lenses with focal length, f/number, coverage
4) Accessories (lensboards, shades, filters, film holders,etc)
5) Darkroom materials
6) Miscellaneous
would be a great help.

Sal Santamaura
16-Jun-2015, 09:11
...adding sections such as...would be a great help.A great help for/to what, Steve? The FS/Wanted category, even with recently added bumping restrictions, is already an annoying commercial intrusion into the LF forum. Breaking it into further sub-sub-categories would merely compound that degradation.

In my opinion, the only positive change that could be made to the "classifieds" here would be deleting them completely.

StoneNYC
16-Jun-2015, 09:57
A great help for/to what, Steve? The FS/Wanted category, even with recently added bumping restrictions, is already an annoying commercial intrusion into the LF forum. Breaking it into further sub-sub-categories would merely compound that degradation.

In my opinion, the only positive change that could be made to the "classifieds" here would be deleting them completely.

Like I did mention, that could increase the commercialization factor, however, you probably have all the equipment you need, not everyone does, so it's helpful to have it here.

I also personally feel good about passing on my items to fellow photographers I have some connection with, instead of shipping them off to unknown people on eBay.

I usually agree with what you say, but I know you're coming from a place where you aren't in search of gear. If you shot with a 16x20 camera and needed a lens, it's not exactly like eBay would have hundreds, but if you post a WTB here, someone might see it and say "ya know, I haven't used this lens in so long, why not, I'll sell it, at least I know it will be used because X-user is a good Photographer I've seen his stuff".

I wouldn't have been able to pick up my recent lens (the last one I needed for my kit) had it not been for the for sale area, who knows when another one might have popped up on eBay...

I was able to drive out and pick up the lens in person, the guy is someone I've met before and he might even be coming to a gathering on the 28th to introduce him to others. Got to see his beautiful 11x14 deardorff and RD Artar portrait lens in his apartment too.

Probably wouldn't have happened on eBay.

Preston
16-Jun-2015, 10:34
I have purchased a few items from members here, and received help when I needed some oddball widget. I haven't offered anything for sale, but I would rather sell here than FleaBay or Craig's List. At least to me, our For Sale forum is a nice resource that I hope will remain.

--P

djdister
16-Jun-2015, 10:55
The "For Sale/Wanted" section can be very handy - I've bought and sold LF gear this way, and the "reliability" factor of buyers and sellers is so much higher than Craigslist or the bay. If you don't want to be bothered with the For Sale traffic, there are several ways to avoid it on the forum.

Sirius Glass
16-Jun-2015, 16:46
A great help for/to what, Steve? The FS/Wanted category, even with recently added bumping restrictions, is already an annoying commercial intrusion into the LF forum. Breaking it into further sub-sub-categories would merely compound that degradation.

In my opinion, the only positive change that could be made to the "classifieds" here would be deleting them completely.

When I am looking for lenses I would like to see just lenses, as an example. I fail to see how that would increase commercial intrusion.

We can fight commercial intrusion by utilizing the triangular button and complaining about offenders.

StoneNYC
16-Jun-2015, 16:59
When I am looking for lenses I would like to see just lenses, as an example. I fail to see how that would increase commercial intrusion.

We can fight commercial intrusion by utilizing the triangular button and complaining about offenders.

The problem is they (mods) are still undecided about what to do with those who are suspect of being commercial enterprises yet don't outright admit to it, either by being in denial about it, or because they aren't about to 'out' themselves and cut into their own business.

AFAIK they are still discussing how to handle the current violators.

I suppose a way to handle "bumping" by others is to limit FS/WTB commenting to ONLY the OP, then the only bumps would be price drops and additional images and actual bumps, but no chatter from the peanut gallery.

That I would support in a heartbeat, any questions could be directed to the OP through PM as it's supposed to be anyway, and the OP could also close their own thread when the item is sold and the closed threads could drop off the FS section and be "auto-moved" to the "archived FS/WTB threads" area. People could still research old sales and info posted without bumping an old thread.

