Nicest 8x8 Diffusion Scrim ~ C-stand Set-Up?

[Frank Petronio]

I've been looking at these California Sun Bounce things in the catalogs but I am not sure how well built they are? I want a ~ 8-foot square frame to attach white diffusion material, mostly for sunlight on bright days (or a strobe head on not so sunny days) - wondering if any of you with real experience have advice as to what to get and how to rig? I tend to favor the heavier duty Matthews approach but don't know exactly what to get or works best? How many/weight sandbags do you typically use on a mild day?

Also need it to break down into ~4-foot sections.

Thanks

[David R Munson]

California Sunbounce makes the best reflectors and scrims I've used, period. MSE and Avenger stuff (and similar) is also great, but tends to be a bit less easy to work with and weighs a lot more. It will survive the apocalypse, however, so there's that.

For outdoor use, something that big is going to be quite the sail, too. I'd say you're going to want a couple big, heavy-duty steel stands with big grip heads on top and 3x 30lb bags on the base as a minimum, and if you get a good-sized gust that still may not be enough. One shoot I was on, we had a sunbuster umbrella on a stand, plus sand bags, plus ME HANGING ON THE STAND WITH MY FULL WEIGHT and it was still getting blown around. Not a typical situation, though. I'd recommend finding a large steel stand with a lazy leg for uneven ground, rather than c-stands. C-stands are great in the studio, but I don't like them much on location.

Will you need the full size 8x8? The scrim umbrellas are really handy on location and can be rigged easily on a large stand using a grip head and a cardellini clamp, or held by an assistant (a fighting belt from a big fishing shop makes a good place to stick the butt of the pole). They also serve double-duty as a large shoot-through umbrella with strobes if needed.

[David R Munson]

Specifically, I'm referring to this sort of stand (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/187161-REG/Matthews_369673_Hollywood_Combo_Steel_Stand.html). Two of those, two grip heads (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/3581-REG/Avenger_D200_D200_Grip_Head.html), and two Cardellini clamps (or similar (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/161531-REG/Matthews_420101_Matthellini_Clamp_3.html)) should be all you need to rig a big scrim effectively. That, and whatever sandbags you need to stabilize it, of course.

[vinny]

what david said regarding a frame of this size is all true. we use them on c stands only when indoors or out when it's a quick setup and no wind. Combo stands (stands with 4" grip heads on top) are really heavy and $$$ each so you need a bit of help.
The matthews frames don't break down to 4ft but do nest/screw together nicely. You can just order 4 corners/2 ears, a bunch of couplers and use your own square aluminum stock. I'm not familiar with the sunbounce stuff. The film industry uses two brands mainly, American stands/hardware and Matthews. American being the best/easiest to work with. Outside of hollywood, Matthews is much more popular. Also check Modern Studio Equipment in burbank, they have their own line of grip equipment and reasonable prices. They'll custom make anything you can dream up too.

[DrTang]

ScrimJim - used to have one

[vinny]

77117
This would be the best way to do it. Photo by Tommy Dangcil.

[David R Munson]

Vinny - this is why I'm always envious of shots of film sets. What is that, a 20x20' silk?

EDIT: Also, one of the things I really like about the Sunbounce gear is that it is so light and compact when it's broken down. When it's me, a photographer, and a single car, there just isn't all that much room. It probably wouldn't stand up to the same level of day-in-day-out abuse as the Matthews stuff, but the advantage is in mass and bulk.

[Frank Petronio]

Also, one of the things I really like about the Sunbounce gear is that it is so light and compact when it's broken down. When it's me, a photographer, and a single car, there just isn't all that much room. It probably wouldn't stand up to the same level of day-in-day-out abuse as the Matthews stuff, but the advantage is in mass and bulk.

This is the frustration with most photo lighting gear... I want to be able to travel and fly and move about without needing assistants and a van to carry it all... I already own two folding carts and my Lightware investment is more than my cameras.... but I like solid, professional quality stuff... not a bunch of Strobist crap duct-taped together.

[David R Munson]

It's definitely top-quality gear. Just made a video explaining how they go together, will link shortly...

[vinny]

that's irrigation pipe for the frame so probably 40ft. They get much bigger, and scarier. I saw a 20x20 snap two Mombo Combo stands in half once when a breeze kicked up.

Vinny - this is why I'm always envious of shots of film sets. What is that, a 20x20' silk?

