Development with pyrocat hd in jobo cpe2

[Guenther]

Hello all,
I need your help.
I develop Fomapan 100 4x5" in an Jobo cpe2 with rotation level one in pyrocat hd 1:1:100 and the developing was uneven. You can see that in the sky. I developed the positiv a little bit darker that you can see the stripes better.
I develop with an Jobo multitank 2 system 2500.
Filmholder 2509, 400ml developer, time 9 min, temp. 22°C, prewash 5min., stoppbath 1min., fixer 5 min.
What was wrong and what can I do. I have also an tank for stand developing but I didn´t tried it.
Here the pictures for explanation.

I would be happy to get a few messages back

Best regards
Guenther

[vinny]

Increase speed to #4.
You don't need more than a 2-3 min prewash. Someone will chime in and tell you to skip it all together, not me.
Use more developer, 400ml ain't much and 750ml wouldn't cost you much more.
Are you rotating both directions?

[Guenther]

Thank you for your reply vinny,
but I can use only two speeds and the tank volume is I think max. 500ml.
The rotation is in two directions too.
What´s about the developing activity if I use the speed two, I thought the developing activity is very short.

Best regards
Guenther

[patrickjames]

I gave up on pyrocat after using it for many years with rotary development in a Jobo 3010. It seems to aggravate any anomalies in agitation that wouldn't show up with other developers, especially the surge type anomalies that you have in your negs usually around the periphery. It is a great developer but in the end I just didn't think it was worth it. Of course there will be people that will jump on me but I think 7 years of not knowing when a problem is going to show up is enough. The first tank I did with Rodinal after all that time with Pyrocat was perfect. Pyrocat is a great developer though. I still use Pyrocat occasionally with small formats with extremely gentle agitation.

I forgot to add the helpful stuff. Skip the stopbath (just use water) and you didn't say what kind of fix you were using if it wasn't a TF-4 type fix.

[Jay DeFehr]

The only staining developer I'll use with rotary processing is 510-Pyro -- everything else is too problematic, in my experience.

[dasBlute]

Never have any problems with pyrocat-hd, but I use a jobo 3010, with 1000ml of developer, and never pre-wash.

[Peter De Smidt]

Why not PM Sandy King?

[Kirk Gittings]

Not exactly the same method but I use Pyrocat HD in BTZS tubes with constant agitation with no dev. problems EXCEPT Pyrocat oxidizes quickly so it needs to be mixed up right before use-no farting around between mixing and usage. Could your problem be related to exhausted developer (oxidation)?

[vinny]

okay, speed 2 then.
try 750mm or 1 liter. I don't care what the tank says. pyro just has it's quarks.
just do this and see if your results improve.
these threads pop up all the time and I've had issues myself. There aren't issues with too much developer, just too little.

Thank you for your reply vinny,
but I can use only two speeds and the tank volume is I think max. 500ml.
The rotation is in two directions too.
What´s about the developing activity if I use the speed two, I thought the developing activity is very short.

Best regards
Guenther

[sanking]

okay, speed 2 then.
try 750mm or 1 liter. I don't care what the tank says. pyro just has it's quarks.
just do this and see if your results improve.
these threads pop up all the time and I've had issues myself. There aren't issues with too much developer, just too little.

Too little developer solution would also be my take on the problem. An insufficient amount of developer solution with Jobo can cause uneven wetting of the film. This, in combination with a slight delay in beginning agitation, will often cause streaks of the type experienced by the OP.

Regardless of the method of development, developer, or film it is essential to use enough solution and to agitate vigorously at the very beginning of development. Proper agitation for the rest of the development time is also necessary, but the first 10-30 seconds of development is critical.

As an alternative to Jobo consider BTZS type tubes. Initial wetting out of the film is usually instantaneous with BTZS tubes. And the continuous but highly randomized type of agitation you get with BTZS development is also ideal for eliminating streaks in development.

Sandy

[Shen45]

With the CPE2 there is a limit to the amount of liquid the motor will turn in a drum. I believe it is 600 ml. Even that "sounds" a bit like hard work. Don't over load the CPE2 and use it on the fastest setting which from memory is "2".