Suggestion box mods ^^^

Not sure how much work it would be to make those changes, but it's not a bad idea.

Jac@stafford.net
16-Jun-2015, 17:01
Perhaps there should be a graded fee for using this site.
One of the grades would be whether one could post FS.
I would pay for it, even if I would rarely use it.
.

Wayne
16-Jun-2015, 17:16
I don't understand this sentiment. I think the growth of digital degraded the site far more than the classifieds. However if we can also go back to the old greenspun format I'd consent to giving them up. :)



A great help for/to what, Steve? The FS/Wanted category, even with recently added bumping restrictions, is already an annoying commercial intrusion into the LF forum. Breaking it into further sub-sub-categories would merely compound that degradation.

In my opinion, the only positive change that could be made to the "classifieds" here would be deleting them completely.

Taija71A
16-Jun-2015, 17:38
... but no chatter from the peanut gallery.


... any questions could be directed to the OP through PM as it's supposed to be anyway...

Major Cliché Alert... !!!

StoneNYC
16-Jun-2015, 17:39
Cliché! "The pot calling the kettle black"?

Yup, I've made that mistake in the past, working on getting better, thanks.

But this suggestion would prevent those kinds of mistakes.

Taija71A
16-Jun-2015, 18:05
Yup, I've made that mistake in the past, working on getting better, thanks.

No problem. Likewise...
Thanks!

"I know I am getting better at golf... Because I am hitting fewer spectators."
~~ Gerald R. Ford. ~~

Sirius Glass
16-Jun-2015, 18:50
I don't understand this sentiment. I think the growth of digital degraded the site far more than the classifieds. However if we can also go back to the old greenspun format I'd consent to giving them up. :)

+1

adelorenzo
16-Jun-2015, 21:25
I like the "peanut gallery" in sale threads. Makes it seem less commercial to me, more like a community of people with a shared interest. The kind of banter you would hear standing around a seller's table at a camera swap. If you were selling something at a camera fair and I came up and said "Wow, that's a heck of a deal" would you tell me to STFU?

Plus, people often have good information to add about an item.

Randy Moe
16-Jun-2015, 21:45
I like the "peanut gallery" in sale threads. Makes it seem less commercial to me, more like a community of people with a shared interest. The kind of banter you would hear standing around a seller's table at a camera swap. If you were selling something at a camera fair and I came up and said "Wow, that's a heck of a deal" would you tell me to STFU?

Plus, people often have good information to add about an item.

You have wisely written. :)

+10

StoneNYC
16-Jun-2015, 23:08
I like the "peanut gallery" in sale threads. Makes it seem less commercial to me, more like a community of people with a shared interest. The kind of banter you would hear standing around a seller's table at a camera swap. If you were selling something at a camera fair and I came up and said "Wow, that's a heck of a deal" would you tell me to STFU?

Plus, people often have good information to add about an item.

I see your point, but this isn't the real world, if this were the real world, those who tend to antagonize and are mean, wouldn't be, because they would at most, tend to have more respect because their actual reputation would be at stake, and at the least fear physical reprisal (a sock to the jaw) for being an ass-hat.

In the same right, in the real world, if someone had something for sale at a table, and two others were looking at the item, one could say "I like this" and the other could say "I wouldn't buy from this guy, he's a swindler" but in this forum, only positive posts are allowed on FS posts, but negatives are removed, which only leads to a severe misrepresentation.

So it's not really like we're all around a seller's table.

In the same right, the op who's selling, could receive a PM with additional info, and the OP could chose to add that info, or not.

Fred L
17-Jun-2015, 06:21
fwiw, and as someone who tends to buy more than sell here, I prefer that we just stick to the single FS: forum. I liken it to a garage sale. You may be looking something in particular but lo and behold, you see something you simply have to have. If we had sub forums, then chances are we might not come across that one item we never knew we needed, until now ;) I also like to browse all the tables at camera shows...just in case

and +1 for the peanut gallery as long as it isn't slagging the OP's ad.