EDIT: Also, one of the things I really like about the Sunbounce gear is that it is so light and compact when it's broken down. When it's me, a photographer, and a single car, there just isn't all that much room. It probably wouldn't stand up to the same level of day-in-day-out abuse as the Matthews stuff, but the advantage is in mass and bulk.

[David R Munson]

Vinny - you guys are nuts! Things rarely get so ridiculous on still sets, though I'm a little envious of that.

Frank - a quick video demonstrating a small Sunbounce panel I have on hand. (http://youtu.be/fJ7NP3plEpc)

[Frank Petronio]

Thanks David.

What would Chase Jarvis do?

[Robert Jonathan]

Am I the only one who thinks it's kind of weird/overkill for photographers to be using Avenger scrims for still photography? I mean, that's motion picture stuff (and yes, it's super awesome too).

I do like Matthews and Avenger grip and stands though, whether it's for motion or still.

I don't know about 8x8 foot scrims, but for still photography, why not get a Photoflex 77x77 inch aluminum frame (folds down to 39" long, to store in a bag). They have fabrics of all types.

Higher quality than Photoflex would be the 6.5x6.5 foot Lastolite Skylite frame that is used for the same purpose as the Photoflex. http://www.lastolite.us/large-skylite-frame-66-x-66

I don't own Photoflex or Lastolite, but I do have Calumet aluminum frames and fabrics, which are copies of the Dean Collins PVC frames made by Bogen back in the day, but they don't sell anything over 3.5x6.5 feet. Got a bunch of those frames.

[frotog]

I have the lastolites, scrim-jims and the california sunbounce. The build and design on the sunbounce is far superior to the others and well worth the cash if you plan to use it a lot. I have the sunbounce pro (6x4) and it's easily manageable in the field however the aforementioned warnings about safe rigging should definitely be heeded.

For stands I prefer alu-jr's and sr's like this one from manfrotto...http://www.manfrotto.us/3-section-black-alu-senior-stand-with-leveling-leg
I've never felt I needed the added strength of steel and I sure don't need the weight. Also, 30lb bags that can be filled on location are great when you have to travel by plane and don't have access to a rental house.

As for using cine stuff for still production....it lasts and can handle the wear and tear of the road and manic location tear-downs without being expendable like all the wedding photo crap discs and feather weight pik stands. But most importantly, it works the way it should.

[Frank Petronio]

Thanks, this is very useful ~

[Uri A]

I agree with all the gear advice you've been given in this thread, but would like to add a thought: It's not just about what you buy. You will need help.


I want to be able to travel and fly and move about without needing assistants and a van to carry it all... Don't take this the wrong way - I am not trying to insult you, but that's "strobist" thinking. If you want to roll like Lindbergh at Deauville, you will need a couple of strong fellas to rig for you. In seven years of assisting in Sydney, New York, L.A. and Paris I never saw anyone attempting a setup with a large scrim without (at least) two assistants.

Daylight modifiers are a crew thing. Even a simple reflector is useless without a trained assistant who knows how to read the light coming off it and adjust the angle as the conditions change and the model moves: I squirm every time I see one of those "reflector stands". With a scrim, you NEED assistants. Firstly because the stuff weighs a ton, secondly because it is hella dangerous no matter how many sandbags you use (I've chased scrims dragging their heavy stands down many a beach), and thirdly because even IF you managed to haul all that stuff to your location, set it up yourself, weighted it with 1000 bags and had no wind, you would be a sweating, ridiculous mess when you started directing your (bemused) model. Plus you would be looking over your shoulder every time the lethal monstrosity you built creaks instead of concentrating on the shoot.

Lastly, scrim light is great, but it almost always looks dead without some kick (reflector, strobe, HMI, etc), so that's where your second assistant comes in: one to hold the rig, the other to light from the front/side.

Having said all that, you have a great portfolio, a "rep" and skills you can pass on to the youngens, so if you can't afford "real" assistants, why not hire interns? Find a couple of kids who appreciate the chance to borrow one of your beater cameras and a few rolls of out-of-date Tri-X and show them how it's done.

[Peter De Smidt]

Uri is right. One of the guys I assist for loves flying big silks, even outside. While the air may seem calm, these can still get dangerous very quickly, c-stands and sandbags not-withstanding.

[Jim Michael]

I have a Chimera 4x4 that breaks down like you describe, but no experience using it outdoors. Here is one person's grip setup (http://www.chimeralighting.com/easy-travel-grip-and-lighting-package) that sounds similar to your description, although a little more flexible.