I process in both BTZS tubes and occasionally my Jobo CPE2+ with the same tank and reels you use. I have no uneven development but I do not pre rinse. The moment the developer has been poured into the tank I shake it very vigorously for at least 5 seconds then put it on the magnetic drive. My tank is not controlled by a lift arm. The shaking is very similar to the initial cocktail shaker action when you begin processing in a BTZS tube and as Sandy has indicated the film is wet almost instantaneously ensuring even development.

One thing - does your reel [2509] have the little black attachments? These apparently help with even development.

I process PMK in my Jobo and BTZS tubes with no problems at all. Just get the developer onto the film as quickly as you can. You will not have problems with staining developers if you get the developer to the film surface in a rapid vigorous manner, actually any developer for that matter. I have used as little as 150 ml in a 2500 series tank with 2 sheets in a 2509n reel with PMK for a normal development time of about 7 minutes. Longer times would be problematic because of oxidation with that small volume of developer. I think maybe I'm fortunate as I get extremely even development, no pre-rinse and minimum developer. Normally 4-6 sheets in 280 ml of non staining developer or 4 sheets in 400 ml of staining developer. Wetting the film quickly and evenly with developer for me is the key. Definitely no pre-rinse.

[Guenther]

Tank you very much for all replies. I think it will help me my development techniques to improve. I´ll try it again.
But for me is not clear when the developer is too old. If I mix the part one and two thank the liquid looks milky and after developing (9-10min.) the liquid is brown.
I mixed the stock of developer 15 month ago with water not with glycol.
Can it be that the developer is oxidized to early during the development?

Best regards
Hans-Guenther

[sanking]

Tank you very much for all replies. I think it will help me my development techniques to improve. I´ll try it again.
But for me is not clear when the developer is too old. If I mix the part one and two thank the liquid looks milky and after developing (9-10min.) the liquid is brown.
I mixed the stock of developer 15 month ago with water not with glycol.
Can it be that the developer is oxidized to early during the development?

Best regards
Hans-Guenther

The working solution should be used within 15-30 minutes of mixing. The color will change from a light beige just after mixing to a deep coffee color in about an hour. If you wait too long to use it the result will be more general stain.

The stock solutions, mixed in water and stored in partially full glass containers, should last for about twelve months. If you plan to use the stock solutions for more than twelve months I would recommend mixing in glycol. You can find information about the Pyrocat variations, with mixing instructions, at the Pyrocat web site. http://www.pyrocat-hd.com/html/mixing.html

Sandy

[Kirk Gittings]

Sandy what do you think the shelf life of stock solutions in Glycol are?

[sanking]

Sandy what do you think the shelf life of stock solutions in Glycol are?

Kirk,

The shelf life of Pyrocat-HD and -HDC mixed in glycol should be at least three years if the solutions are not contaminated. I have a bottle of Pyrocat-HD mixed in glycol that is now five years old and it works perfectly.

Pyrocat Stock A solutions of -HD, -HDC mixed in glycol should remain clear throughout their life. A sudden change in color of the stock solution would be a danger sign that the solution has gone bad, most likely from some type of contamination.

Pyrocat-MC stock solutions mixed in glycol may darken considerably within 6-12 months of mixing but will still work fine for at least two or three years.

For maximum shell life I recommend glass containers.

Sandy

[Guenther]

Hello all,
than you very much for all coments and statements. I ordered propylenclycol yesterday. So I´ll try it again with new developer and more speed with my jobo cpe2
Best regards Guenther

[sanking]

Hello all,
than you very much for all coments and statements. I ordered propylenclycol yesterday. So I´ll try it again with new developer and more speed with my jobo cpe2
Best regards Guenther

Hi Guenther,

IMO the key to more even development is not higher rotation speed. In fact, I usually recommend a moderate or slow rotation with Jobo and other types of continuous rotation in tubes when using staining developers. The key is, 1) beginning development as soon as the developer contacts the film, and 2) some degree of randomizin in agitation by make sure there is change on both the horizontal and vertical axis.

Sandy