Old-N-Feeble
17-Jun-2015, 06:44
I think one FS forum is plenty for the mods to deal with.

Michael R
17-Jun-2015, 08:09
I think unless you make darkroom prints you should be using a digital camera/back, and only be allowed to bump digital equipment threads in the classifieds, and only every 8 days, except statutory holidays and Hawaii, unless otherwise noted or Rodinal semi-stand.

StoneNYC
17-Jun-2015, 09:31
fwiw, and as someone who tends to buy more than sell here, I prefer that we just stick to the single FS: forum. I liken it to a garage sale. You may be looking something in particular but lo and behold, you see something you simply have to have. If we had sub forums, then chances are we might not come across that one item we never knew we needed, until now ;) I also like to browse all the tables at camera shows...just in case

and +1 for the peanut gallery as long as it isn't slagging the OP's ad.

I think it would be nice to have both, an overall view of "all for sale" but also be able to view selected separate groupings for ULF lenses vs LF lenses, vs Tiny format lenses etc. So those who want to brows can do so, but those looking for specifics can also do so.


I think unless you make darkroom prints you should be using a digital camera/back, and only be allowed to bump digital equipment threads in the classifieds, and only every 8 days, except statutory holidays and Hawaii, unless otherwise noted or Rodinal semi-stand.

*snicker* that will only make all the vendors shift their supplies to digital...

Would cut down heavily on what's sold here though ;)

Sal Santamaura
17-Jun-2015, 10:01
...go back to the old greenspun format...Make this


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?do=getdaily&days=30

your forum bookmark and you will have effectively turned back the clock. That's how I view the forum. Functionally equivalent to when I first visited under Phillip Greenspun's lusenet system in 1999. :)

Wayne
17-Jun-2015, 10:35
That also explains why you aren't happy with the lounge and the classifieds. This is how see the forum (not sure if the link will work for you though), and I don't see either of those or the digital forums unless I want to

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?&do=getnew&exclude=7,17,21,27&sortby=forum



Make this


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?do=getdaily&days=30

your forum bookmark and you will have effectively turned back the clock. That's how I view the forum. Functionally equivalent to when I first visited under Phillip Greenspun's lusenet system in 1999. :)

Sal Santamaura
17-Jun-2015, 10:44
...This is how see the forum (not sure if the link will work for you though)...It functions fine, but doesn't "work" for me because I want to see everything that's posted. Despite wishing the Classifieds and Lounge didn't exist, I am interested in and regularly read threads/posts in the digital categories.

My underlying point is that this forum's character as a community ought be collegial, non-commercial and on-topic. One should not need to exclude categories to make it so.

adelorenzo
17-Jun-2015, 11:26
My underlying point is that this forum's character as a community ought be collegial, non-commercial and on-topic. One should not need to exclude categories to make it so.

Honest question here, where do you draw the line at non-commercial?

I don't make a dime from photography it's just an expensive hobby for me. However, I consider my hobby to me more than just making photographs, I also really enjoy buying, selling, trading, breaking, fixing and modifying gear. Is that commercial? Am I to be banished to eBay for that? I enjoy buying and selling my gear here specifically because of the collegiality and community.

There are people who share information generously on this forum who have commercial interests in photography whether it be selling equipment or providing various services. Not to mention there are people on here who make a living from (commercial) photography. Is that OK?

Wayne
17-Jun-2015, 13:05
I don't think selling and commercialism are synonymous. There are sellers who have no judgment or restraint, just like there are posters who have no judgment or restraint. But its that behavior that should be moderated, not the entire topic or forum it falls under. OTOH the lounge is by definition a place where you have to expect things to get uglier

It doesn't make any sense to me for someone who dislikes classifieds and the lounge to follow new posts of either one. Its just going to rile you. I don't follow either one. I rarely/never go to the lounge and I only go to classifieds when I feel like shopping. I don't follow digital forums just so I can complain about them. :)



It functions fine, but doesn't "work" for me because I want to see everything that's posted. Despite wishing the Classifieds and Lounge didn't exist, I am interested in and regularly read threads/posts in the digital categories.

My underlying point is that this forum's character as a community ought be collegial, non-commercial and on-topic. One should not need to exclude categories to make it so.

Sirius Glass
17-Jun-2015, 15:20
I like the "peanut gallery" in sale threads. Makes it seem less commercial to me, more like a community of people with a shared interest. The kind of banter you would hear standing around a seller's table at a camera swap. If you were selling something at a camera fair and I came up and said "Wow, that's a heck of a deal" would you tell me to STFU?

Plus, people often have good information to add about an item.

+100

Sal Santamaura
17-Jun-2015, 20:29
...I also really enjoy buying, selling...gear. Is that commercial?...Yup, that's commerce.


...Am I to be banished to eBay for that?...Don't worry, it's not my forum, so the answer is no. If I were in charge, you would indeed do your buying and selling there or at some other commercial venue.


...There are people who share information generously on this forum who have commercial interests in photography whether it be selling equipment or providing various services. Not to mention there are people on here who make a living from (commercial) photography. Is that OK?In my opinion, it's fine as long as they don't conduct business here or fail to make known their affiliations. For example, until recently Bob Salomon worked for HP Marketing. His User ID made that clear.

Sal Santamaura
17-Jun-2015, 20:45
I don't think selling and commercialism are synonymous...But they are, by definition.


...There are sellers who have no judgment or restraint, just like there are posters who have no judgment or restraint. But its that behavior that should be moderated...In my opinion, it's an absolute waste of the moderators' time and energy to impose classified moderation on them. Let venues dedicated to commerce deal with the problems of judgement- and restraint-free sellers.


...the lounge is by definition a place where you have to expect things to get uglier...The Lounge was established so potentially ugly things could be funneled to one place where, presumably, need for moderation would be readily evident. Lately, I've become more and more convinced that it too should be eliminated. Why maintain a location where, even if lines aren't crossed, the near-ugly is always present? What does that add to the forum? How does it make this an inviting place for current and potential large format photographers?


...It doesn't make any sense to me for someone who dislikes classifieds and the lounge to follow new posts of either one. Its just going to rile you...When reading the posts of members, it's valuable to know what their background, activities and attitudes are. If they're constantly conducting business in the classifieds, insight can be gleaned about the reasons for / validity of their opinions posted in other categories. If they're constantly posting inconsequential and/or provocative things in the Lounge, a sense can be gained of how important their posts in the other categories might be.

I'm not riled. This is a thread in the Feedback category and I'm simply providing feedback to the forum's owner and moderators.

Corran
17-Jun-2015, 21:15
Buying and selling things casually is not anywhere close to a "dealer" that keeps inventory and sells hundreds of items a year as a major part of their income. I think the spirit of the rule lies in that definition of "dealer" and you are equating someone who, say, finds a Speed Graphic at a yard sale for $10 and sells it here for $100 as the same thing.

Is there anyone else on this forum who wants to get rid of the Classifieds? I have to say, if you think that way, I do wish the programmers could setup a custom blocking command that lets users block certain subfora so the rest of us can enjoy the added benefit of finding LF and other photography equipment here without the constant complaints. Realistically, if you don't buy/sell, it doesn't effect you, other than seeing it in the weird combined thread list posted. It's not 1999 anymore :).

Old-N-Feeble
17-Jun-2015, 21:19
I've seen other forums with an 'Ignore Thread' option in the 'Thread Tools' drop-down menu.

axs810
17-Jun-2015, 21:24
I wonder if there is a way to set up the forums so one would have to pay to be apart of or use the BST section.


Honestly I'd prefer not to have to pay because I like how it is now, but if it's problematic to some that seems like a happy medium. I would much rather buy from users on this forum than eBay or somewhere similar because when people describe the item they are selling on here they are pretty honest unlike ebay sellers just trying to sell you something without really knowing what it is or telling you what is broken....

Corran
17-Jun-2015, 21:28
Out of curiosity, I was looking around, and there's a "Forum Tools" drop-down menu.

In that menu there is a setting to "Subscribe to Forum." I haven't tried it, but maybe, if you were to subscribe to the forums you wanted to look at only, you could then use your usercp page under "Settings" to see a conglomerated thread view similar to the "Unified View" in the upper left. All threads I have replied to are automatically added to that view so I can look at and/or respond to subsequent posts.

jcoldslabs
17-Jun-2015, 23:02
I use the "Subscribe to Thread" function for just about all the active image-sharing threads, and the first thing I do after logging in is click on "Settings" which shows only subscribed threads. This is great for when I just want to see the "meat" of the forum--which for me is images--and skip the rest.

J.

Sal Santamaura
18-Jun-2015, 07:49
...Is there anyone else on this forum who wants to get rid of the Classifieds?...You didn't quote me Bryan, but, since you posted immediately after I did, let's assume you're directing that question to me.

This is the Feedback category. In it, we are invited to provide our input about the forum. It makes absolutely no difference to me whether anyone else shares my opinion on this subject. When a "Feedback" thread concerning the classifieds is started, I post relevant input from my perspective. History reveals that holding a small minority opinion is no reliable predictor of being incorrect. :)


...I have to say, if you think that way, I do wish the programmers could setup a custom blocking command that lets users block certain subfora so the rest of us can enjoy the added benefit of finding LF and other photography equipment here without the constant complaints...You wrote that as part of post #101 and my disinterest in category blocking was spelled out just one post prior (#100). To wit:


...When reading the posts of members, it's valuable to know what their background, activities and attitudes are. If they're constantly conducting business in the classifieds, insight can be gleaned about the reasons for / validity of their opinions posted in other categories...There's been no change in my thinking since post #100.


...enjoy the added benefit of finding LF and other photography equipment here without the constant complaints...Please explain how you define "constant." I, like other members, offer my opinion when appropriate "Feedback" category threads arise. That's by no stretch of the imagination "constant." It's certainly far, far less frequent than the virtually continuous stream of FS/Wanted threads. I'd speculate it's at least two, and perhaps three, orders of magnitude less frequent.


...Realistically, if you don't buy/sell, it doesn't effect you...Indeed, only a certain act by my parents roughly nine months before my birth can be credited with causing me. :)


...It's not 1999 anymore...Alas.

Corran
18-Jun-2015, 08:46
Perhaps I am overestimating. But it seems like I've seen you asking for the elimination of the Classified subforum many times.

Old-N-Feeble
18-Jun-2015, 08:53
I wouldn't miss the classified ads section but I see no reason to deny others of its use. I seldom look at it and never advertise in it. I have responded to a few want ads if I see them in the "New Posts" list but never peruse the ads. I usually get better results on eBay anyway even with the fees. At any rate, eBay offers excellent protection for buyers that simply cannot be done on a forum. YMMV...

Jordan
18-Jun-2015, 14:12
I agree. I mean this hobby, art practice, etc. is heavily reliant on gear. I always find it strange when people who are into it, don't get psyched up on gear. I go to the "For Sale" section usually first.


I like the "peanut gallery" in sale threads. Makes it seem less commercial to me, more like a community of people with a shared interest. The kind of banter you would hear standing around a seller's table at a camera swap. If you were selling something at a camera fair and I came up and said "Wow, that's a heck of a deal" would you tell me to STFU?

Plus, people often have good information to add about an item.

BrianShaw
18-Jun-2015, 14:30
Perhaps I am overestimating. But it seems like I've seen you asking for the elimination of the Classified subforum many times.

Sal very consistently hums that tune. He is unwavering in his conviction, but seems to be a minority opinion no matter how many times he repeats himself. But I'm impressed at his persistence and dedication.

goamules
18-Jun-2015, 14:39
A few years ago, when building my photography kits, I went to the Classifieds a lot. Both to buy and sell excess. Back then, when I went to look for something, it was frustrating to realize page one was always filled with daily/weekly bumps for items obviously not selling. The new rule stopped all that.

Today, with my kits complete, and not being as interested in trying new items anymore, I seldom even notice there IS a Classifieds section. I mean, if I don't click into it, I don't see it.

What was the problem again?

ghostcount
18-Jun-2015, 15:06
A few years ago, when building my photography kits, I went to the Classifieds a lot. Both to buy and sell excess. Back then, when I went to look for something, it was frustrating to realize page one was always filled with daily/weekly bumps for items obviously not selling. The new rule stopped all that.

Today, with my kits complete, and not being as interested in trying new items anymore, I seldom even notice there IS a Classifieds section. I mean, if I don't click into it, I don't see it.

What was the problem again?

Awesome! That's a T-shirt in the making.:cool:

135644

Sal Santamaura
18-Jun-2015, 16:07
Sal very consistently hums that tune...No more consistently than other members ask for changes/"improvements" to the 'classifieds.' My posts are just more memorable because they're contrary to mainstream opinion.

goamules
18-Jun-2015, 16:31
Being a contrarian doesn't work if everyone set's you to ignore though.

rdenney
18-Jun-2015, 16:54
No more consistently than other members ask for changes/"improvements" to the 'classifieds.' My posts are just more memorable because they're contrary to mainstream opinion.

And because they are so carefully constructed and written, even when we don't act on them.

The mods are still hashing this out, and trying to work through some standing issues to reach a consensus. We'll get there. However it turns out, it will please some and annoy others. Hopefully, more of the former than the latter, though Sal is most likely still going to be in the minority.

Rick "there is no one right answer, but there are wrong ones" Denney

Sal Santamaura
18-Jun-2015, 17:03
Being a contrarian doesn't work if everyone set's [sic] you to ignore though.That would be the ignorers' loss. However, as long as the moderators read my feedback posts, I'm happy. :)


And because they are so carefully constructed and written, even when we don't act on them...Aw shucks Rick, thanks.

Two23
19-Jun-2015, 19:14
In my opinion, the only positive change that could be made to the "classifieds" here would be deleting them completely.



Huh? I've bought some nice stuff here from great people. I see the classifieds as not only a great place of exchange, but also have learned quite a bit from the additional posts that often show up, and have made a few friends during sales. There are a few forums here I have no interest in, and simply don't click on them. I don't try to impinge on others' using/enjoying them. I'll admit I'm more of a practical Midwesterner than a purist. As for dividing the classifieds into classifications, I don't know. It would be more efficient, but OTOH I've been known to spot something I didn't know I wanted when I was looking for something else. Something to be said for serendipity!


Kent in SD

Sal Santamaura
20-Jun-2015, 08:39
...you probably have all the equipment you need...Like most everyone else, my "need" for equipment is vastly less than what one might desire. That particular "n" word is regularly abused in first world countries, to the detriment of us all.


...not everyone does, so it's helpful to have it here..."Helpful," "appropriate" and "optimum" are not synonyms. :) All photographic items I possess were obtained over the years via venues of commerce other than this forum. Doing so wasn't particularly challenging.


...I also personally feel good about passing on my items to fellow photographers I have some connection with, instead of shipping them off to unknown people on eBay...Most of my equipment was purchased brand new. I bought some of it, exclusively unique items long discontinued, used. In a majority of cases, those transactions, although occurring through eBay, were with well-known members of this forum. Engaging in that commerce through a commercial auction Web site in no way impeded our ability to be active members of this (then) non-commercial forum community. It's not hard to determine who's who. Those whose posts here earn them a reputation for knowledge and integrity can be counted upon to behave similarly as eBay buyers or sellers. And, unlike here, if any aspect of an eBay transaction goes bad, there are protocols/procedures there to facilitate resolution. No need to burden the forum moderators who, despite disclaimers in the "classifieds," do get dragged into disputes.

I thought this thread had run its course. However, a new post this morning prompted re-reading the entire thing, and thus discovering that one post directed toward me was still unanswered. Oversight corrected. :)

StoneNYC
20-Jun-2015, 09:07
Like most everyone else, my "need" for equipment is vastly less than what one might desire. That particular "n" word is regularly abused in first world countries, to the detriment of us all.

"Helpful," "appropriate" and "optimum" are not synonyms. :) All photographic items I possess were obtained over the years via venues of commerce other than this forum. Doing so wasn't particularly challenging.

Most of my equipment was purchased brand new. I bought some of it, exclusively unique items long discontinued, used. In a majority of cases, those transactions, although occurring through eBay, were with well-known members of this forum. Engaging in that commerce through a commercial auction Web site in no way impeded our ability to be active members of this (then) non-commercial forum community. It's not hard to determine who's who. Those whose posts here earn them a reputation for knowledge and integrity can be counted upon to behave similarly as eBay buyers or sellers. And, unlike here, if any aspect of an eBay transaction goes bad, there are protocols/procedures there to facilitate resolution. No need to burden the forum moderators who, despite disclaimers in the "classifieds," do get dragged into disputes.

I thought this thread had run its course. However, a new post this morning prompted re-reading the entire thing, and thus discovering that one post directed toward me was still unanswered. Oversight corrected. :)

:)

Sal, as they say "The Times they are a-changin' " and you can no longer buy most lenses new, so although I hear your point, the landscape of LF commerce has changed, which facilitates the NEED for other venues of commerce such as the buy/sell area of this forum.

So although your point might have been valid, your perspective and your life's lessons wouldn't be possible in today's market (the buying new from the store part).

I do agree, desire and need are different.

I would say that, in order to have a proper kit for my working choices, that it was helpful to have the forum as a place to purchase most of my lens lineup. My perspective of "need" was to fulfill my chosen lineup so that when shooting, I did not feel limited in my FL options.

Now that my lens lineup for 8x10 is complete, I no longer NEED any other lenses.

When choosing lenses I was careful to choose ones that would translate to other formats, so my 8x10 lineup covers both 4x5 up to 14x17, so even for my other formats I don't NEED any more lenses, but if a good deal comes up for a lens I might take advantage of for my non-professional "fun needs" as in my ULF work, which would include 30" and 35" artar lenses in shutter and possibly some large brass, I would purchase those if they were at "deal" prices. Lucky for me the artar prices seem to have been coming down recently, a few 30" and 35" in shutter sold for under $400 on eBay recently. So when my debt for my "needed" lens 8x10 lineup is paid off, I might snag one of those.

Again, without this forum, I wouldn't have even half of my lineup, so the usefulness of it for me is clear.

Sal we generally agree on most stuff, so I hope you hear that I'm not saying that you're "wrong" I'm saying that your perspective comes from a time when you were actually able to purchase lenses new, and unfortunately that's not the case anymore.

A sad state of affairs...

Sal Santamaura
20-Jun-2015, 09:37
...you can no longer buy most lenses new...your perspective comes from a time when you were actually able to purchase lenses new, and unfortunately that's not the case anymore...It was perhaps a mistake to include the comment about most of my equipment being purchased new. That wasn't the point.

The point was that, irrespective of what percentage of my equipment purchases were brand new items, those purchased used were bought through eBay. It doesn't matter what "previously owned" (to invoke an auto industry euphemism) photographic gear one seeks, commerce belongs at a commercial venue, not here. In my opinion. Regardless of any reduced new large format lens availability.

By the way, at the risk of perpetuating a confusing tangent, if anyone's interested, there are still quite a few large format lenses listed as available new. For example:


http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/category&path=3_30

Joe Smigiel
20-Jun-2015, 12:21
This annoying thread about bumping is now 12 pages long. Forgive me for bumping it again. The moderators must surely be aware of the various positions now and as the previous 2 deleted posts indicate, perhaps they are wasting much more time than they should policing a thread that served its purpose some 4 years ago and 10 pages back.

Old-N-Feeble
20-Jun-2015, 12:23
I've decided that Sal is right... dump the classifieds forum. Both buyers and sellers have far better protections on eBay and the mods don't need the constant headaches.

BrianShaw
20-Jun-2015, 15:21
Yawn


Bump

Jac@stafford.net
20-Jun-2015, 15:28
I've decided that Sal is right... dump the classifieds forum. Both buyers and sellers have far better protections on eBay and the mods don't need the constant headaches.

Perhaps that is true now, but there is virtue in building this forum as a peer-trusted site. That is how revolutions build.
.

HMG
20-Jun-2015, 18:36
Dumping the classifieds is a great idea. Let's make it more difficult for those starting out find affordable LF gear. The more barriers we create, the more film they'll buy, right?

All because of some annoying bumping? Let's use a scapel here, not an axe.

Sirius Glass
20-Jun-2015, 19:17
Dumping the classifieds is a great idea. Let's make it more difficult for those starting out find affordable LF gear. The more barriers we create, the more film they'll buy, right?

All because of some annoying bumping? Let's use a scapel here, not an axe.

I agree. I have bought and sold a few items on the Classifieds here. It makes the website more valuable. Unfortunately www.graflex.org does not have a Classified section. If they had one, it would be easier to find some Graflex and Graphic equipment and parts. I hate competing with Obi Wan Wannta Be's when I want to by Graphic flashguns on EvilBay.

Michael R
21-Jun-2015, 07:57
Sal, I think that listing is outdated. If I remember correctly, some time within the last few years Rodenstock stopped making all LF analog taking lenses except for two or three focal lengths. By now the company might have stopped making those too (the company no longer lists any analog LF lenses in their current product offering). It's possible there's still some stock around on either distributor/importer or retailer shelves.

Sal Santamaura
21-Jun-2015, 08:33
...By the way, at the risk of perpetuating a confusing tangent, if anyone's interested, there are still quite a few large format lenses listed as available new. For example:


http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/category&path=3_30


Sal, I think that listing is outdated. If I remember correctly, some time within the last few years Rodenstock stopped making all LF analog taking lenses except for two or three focal lengths. By now the company might have stopped making those too (the company no longer lists any analog LF lenses in their current product offering). It's possible there's still some stock around on either distributor/importer or retailer shelves.Jeff at Badger is a grey market dealer of those lenses. Note that all are annotated "Special Order." Typically, this means Jeff knows of dealers, mostly in Europe, still holding new stock, despite Rodenstock's cessation of production. When someone places an order with Jeff, he purchases the lens from one of those dealers, imports it to the US and resells it to his retail customer. Not long before Jeff deleted a similar page of Fujinon large format lenses, I ordered a brand new 135mm CM-W from him. That's the process he followed when obtaining the lens for me.

I offer no prediction on how much longer the linked Rodenstock lenses will be available new, but they probably are right now.

Michael R
21-Jun-2015, 11:57
Interesting. I knew he did that with Fuji lenses (I almost bought one several months back), but I didn't know he did that with Rodenstock. Thanks for the additional info.

Wayne
21-Jun-2015, 12:00
Interesting. I knew he did that with Fuji lenses (I almost bought one several months back), but I didn't know he did that with Rodenstock. Thanks for the additional info.

If we didn't have classified to bump here we might never know this. :)

StoneNYC
21-Jun-2015, 12:15
Interesting. I knew he did that with Fuji lenses (I almost bought one several months back), but I didn't know he did that with Rodenstock. Thanks for the additional info.

Yea I wish he could have found me a 600 C for the original price which was much LESS than the used price... Sheesh! Haha

Sal Santamaura
21-Jun-2015, 15:44
Interesting. I knew he did that with Fuji lenses (I almost bought one several months back), but I didn't know he did that with Rodenstock. Thanks for the additional info.You're very welcome.


If we didn't have classified to bump here we might never know this. :)Nah, if Michael was interested in this information, all he'd need to have done was start a thread roughly summarized as "Why does Badger list new Rodenstock lenses when they're no longer in production." I'd have been happy to post an answer. No classifieds necessary. :D